Help me to choose decent commuter class 2/3 combined, optimal budget <=3k

[ElevenAD]

Chart is junk when it comes to the "pedal operated" first column. Unless maybe somebody can explain to me why/how a class 3 is pedal operated while a class 2 is not.

class 2 means your bike has a throttle and can achieve 20mph without the need for pedaling, so any bike that can reach 20mph with just throttle is class2, class 3 is a bike with a motor that will continue to assist you up to 28mph when pedaling. any bike that will allows you to throttle alone past 20mph is in the moped territory. in other words 20mph is the limit for just using throttle(class2), 28mph is the limit only if your using pedal assist.

 

[AHicks]

Hey Skippy.... you can buy a bike, you know... a whole bike, preassembled and everything, not a box of "components" and hang a mid-drive on it (you can have someone do it for you). Or if you are the type that thinks a hub-motor is worth bothering with (not) go that route. It still amazes me that people will choose an inexpensive off-the-shelf POS ebike rather than even try to get their hands dirty. It's not hard for anyone that isn't afraid to even give it a try. The huge payoff is owning an ebike that is a cut above the rest in every aspect that you want, some are happy with the minimum, other aren't

Dude, this is lot's of baseless opinion with little fact and many assumptions.

For starters, you're assuming everyone was born with the ability to source the size and type of the perfect battery for instance, or instinctively select a mid drive over a hub drive. Where did you get that ability, and why would you just assume everyone is capable of making these calls? Or are you just selecting the biggest from what's available and calling that "best"?

Or maybe you could supply some of the criteria you used to select and source out the components you used to build your "cut above" bike, the ones that make it superior to any available production bike?

Or maybe this is all cheap talk based on wishful thinking and you don't even own an e-bike?

 

[AHicks]

class 2 means your bike has a throttle and can achieve 20mph without the need for pedaling, so any bike that can reach 20mph with just throttle is class2, class 3 is a bike with a motor that will continue to assist you up to 28mph when pedaling. any bike that will allows you to throttle alone past 20mph is in the moped territory. in other words 20mph is the limit for just using throttle(class2), 28mph is the limit only if your using pedal assist.

I understand the class distinctions fairly well. What I don't understand is why that first column of that chart says "no" for pedals. Clearly pedaling is an optional mode. If they had chosen "yes" for instance, wouldn't that make more sense?

 

[BBassett]

I understand the class distinctions fairly well. What I don't understand is why that first column of that chart says "no" for pedals. Clearly pedaling is an optional mode. If they had chosen "yes" for instance, wouldn't that make more sense?

So everyone now is agreed? All ebikes are and have to be, fully operable bicycles... pedals and all. Cool.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

@AHicks , @BBassett:
I thought understanding the law was one of American virtues. Please discuss this:

Bill Text - AB-1096 Vehicles: electric bicycles.

AB 1096 Vehicles: electric bicycles.

leginfo.legislature.ca.gov

It is the model law although fully valid for a single U.S. State. Yet that's the law that precisely defined e-bike Classes.

 

[AHicks]

Stefan, I've ridden several thousand e-bike miles, with much of that riding spent on multi use trails in Mi and Fl. I spend a lot of time here reading about others and sharing my experiences, and NEVER have I seen or been affected by the fact I'm riding a class 2 bike (with pedals AND throttle) on trails where the throttle is forbidden. If there was an exception, it was a cop I read about, that sat in a staging area someplace, ticketing those he saw accelerate to riding speed (0-3mph maybe) without using the pedals. That is a pretty much perfect description of anal. If somebody sees the purpose in issueing a ticket for that, I'll take it and deal with it without a second thought. It would be very different if people were getting ticketed left and right. That would mean I would have to remove/disconnect/disable my throttle temporarily for use on class 1 trails where enforcement was likely.

It's a stupid rule, and pretty much universally ignored. Do as you like. Not going to argue the point any further. -Al

 

[BBassett]

@AHicks , @BBassett:
I thought understanding the law was one of American virtues. Please discuss this:

Bill Text - AB-1096 Vehicles: electric bicycles.

