how do you feel about the current regulatory system for e-Bikes in the US?

[mikeschn]

On the bold, that may be true of your experience, but every bike I've had was/is equipped with a speedo....

My Giant Stance E+2 does not have a speedo out of the gate. I had to add one to know how fast I was going...

 

[tomjasz]

Part of my point is many don't and most regular non Ebikes don't

I had speedometers on all of my acoustic bikes. For 4 decades. Very common.

 

[AHicks]

Yup, me too. I really like the odometer function.

 

[AHicks]

Some trails exist because of horses & bicycles imagine if we just locked everybody out of the forest. That's just some food for thought we all have opinions. If think about your house might not exist if it weren't for trails

Have you ever spent any time riding a bike on a packed dirt trail frequented by horses? Depending on conditions, just in the course of a horse walking down a dirt trail, a hoof print is left for every step they make. Riding on those hoof prints can rattle your teeth out in some circumstances. NOT a pleasant experience....

 

[rtp]

I'm caught somewhere between totally not giving a s*it and wondering if a little more olive oil in my pizza dough recipe will really make it crispier

It does IMO, same as adding some sugar to the dough. At least to a point. I make dough for 4x 16”-ish pizzas and use around 2TBSP for 1000g flour. YMMV.
I’m stuck on 500*F on the current oven, but at least run it in convection mode and steels are SOOO much better than <the rest of the things - tiles, stones, blah blah>. My wife can’t LIFT the steel out all that easily though - 3/8” 16” circle (careful on sizing, literally very/just barely fits), ermine+ pre-heat..

 

[rtp]

Motorcycle guy here, love my throttle. My e bike is more of a tool for me and thus, when I want a lot more of an adrenaline rush I hop on one of the M/C's. Back on topic though, I think one reason Ca. isn't too restrictive with e bikes is that we are electric friendly here and we have a lot of BLM land available and we are allowed to use it. I've been riding off road motorcycles here for longer than I like to admit and not once have i been questioned. Just the opposite actually, the law enforcement folks are very personable when and if we make contact and they seem to like to talk motorcycles. Of course I'm always respectful of the environment and private land, pack out trash, etc, so that make a big difference in the attitude of others as well.

Jealous of the easy off-road M/C trail access, hasn’t been easy since I was in WA state. Have to pretty much trailer or do plated dual-sport but even then, most aren’t rideable to from where I’m at, at least not on the more dirt-focused plated dirt-bike dual-sports..

That’s kind of the issue in your last sentence, not that you, me, others are respectful where they ride and ride ‘appropriately for where they are’, but for those that don’t. Guys on Sur-Rons or custom ‘megawatt’ bikes doing 40+ on trails meant for 10-15MPH riders helps no one, and claiming ‘look, it has pedals’ is a bit disingenuous IMO.

I don’t ‘like’ having any limits, but realistically we need to co-exist to a point like the prior ‘fights’ with hikers, horse riders, MTB riders, etc.
I doubt ‘everyone’ winds up happy b/c no matter current or future regulations, it’s kind of tough to argue a throttle-driven 40MPH+ ‘electric motor-powered thing resembling a bike’ is closer to a bike vs motorcycle though.

Heck, if they imposed road speed limits of 30MPH for both analog and ebikes (excluding downhills), and 20-30mph limits on trails depending on the trail, well -tha oils be a pretty simple solution IMO, that’s not too bad overall. Limit throttle to half power or ensure it’s a linear type ramp vs on-off switch for both safety and trail integrity if you must.

 

[Gionnirocket]

It does IMO, same as adding some sugar to the dough. At least to a point. I make dough for 4x 16”-ish pizzas and use around 2TBSP for 1000g flour. YMMV.
I’m stuck on 500*F on the current oven, but at least run it in convection mode and steels are SOOO much better than <the rest of the things - tiles, stones, blah blah>. My wife can’t LIFT the steel out all that easily though - 3/8” 16” circle (careful on sizing, literally very/just barely fits), ermine+ pre-heat..

