how do you feel about the current regulatory system for e-Bikes in the US?

[rtp]

Are they also analog bike off-limits?

Although each park superintendent has final say, it looks like the "general rule" allows ebikes. I have not yet taken ebike to NP, but my brother regularly uses his Class 2 for the last 3 years.

Electric Bicycles (e-bikes) in National Parks - Biking (U.S. National Park Service)

Learn more about e-bikes in the national parks.

www.nps.gov

It's...confusing. Try to sort which trails are ok for e-bikes at Pisgah. I can't quite manage to get much clarity honestly..
Trailforks shows 437 MTB trails but only 53 for ebike. Can't locate the more 'official' link at the moment, but it's quite confusing.

Pisgah on Trailforks

Pisgah Mountain Bike, E-Bike, Horse, Hike, Trail Running trails, North Carolina. 608 trails with 2,093 photos

www.trailforks.com

 

[m@Robertson]

On the bold, that may be true of your experience, but every bike I've had was/is equipped with a speedo....

And in California at least, in order for a bike to be legally a part of the 3-class system it is required to display speed to the rider.

Its written right into the law. But so is a class sticker and I see those are ignored widely. So there's that... manufacturers don't really worry about the actual finer points of the law (which goes all the way back to the fact that all 750w motors are unlawful since they all - with I think only one or two exceptions - specify 'less than 750', which is 749.

 

[m@Robertson]

Usually, but it's not technically true. The display is just spitting out what the controller knows/has calculated from the speed sensor, wheel circumference etc.
Of course, most bikes also have a display of some kind, and even the limited ones show speed and something for battery, but no display - ok, can still cut assistance at <whatever max speed>, no?

I think you are restating my point, which was that regardless of whether speed is displayed, the ebike is still calculating that speed because it has to know same in order to perform the speed cutoff. Ergo all ebikes have a speedometer. Also as noted elsewhere (I'm losing track of all the similar arguments going on here) it is a legal requirement in at least some states that a speed display is on the bike - in a world where manufacturers admittedly don't pay much attention to the laws of the various lands (i.e. states).

so at what point is an 'e-bike' an e-scooter or e-motorcycle, from a non-self-serving standpoint?

My response is always something along the lines of "show me a motorcycle you can pedal" if someone asks me why I don't just buy a motorcycle. A more complete answer would involve "pedal meaningfully for good exercise" as I would not want to include those stupid light motorcycles with vestigial pedals that have "wink wink" written all over them. So for me, if you can pedal it for-reals its an ebike.

 

[Roamers]

It's...confusing. Try to sort which trails are ok for e-bikes at Pisgah. I can't quite manage to get much clarity honestly..
Trailforks shows 437 MTB trails but only 53 for ebike. Can't locate the more 'official' link at the moment, but it's quite confusing.

Pisgah on Trailforks

Pisgah Mountain Bike, E-Bike, Horse, Hike, Trail Running trails, North Carolina. 608 trails with 2,093 photos

www.trailforks.com

I was thinking multi-use. Mountain bike trails are a different thing that I don't pop into my head since I'm not a mountain biker. My son and family are into mountain bikes and they don't recall going on an trail that doesn't prohibit ebikes. As a trail maintainer, they are fully against the aded wear because of speed and additional users ebikes would bring.

 

[mschwett]

I think you are restating my point, which was that regardless of whether speed is displayed, the ebike is still calculating that speed because it has to know same in order to perform the speed cutoff. Ergo all ebikes have a speedometer…

not sure if you’re being intentionally facetious here, but a speedometer is not a speed “sensor.” a speedometer is a device which displays the speed of a vehicle.

 

[rtp]

I was thinking multi-use. Mountain bike trails are a different thing that I don't pop into my head since I'm not a mountain biker. My son and family are into mountain bikes and they don't recall going on an trail that doesn't prohibit ebikes. As a trail maintainer, they are fully against the aded wear because of speed and additional users ebikes would bring.