AB 1096 Vehicles: electric bicycles.

leginfo.legislature.ca.gov

It is the model law although fully valid for a single U.S. State. Yet that's the law that precisely defined e-bike Classes.

Sorry... wrong. The Consumer Protection Safety Act (CPSA) set the definition for ebikes several years ago and California is the leader in ebike classes and trying to set the standard.

 

[BBassett]

Dude, this is lot's of baseless opinion with little fact and many assumptions.

For starters, you're assuming everyone was born with the ability to source the size and type of the perfect battery for instance, or instinctively select a mid drive over a hub drive. Where did you get that ability, and why would you just assume everyone is capable of making these calls? Or are you just selecting the biggest from what's available and calling that "best"?

Or maybe you could supply some of the criteria you used to select and source out the components you used to build your "cut above" bike, the ones that make it superior to any available production bike?

Or maybe this is all cheap talk based on wishful thinking and you don't even own an e-bike?

"For starters..." <pompus little belly scratch-n-burp> I really don't assume much. Let Me Tell Ya Something! <Fire Marshall Bill voice>, I started reading, researching, and searching the internet extensively. Reading what others have written about long-distance touring on standard bikes both pros and cons. Other than a couple of services and modifications to frame, front rack and trailer everything I own is bought online to include the batteries 52V lithium packs (30Ah @ 58.8V, 1.764Kh). It took all of about 1 hour to decide that hub-motors are for kids and seniors bikes, not for anything that will include any serious climbing or looking at 100-mile ranges on a regular basis. This quiet-simply was the easiest decision I made. The "ability" to do so is just using your mind and not believing something from anyone trying to sell something. Listen to riders, listen to people that have experience and aren't trying to make money from that experience. Do I assume others have the same ability? I don't assume... but it's easy to see they don't with all these $999.00 Blue Light specials running 12 to 15 miles one way and then slowly riding back to the car with depleted (partially destroyed) batteries. No, to answer your question I didn't turn to the largest motor I could find... not at 1st but I do have a BBSHD mounted now... live and learn, that's part of the process.

How did I pick the bike I ride now? Common sense. I decided what I wanted to use the bike for the majority of the time, which is touring and long daily rides. If you want to crash down hills, doing jumps and activating your insurance policy you don't need a dynamo-hub, do you? I knew already I wanted full suspension so that limited the field to two frames, both German and Reese & Muller bikes are more designed for commuting than serious touring. I have never been one to collect bikes, I can only ride one at a time (I only have one butt) and wanted the best all-around ebike I could piece together. With that decision made I looked for the "best" suspended touring frame built and since R&M was out that left Tout Terrain's Panamericana. After some research, I determined a mid-drive would fit nicely. When you start with one of the best bikes produced (for whatever type of riding you want) you are already starting with something superior. How did I then take that bike to the next level? 1st by mounting a 750W mid-drive that sent all its power into the world's best internal geared hub, a 14 speed Rohloff Speed-hub. The two go together like hookers and condoms. Mounting the afore mentioned dynamo-hub for charging electronics. 26" 36 spoke wheels and 2.5" Marathon touring rubber, not great for traction but very good on mitigating rolling resistance. The largest hydraulic disc brakes that would fit the frame 180mm... I wish I could have mounted 200+mm. After "researching" Lithium batteries and their idiosyncrasies it was easy to see that the larger the pack the more advantages you get, more range, faster charging, more range, less time swapping batteries, more range, less over-all weight if you are carrying the same Watt-Hours in several smaller packs... did I mention more range? A top-quality headlight that works with the dynamo-hub. A great front air fork. A FAIV suspended front rack... amazing and I have never seen another one anywhere. Great Arkel water-proof panniers and bar-bag plus other various bags. Trekking bars able to hold everything necessary for touring. An adjustable stem for altering the ride position when/if necessary and a built-in handle-bar lock that is fantastically helpful especially with fully loaded. Mirrors... undoubtedly the most important single safety item you can own, better even than my Garmin radar/light. And of course a great set of fenders... usually overlooked by most part-time riders. I am omitting many of the do-dads and toys that hang on the bike since we are discussing a superior bike build. But I mentioned things like panniers that are a huge determining factor in picking a frame when you are going to do more than ride out of your garage every day. The frame also determines how big and where your battery will be located.