Sugar! Now that's pizza blasphemy!
I do add 2g of honey ..but thats to help feed the yeast on a 300g flour recipe... so I guess we're not doing things that different.
But I have to disagree on the Steels which are great, but in my experience the stone does draw out more moisture for a crispier crust. I now sit my stone on my steel for maximum heat retention but it does take near an hour to preheat up to 550°

 

[kmccune]

Neither bicycles nor horses belong on trails. That's my opinion. The problem is not one horse or one bicycle, the problem is masses of them. The only environmentally sensible solution is to disallow them.

Unless its a bike trail, it would be pretty bad to hear a "clickity-click" and then turn ,Ka-bam! Old railroad right of ways makes perfect riding trails.I do not think there are many hikers on MTB trails, we do not even have that problem around here there are really o bike trails close and gov't hiking trails allow no bikes, funny thing is I think Horses are allowed now and that is one thing that can really destroy a trail, back in the day it was foot travel only, no Hooves allowed.

 

[fuyume]

Some trails exist because of horses & bicycles imagine if we just locked everybody out of the forest. That's just some food for thought we all have opinions. If think about your house might not exist if it weren't for trails

It's not the 19th Century, anymore. The population of the Earth has exploded, and activities that once might have been low impact with sparse population are high impact with dense population.

Our society's unwillingness to grasp the basic facts of environmental damage are why the planet is not going to be able to support human civilization before the end of this century.

The "Leave No Trace" philosophy exists not just to protect the environment, but also out of courtesy to others, to ensure all people have equal access to Nature as unspoiled as possible, from the first user to the last.

 

[AHicks]

It's not the 19th Century, anymore. The population of the Earth has exploded, and activities that once might have been low impact with sparse population are high impact with dense population.

Our society's unwillingness to grasp the basic facts of environmental damage are why the planet is not going to be able to support human civilization before the end of this century.

The "Leave No Trace" philosophy exists not just to protect the environment, but also out of courtesy to others, to ensure all people have equal access to Nature as unspoiled as possible, from the first user to the last.

On the bold, most of us live where we do by choice. If you live in an area with dense population, you can love it or leave it, your call. There ARE still options, and will be for a long time.

On the rest of it, not that I don't agree with much of what you've written, but failing to understand how any of that has anything to do with allowing horses on bike trails.....

 

[fuyume]

failing to understand how any of that has anything to do with allowing horses on bike trails

Yes, that's quite clear.

 

[mschwett]

On the bold, most of us live where we do by choice. If you live in an area with dense population, you can love it or leave it, your call. There ARE still options, and will be for a long time.
….

very true. but we should all be responsible for the impacts on the environment / future generations that we create. and the unfortunate reality is that the wealthy and those who live in lower density environments (particularly suburban ones) have much greater impact. those impacts are often hard to measure and harder to see, but they’re very real.

eBikes are a great way to mitigate the transportation impacts of those choices.

until we invent zero energy teleportation for people and goods, re-establish lost biomass and habitat, and make renewable energy the norm, density is one of the best solutions we have to reduce and localize environmental impact. of course people are free to choose, but they shouldn’t be free to pass the impacts of their choices on to others and future generations without regard.

 

[rtp]

As somebody else that's high time motorcycle and been through motorcycle safety certification courses (first one was so much fun I took another!), geez, I don't know how I could agree more!! You NEED TO KNOW how fast you can stop that bike - on ANY surface!!!! That's a big deal if you ever plan on riding at more than a walking speed. And that's just one topic....

Be neat to see somebody come up with a performance e-bike course geared towards defensive/common sense riding rules. Maybe just a basic course, and another for those wanting more information? The motorcycle courses exposed me to MANY MANY different concepts that had never occurred to me, even though I'd been riding for 20 years when I took the course! I don't know that people should be forced to take a class like that, but I'm betting with the right format, there could be waiting lists to take them.... -Al

Yeah, very true. Did MSF, 'Advanced' MSF, several Police training courses, and a few others, including periodically after I had tons of ride time in, just to learn new things and sharpen skills.