Yeah, which is kind of the basis of 'some level of limits are appropriate,' as e.g. eMTBs <= 20mph or 28mph in most cases don't add significant trail 'wear,' while e.g. 'e-motorcycles' just like my DRZ and other dirt bikes - do. Possible the multi-use may be the only ones open at Pisgah - need to make a trip sometime soon but trying to track down 'the official written word' before being disappointed. Happy to unplug my throttle and keep <= 20 (or less, many mtb trail single-track is more like single-digit to 15mph or so in many places anyways) but chasing down 'what's the official and real policy?' has not been all that simple.

 

[rtp]

I think you are restating my point, which was that regardless of whether speed is displayed, the ebike is still calculating that speed because it has to know same in order to perform the speed cutoff. Ergo all ebikes have a speedometer. Also as noted elsewhere (I'm losing track of all the similar arguments going on here) it is a legal requirement in at least some states that a speed display is on the bike - in a world where manufacturers admittedly don't pay much attention to the laws of the various lands (i.e. states).

Maybe, and me too. Apologies if so, might have even quoted the wrong post - I know someone stated no speedos, etc. Moving on.

My response is always something along the lines of "show me a motorcycle you can pedal" if someone asks me why I don't just buy a motorcycle. A more complete answer would involve "pedal meaningfully for good exercise" as I would not want to include those stupid light motorcycles with vestigial pedals that have "wink wink" written all over them. So for me, if you can pedal it for-reals its an ebike.

True but if e.g. scooters with speeds > 30mph (estimated, I don't have interest in scooters, but see DUI offenders riding them on license loss) require a license/registration/insurance for road use, as do motorcycles, speed has to come into it somewhere RE: 'not treated as an ebike.' I'd say a 3KW hub motor 'e-bike' with pedals is pretty much in the same category of 'wink wink,' so where's the reasonable line? IMO it's around 30mph or so, pedals or not (and if they do anything or not) etc.

 

[m@Robertson]

not sure if you’re being intentionally facetious here, but a speedometer is not a speed “sensor.” a speedometer is a device which displays the speed of a vehicle.

Using this (unnecessarily narrow) definition, since we have no dashboard we have no speedometer. Shame on Oxford for that obvious-to-all misstep that seems to be automobile-centric. These are weeds we don't need to go off into.

The point of the discussion was that there is in fact a speed sensing device on the bicycle and that statements to the contrary only applied to a display of said known, calculated speed etc. etc. blah blah blah.

 

[mschwett]

True but if e.g. scooters with speeds > 30mph (estimated, I don't have interest in scooters, but see DUI offenders riding them on license loss) require a license/registration/insurance for road use, as do motorcycles, speed has to come into it somewhere RE: 'not treated as an ebike.' I'd say a 3KW hub motor 'e-bike' with pedals is pretty much in the same category of 'wink wink,' so where's the reasonable line? IMO it's around 30mph or so, pedals or not (and if they do anything or not) etc.

it would be interesting to see if there’s any actual science on this, but IMO 30mph is way too fast for unlicensed/uninsured/unregistered vehicles. i have a 1.5kw scooter which is limited to 24mph and that feels very fast on a scooter. tiny wheels, horrible aerodynamics, borderline balance etc. it’s fun and very useful but even 24mph is really pushing it - i enjoy it and am not overly risk averse but other able-bodied adults i know find it terrifying and unsafe.

if i got make this up myself i might propose something like no fixed power limit up to 20mph to allow for tandems, cargo bikes, hills, and heavy riders, but a maximum power multiple of 8x rider power, a maximum power output of 300w above 20mph with no cutoff speed (physics will take care of the rest) and a maximum vehicle weight of 80lb. and then i’d try and make it consistent nationally that any such vehicle be allowed anywhere bicycles are.

 

[mschwett]

Using this (unnecessarily narrow) definition, since we have no dashboard we have no speedometer. Shame on Oxford for that obvious-to-all misstep that seems to be automobile-centric. These are weeds we don't need to go off into.

The point of the discussion was that there is in fact a speed sensing device on the bicycle and that statements to the contrary only applied to a display of said known, calculated speed etc. etc. blah blah blah.

sort of. a “dashboard” is the part of a vehicle which faces the driver and contains the controls and readouts. so the bars of a bike are the dashboard. they face the driver (rider) and have controls on them.

ironically, the only bike i have with a built in speed display is on the top tube

 

[m@Robertson]

True but if e.g. scooters with speeds > 30mph (estimated, I don't have interest in scooters, but see DUI offenders riding them on license loss) require a license/registration/insurance for road use, as do motorcycles, speed has to come into it somewhere RE: 'not treated as an ebike.' I'd say a 3KW hub motor 'e-bike' with pedals is pretty much in the same category of 'wink wink,' so where's the reasonable line? IMO it's around 30mph or so, pedals or not (and if they do anything or not) etc.