So... yes, a Cut Above anything being produced today. Is that enough criteria or would you like me to expand on the minutiae because I can go on for hours? As far as "baseless opinion" is concerned the above-described bike has more than 10K opinion-basing miles on her and another 3 or 4 thousand coming next year. Want to discuss a superior bike trailer build too... because I have a fair amount of experience in that also?

AHick - "Or maybe this is all cheap talk based on wishful thinking and you don't even own an e-bike?"
Sorry kiddo, wrong again. -

I don't talk about things I don't have experience with unless I am asking questions on how to do it better. You should try that sometime.

Thanks, this was fun. Glad to help.

 

[BBassett]

Stefan, I've ridden several thousand e-bike miles, with much of that riding spent on multi use trails in Mi and Fl. I spend a lot of time here reading about others and sharing my experiences, and NEVER have I seen or been affected by the fact I'm riding a class 2 bike (with pedals AND throttle) on trails where the throttle is forbidden. If there was an exception, it was a cop I read about, that sat in a staging area someplace, ticketing those he saw accelerate to riding speed (0-3mph maybe) without using the pedals. That is a pretty much perfect description of anal. If somebody sees the purpose in issueing a ticket for that, I'll take it and deal with it without a second thought. It would be very different if people were getting ticketed left and right. That would mean I would have to remove/disconnect/disable my throttle temporarily for use on class 1 trails where enforcement was likely.

It's a stupid rule, and pretty much universally ignored. Do as you like. Not going to argue the point any further. -Al

People find reasons to disregard and/or outright break laws every minute of the day, not smart but "pretty much universal". Where it matters is when something goes badly wrong and you are on an illegal ebike at the wrong place and time. I was involved in an automobile/ebike altercation and the police officer took pictures of the bike and motor noting it's wattage and configuration. You have the right to do anything you want no matter how stupid if you are willing to deal with the consequences of your actions. The laws and restrictions to ebike aren't there to ruin "your" day... they are there to protect others mostly. A Class-1 ebike can ride anywhere a bicycle is allowed to ride... at least in America... eh?

 

[AHicks]

Clearly, my point has been missed. You fail to justify how your "perfect bike" might suit MY needs. Or is this supposed to be YOUR perfect bike only? If this bike represents an attempt at being YOUR perfect bike only, surely others may have different needs for how THEY plan on using their bike, no? For instance, lugging around the weight of a battery the size of yours when they could charge one half that size once a week after riding it 4-5 times. From your "perfect bike" suggestions you've mentioned so far, it would appear that in your mind, a bike like yours is the only solution to a set of universal needs.

That's pure horse puckey (IMHO of course).

It should be plain to see there are nearly as many "perfect" bikes as there are riders, and of those, production bikes can come very close to meeting their needs much of the time. And yes, I have built several custom bikes.

Currently riding a Rad City that has only the original frame and front wheel. The rest is aftermarket. So it's a hybrid! I may build the next bike, or I may buy a production bike that's very close to meeting my needs and change it as required. In either case, when done, it would be MY perfect bike!

As far as the class 2 rules, what I said earlier is my opinion, and my experience. That, and they're going to need a pretty darn nice camera to see the wattage on any motor I've ever owned..... as they aren't shown anywhere.

Worst case here is they can ticket a 70 year old senior for having a throttle equipped bike on a Class 1 trail. Go for it....

I could go on as well, but out of consideration for band width and other people's time, I'm done here too.

 

[BBassett]

Clearly, my point has been missed....

Clearly, my point has been missed. You fail to justify how your "perfect bike" might suit MY needs. Why would I try to justify any thing to you or anyone else? Or is this supposed to be YOUR perfect bike only? Of course, it's "my" perfect bike and only mine. If this bike represents an attempt at being YOUR perfect bike only, surely others may have different needs for how THEY plan on using their bike, no? For instance, lugging around the weight of a battery the size of yours when they could charge one half that size once a week after riding it 4-5 times. You are absolutely correct... for anyone riding to the end of the driveway and back, although my brother inlaws driveway in Montana is 18 miles long. From your "perfect bike" suggestions you've mentioned so far, it would appear that in your mind, a bike like yours is the only solution to a set of universal needs. Nope, just covering the widest spectrum of those "needs".