Really, I think the 'problem areas' come in with a handful of people:
1. "I can do anything I want" - e.g. riding a SurRon on an alas MTB trail at 30MPH+ and/or damaging the trails.
2. "I have no/low experience but want to go fast everywhere/anywhere."

and the like. Speed and possibly (off-road) acceleration limits would suffice IMO, throttle or not. And hey, #2 can go buy an e-motorcycle with plates and all to go 40-50-+ on-road and not take it on analog/'low to normal power/speed ebike' trails.

 

[rtp]

True but when 20MPH is unsafe speed on 90+% of the trails one would think it should be lower.

Eh, there's also something called personal responsibility. I used to do a lot of (car) track events at Roebling, VIR, etc. Just because someone can take the long straight to 150mph and start braking at e.g. cone 3 before turn 1, doesn't mean everyone can. Ride within your limits and where posted, under/at the posted limits..simple enough. No need to lower limits from e.g. 20mph etc.

 

[rtp]

Seems like most of the riders here are speaking from a recreational rider perspective and don't understand the utility rider's perspective. As in your bike is used for transportation, shopping and commuting. It has an actual job.

Yeah, it's kind of tough as there are a range of specific use cases. I believe scooters are licensed/plated/insured though, so at what point is an 'e-bike' an e-scooter or e-motorcycle, from a non-self-serving standpoint? Probably somewhere around 30mph, throttle or not, etc.
While it is cool and I have no issues going 40mph on an 'e-bike,' some have no clue, so at some point it's got to become a 'scooter' or motorcycle..
?

I'm the opposite. I do almost zero recreational riding. But recently as many have seen (I posted the pictures everywhere I could find a place to do so) I did a week's worth of daily and twice daily riding in a national park filled with ebikes. Nobody had a speed issue and the authorities didn't care. Again... filled with ebikes (so much so I was surprised) and this included a company that actively rented them by the literal truckload on the park grounds. Why no speed issues? Because nobody was going too fast for conditions. Everyone was enjoying the park. You want to thrill seek... you can do that on the hill in your neighborhood. You go to the natl park to see the sights. I am sure there are exceptions to this but they are so small in number as to be invisible. I can say for sure I was the fastest rider in the park... except for one guy on an analog bike who clearly lived inside the park grounds and was commuting.

To utility riding: Speed is important. More of it is better. You try relying on 15 mph bicycle speeds when instead you can ride at 30, with speeds limits posted at 35, 40, 45 and 50 mph for auto traffic along your route. If you are riding with things to do, places to go etc., halving your speed is a suggestion nobody who actually *rides* will care to listen to. This presupposes you build bikes whose components are up to this challenge, and contrary to ordinary consumer understanding, such components do exist and are perfectly effective. But they are expensive.

I am not a 'throttler'. I ride a bicycle so I can do assisted pedaling. And I gear the bicycle so that pedaling at those speeds requires effort that ranges from gentle to strong (as I see fit for the moment). But I also use a throttle regularly. It is after all an ebike and this is 2022. Why on a tool that is there to use would you handicap yourself? Like having a hammer but refusing to use the claw to pull nails out. Throttles for utility (read cargo) riders are regarded as essential by pretty much the entire assisted population. You use them to get up to speed. From a stop, I'm throttling from about a 2-one-thousand count from a dead stop. From there I accelerate and cruise via pedal assist. If I need to make a light and need just a boost ... throttle. Why would you not if the alternative is to scrub off all that momentum (and you're not breaking any laws or endangering your safety doing it)? Again its the right tool for the job.

As for law enforcement, the 30 mph number has been bandied about as the safe limit. Having bikes that cruise at this speed if desired, I can say that limit is about 34 mph with a lightly loaded cargo bike on long, straight, smooth streets with a bike lane. I say that as thats about my limit on flat land if I am really working at it, and I have been both radar'd by motorcycle cops and paced by squad cars going that speed. And then they ignore me and move on. Remember I am presenting as a commuter rider, with steady and blinking rear and front lights, a downhill helmet with chin guard, and pedaling away as I go. If I was riding on some light motorcycle with pedals at 50 I'd be pulled over in a jiffy I am sure.