... meh. For me, with my bikes easily attaining 30 mph, and being able to pedal hard at 34 mph and attracting no adverse attention from law enforcement (and believe me they notice) AND being able to (in my younger days) pedal an analog road bike at a sustained 34 mph, I see it differently but I do understand where you're coming from. But me having been there and done that for many years, I'm going to come down to a different place. First of all, its possible and not uncommon to use bicycle parts that can safely handle these speeds. They're just expensive and most "builders" don't use proper parts to go with the speeds their slapdash contraptions can attain. So the common perception is a bicycle is unsafe at such speeds.

I would put that reasonable line - assuming proper equipment - at about 40 mph (I do recognize CA's moped speed is max'd at 30 mph). Now... slamming on good brakes at 40 mph on a bike meant to achieve those speeds via tire, wheel and frame construction is going to end badly. no matter what the vehicle is stressed for. So if operating at this level I can see some sort of license being required just like a motorcycle rider.

30 is not a *bad* cap. But if we are going to rewrite the rules, we may as well be realistic about it. I ride at 34 pretty consistently thanks to how I geared it on my 2wd hub bike and I get a great workout.

My vote for a Class 4 would be first and foremost - utility bikes only. No pleasure use bikes. Allow throttle. Allow a top speed of 28 - behaviorally, not mechanically governed) just like Class 3 (my thinking is that 28 is all crap anyway and reality is the cops don't pay attention up into the mid 30's) and no power limit (or give it a 4k limit which is about right for a 2wd bike that has a pair of 750w motors and a 52v battery). This recognizes the reality of cargo bikes - and heavy riders - where its asinine to think someone can carry a shopping cart full of groceries plus themselves up a hill at any speed with a mere 749w peak motor. Nobody follows the law. All such bikes dramatically exceed the legal limit and anyone who can do simple math knows this. That same 4kw bike going up a hill loaded is doing it at 10 mph.

 

[m@Robertson]

sort of. a “dashboard” is the part of a vehicle which faces the driver and contains the controls and readouts. so the bars of a bike are the dashboard. they face the driver (rider) and have controls on them.

I could go back and edit and rewrite 'speedometer' to 'speed sensing device' or something. Lets check with Forum Linguistics Command

OK thats it. I'd have been happy to go back and change my posts but the authorities have spoken.

 

[mschwett]

... meh. For me, with my bikes easily attaining 30 mph, and being able to pedal hard at 34 mph and attracting no adverse attention from law enforcement (and believe me they notice) AND being able to (in my younger days) pedal an analog road bike at a sustained 34 mph…

you should have been a professional cyclist. 34mph on flat ground without a tailwind using nothing but your legs? that takes almost 1,000w of power, which even a tour de france winner can’t sustain for more than a minute or two.

i ride a lot, and almost none of the thousands of roadies i see are going faster than 25mph on level ground, which totally lines up with the capabilities of a reasonably fit human.

 

[rtp]

it would be interesting to see if there’s any actual science on this, but IMO 30mph is way too fast for unlicensed/uninsured/unregistered vehicles. i have a 1.5kw scooter which is limited to 24mph and that feels very fast on a scooter. tiny wheels, horrible aerodynamics, borderline balance etc. it’s fun and very useful but even 24mph is really pushing it - i enjoy it and am not overly risk averse but other able-bodied adults i know find it terrifying and unsafe.

if i got make this up myself i might propose something like no fixed power limit up to 20mph to allow for tandems, cargo bikes, hills, and heavy riders, but a maximum power multiple of 8x rider power, a maximum power output of 300w above 20mph with no cutoff speed (physics will take care of the rest) and a maximum vehicle weight of 80lb. and then i’d try and make it consistent nationally that any such vehicle be allowed anywhere bicycles are.

Unsure if you mean a 'kick scooter' (powered skateboard with bars) versus a 'step-through moped' type of scooter.
Kind of interesting looking at laws across mopeds and scooters in the US, e.g. NY requires a motorcycle endorsement for mopeds (they have pedals too, remember) over 30mph, or driver license only if <= 30mph. A significant # of states seem to require licenses for even lower-speed mopeds (e.g. 50cc, top speeds of perhaps 30-40mph), so yeah - I'm back at I think ebike speed limits before existing similar laws take precendence have arguable impact...is probably 30mph or less if we agree with it or not...

Moped Laws: United States

www.mopedarmy.com

Moped, Scooter, E-Bike & Motorcycle Differences

Find out the differences between a moped, scooter and e-bike and whether a license and insurance is needed.

www.statefarm.com

This is fairly typical wording on lower-powered moped, with or without pedals, for example:

Motor Scooter and Moped Laws By State - Wolf Brand Scooters

Easy to use, FREE search tool! This article will answer ALL your questions....

wolfbrandscooters.com

- Has motor that is no bigger than 50 cc.
- Can not go faster than 30 mph on level ground.
- Has an automatic transmission

If your motor-driven bike does not meet the above requirements, then it is most likely classified as a motorcycle, which has different regulations and requirements.

You need to be at least 15 years old in order to drive a moped, and have a valid Georgia drivers license. You can only drive your moped on a public road that has a speed limit of 35 mph or less, and you must always wear a helmet.

Unlike motorcycles and motorized scooters, mopeds do not need to be titled or registered.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Just double checked and I'm pretty sure that I don't give a s*it....

But on the other hand, pizza... Good.....

ming' those roasted peppers

 

[mschwett]

Unsure if you mean a 'kick scooter' (powered skateboard with bars) versus a 'step-through moped' type of scooter.
Kind of interesting looking at laws across mopeds and scooters in the US, e.g. NY requires a motorcycle endorsement for mopeds (they have pedals too, remember) over 30mph, or driver license only if <= 30mph. A significant # of states seem to require licenses for even lower-speed mopeds (e.g. 50cc, top speeds of perhaps 30-40mph), so yeah - I'm back at I think ebike speed limits before existing similar laws take precendence have arguable impact...is probably 30mph or less if we agree with it or not...

Moped Laws: United States

www.mopedarmy.com

Moped, Scooter, E-Bike & Motorcycle Differences

Find out the differences between a moped, scooter and e-bike and whether a license and insurance is needed.

www.statefarm.com

This is fairly typical wording on lower-powered moped, with or without pedals, for example:

Motor Scooter and Moped Laws By State - Wolf Brand Scooters

Easy to use, FREE search tool! This article will answer ALL your questions....

wolfbrandscooters.com

i always forget there were scooters before the stand up electric kind! i mean an electric skateboard with wheels type, two wheels, upright bar, a pair of 750w direct drive motors, one per wheel.

 

[rtp]

Just double checked and I'm pretty sure that I don't give a s*it....

But on the other hand, pizza... Good.....
View attachment 123152

ming' those roasted peppers

This is all I have to say about that. (yeah, they're not shiny, found convection is more consistent but - beats the not-from-NY/etc bagel shops anyways..)

 

[rtp]

i always forget there were scooters before the stand up electric kind! i mean an electric skateboard with wheels type, two wheels, upright bar, a pair of 750w direct drive motors, one per wheel.

Yeah, not so sure on 30mph+ on one of those although there's at least one crazy video out there of a dude zipping down a highway on one..

 

[m@Robertson]

you should have been a professional cyclist. 34mph on flat ground without a tailwind using nothing but your legs? that takes almost 1,000w of power, which even a tour de france winner can’t sustain for more than a minute or two.

i ride a lot, and almost none of the thousands of roadies i see are going faster than 25mph on level ground, which totally lines up with the capabilities of a reasonably fit human.

On the TDF, actually yes they can do that speed 35+) for extended periods thanks to the wind resistance breaks you get from the peloton and team riding. Your roadies that you are riding around are not employing this technique hence their slower speed. You can see it best in breakaway groups where there are fewer riders and its easy to watch the technique. They use a constantly rotating kind of chain where you are only at the front for a few seconds, taking a turn breaking the wind for everyone and then you move immediately back to the back of the pack, and work your way up to do your 10 seconds of pain. Everyone does that moving constantly. If you have the legs for it you can do 30+ for quite some time as you are only doing peak effort for a few seconds interspersed with much longer rest breaks.