And none of this applies to riding on shared use paths. On those, given pedestrian intelligence and contrariness, sometimes 20 mph is double the safe speed. I have those in Monterey CA, where the paths are the preferred safe travel but my Class 3 + bike is dialed way back in gears and power for safety's sake. AND the electric-bicycle-mounted police don't give me any trouble.

Ebike regulation should be exactly what it is for autos: Behavior based. Put the elitism and the nosiness into other people's business in a drawer where it belongs. Act like a good citizen and be prepared to pay the consequences that already exist without any new bullshit regulations

Totally agree with the last line - making more regulations by people still without a clue leads nowhere, but we know they'll happen regardless.

 

[rtp]

You said a lot,BTW why would Horses be allowed on scenic trails rather than sensible EBikes? A Horse( of course) is a force to be reckoned with and can cause much damage, bicycles cab be a nuisance on public roads.Bike lanes and better infrastructure are whats needed. a test and bicycle license may help some( licenses do not seem to do much in America and they are handed out like candy on Halloween.
A bicycle is the only way some can enjoy trails. Everyone has an opinion, IMO sensible bikes and ebikes should be allowed on trails.( not those multi-thousand watt monsters( motorcycle in disguise)

No clue who you're calling 'you' or responding to.
Reality is for state and federal land there are various 'multi-use' trails, which include hiking, horses, bicycles and <some ebikes depending..>.

"A bicycle is the only way to enjoy trails' is kind of ignoring they're actually the latest to the game, let alone ebikes. There may of course be purpose-specific trails as well, but I wouldn't put $ on pushing 'the only thing on all trails are bikes'

 

[rtp]

huh? In order to have a maximum assist speed, the ebike must have a display which shows speed. As in it has a speedometer. they all do. Assist limits are applied to a bicycle via the display typically, not the controller or motor. Actually I want to say 'always' but I know the Bafang drives have an internal setting that can be used to apply a backup limiter, even though its always handled via the display the setting is there.

Bottom line though is to have a speed limiter you must have a speed-o-meter.

Usually, but it's not technically true. The display is just spitting out what the controller knows/has calculated from the speed sensor, wheel circumference etc.
Of course, most bikes also have a display of some kind, and even the limited ones show speed and something for battery, but no display - ok, can still cut assistance at <whatever max speed>, no?

 

[rtp]

Florida has recognized the 3 class system, and chosen to ignore it! E-bikes are good to go wherever bikes are!

Now if we can just get more dedicated bike lanes - something more advanced/safer than painted white lines....

I have to give them the fact they are working on it, but infrastructure like that takes time and money.

NC as well, but there are some very nice Federal parks which are mostly e-bike off-limits. :-/

 

[rtp]

Have you ever spent any time riding a bike on a packed dirt trail frequented by horses? Depending on conditions, just in the course of a horse walking down a dirt trail, a hoof print is left for every step they make. Riding on those hoof prints can rattle your teeth out in some circumstances. NOT a pleasant experience....

Yep, but reality is some 'multi-use' include horses. I'd rather not fight 'kick horses out' vs 'let reasonable ebikes ride on multi-use trails.'
I also had an easement through the prior property for...horses, because someone, sometime, long back - had horses. :-/

No inherent dislike of them, but certainly any multi-use including e.g., horses, hiking, bikes, ebikes are more likely to be double-track flatter trails..

 

[Roamers]

NC as well, but there are some very nice Federal parks which are mostly e-bike off-limits. :-/

Are they also analog bike off-limits?

Although each park superintendent has final say, it looks like the "general rule" allows ebikes. I have not yet taken ebike to NP, but my brother regularly uses his Class 2 for the last 3 years.

Electric Bicycles (e-bikes) in National Parks - Biking (U.S. National Park Service)

Learn more about e-bikes in the national parks.

www.nps.gov