In a different life I was pretty close. 135 lbs, 34 inseam. Could not float in the pool cuz no body fat. Cycling every day for long miles. I mentioned to the mechanics @ the LBS this morning (picking up some parts for a weekend upgrade) that every morning in college I rode from Fresno State @ the dorms to Shaver Lake and back again (as part of an observation that my days doing that and shredding were long gone). Google that route and check the elevation change. The 4-lane on the way down the mountainside made the suffering of the uphill worth it, but its not for the inexpert. Riding with a couple of pro road riders where this was morning training - and a couple more club race amateurs. I was the only one who was a commuter who didn't own a car.

And that was back in I think 1984. My bike was a Vitus 979, 59 cm frame, with Mavic SSC (Special Service Course) components that were used on IIRC all but one of the TDF teams, which was part of why I picked the parts and then built the bike myself. That bike weighed under 20 lbs which at that time was almost unheard of (the USA Olympic bikes busted that wide open about then), but excepting that frame it was a professional level bike that used parts designed to get beat on (no Campagnolo pretty bits). 175mm crankarms, 54T x 42T front chainrings and almost a straight-block in back: 12-13-14-17-19-21.

As an aside in the middle of one long aside: You know what I learned from having the best, lightest, most durable bike you could have? It didn't do squat to make you a better rider. You still had to bust your ass to pedal it. All the expensive parts in the world changed very little except durability.

 

[mschwett]

On the TDF, actually yes they can do that speed 35+) for extended periods thanks to the wind resistance breaks you get from the peloton and team riding. Your roadies that you are riding around are not employing this technique hence their slower speed. You can see it best in breakaway groups where there are fewer riders and its easy to watch the technique. They use a constantly rotating kind of chain where you are only at the front for a few seconds, taking a turn breaking the wind for everyone and then you move immediately back to the back of the pack, and work your way up to do your 10 seconds of pain. Everyone does that moving constantly. If you have the legs for it you can do 30+ for quite some time as you are only doing peak effort for a few seconds interspersed with much longer rest breaks.

In a different life I was pretty close. 135 lbs, 34 inseam. Could not float in the pool cuz no body fat. Cycling every day for long miles. I mentioned to the mechanics @ the LBS this morning (picking up some parts for a weekend upgrade) that every morning in college I rode from Fresno State @ the dorms to Shaver Lake and back again (as part of an observation that my days doing that and shredding were long gone). Google that route and check the elevation change. The 4-lane on the way down the mountainside made the suffering of the uphill worth it, but its not for the inexpert. Riding with a couple of pro road riders where this was morning training - and a couple more club race amateurs. I was the only one who was a commuter who didn't own a car.

And that was back in I think 1984. My bike was a Vitus 979, 59 cm frame, with Mavic SSC (Special Service Course) components that were used on IIRC all but one of the TDF teams, which was part of why I picked the parts and then built the bike myself. That bike weighed under 20 lbs which at that time was almost unheard of (the USA Olympic bikes busted that wide open about then), but excepting that frame it was a professional level bike that used parts designed to get beat on (no Campagnolo pretty bits). 175mm crankarms, 54T x 42T front chainrings and almost a straight-block in back: 12-13-14-17-19-21.

As an aside in the middle of one long aside: You know what I learned from having the best, lightest, most durable bike you could have? It didn't do squat to make you a better rider. You still had to bust your ass to pedal it. All the expensive parts in the world changed very little except durability.

average speed on flat terrain in the tour is 25-28mph… in the peloton/pack. yes, huge benefit of riding in groups but the idea that anyone is riding a self powered bike on flat land at a sustained 30mph? not even peter sagan!

agreed on the fancy bikes - the bike is such a simple machine, so efficient at converting pedal movement to forward speed that all the tech really is pretty incremental. a mph or two here or there. the big difference is how great a really light high tech bike feels, rather than some big boost in speed. things like more compliant carbon frames, electronic shifting, wider tubeless tires at lower pressures really make the ride more pleasant/satisfying. not much faster