That's pure horse puckey (IMHO of course). Of course.

It should be plain to see there are nearly as many "perfect" bikes as there are riders, and of those, production bikes can come very close to meeting their needs much of the time. And yes, I have built several custom bikes. Production bikes yes, production ebike No, that's why there are so many topics on trying to get higher speeds or more range, mostly how to go low-rent.

Currently riding a Rad City that has only the original frame and front wheel. The rest is aftermarket. So it's a hybrid! I may build the next bike, or I may buy a production bike that's very close to meeting my needs and change it as required. In either case, when done, it would be MY perfect bike! "Very close" to meet your needs." Cool, if you are willing to settle for something that most likely can't be upgraded in any significant way... then you go girl! I started with something that needed little to no upgrades and put a large mid-drive on it and have been polishing it since, no big deal.

As far as the class 2 rules, what I said earlier is my opinion, and my experience. That, and they're going to need a pretty darn nice camera to see the wattage on any motor I've ever owned..... as they aren't shown anywhere. I didn't hear anyone suggest that it could be read while moving but it can be when crumpled into a ball after (God Forbid) an accident. It's not the Police you need to consider, they just respond and record data, it's the insurance companies that would, could, can, and Will ruin your year.

Worst case here is they can ticket a 70 year old senior for having a throttle equipped bike on a Class 1 trail. Go for it.... Spoken like a true new-world citizen, "they"...

It doesn't cost terribly much more to do things "better" than you can do on-the-cheap, and you end up with something not only worth more but designed, manufactured, and assembled with longevity and durability in mind, let alone performance. Everyone has their own "perfect" bike in mind, mine was assembled to do many of those things really well... she does not go inverted worth a damn though. Probably not a concent I have to worry about since I was born only 3 years before you Old Timer.

Ride safe.

 

[FlatSix911]

Clearly, my point has been missed. You fail to justify how your "perfect bike" might suit MY needs. Why would I try to justify any thing to you or anyone else? Or is this supposed to be YOUR perfect bike only? Of course, it's "my" perfect bike and only mine. If this bike represents an attempt at being YOUR perfect bike only, surely others may have different needs for how THEY plan on using their bike, no? For instance, lugging around the weight of a battery the size of yours when they could charge one half that size once a week after riding it 4-5 times. You are absolutely correct... for anyone riding to the end of the driveway and back, although my brother inlaws driveway in Montana is 18 miles long. From your "perfect bike" suggestions you've mentioned so far, it would appear that in your mind, a bike like yours is the only solution to a set of universal needs. Nope, just covering the widest spectrum of those "needs".

That's pure horse puckey (IMHO of course). Of course.

It should be plain to see there are nearly as many "perfect" bikes as there are riders, and of those, production bikes can come very close to meeting their needs much of the time. And yes, I have built several custom bikes. Production bikes yes, production ebike No, that's why there are so many topics on trying to get higher speeds or more range, mostly how to go low-rent.

Currently riding a Rad City that has only the original frame and front wheel. The rest is aftermarket. So it's a hybrid! I may build the next bike, or I may buy a production bike that's very close to meeting my needs and change it as required. In either case, when done, it would be MY perfect bike! "Very close" to meet your needs." Cool, if you are willing to settle for something that most likely can't be upgraded in any significant way... then you go girl! I started with something that needed little to no upgrades and put a large mid-drive on it and have been polishing it since, no big deal.

As far as the class 2 rules, what I said earlier is my opinion, and my experience. That, and they're going to need a pretty darn nice camera to see the wattage on any motor I've ever owned..... as they aren't shown anywhere. I didn't hear anyone suggest that it could be read while moving but it can be when crumpled into a ball after (God Forbid) an accident. It's not the Police you need to consider, they just respond and record data, it's the insurance companies that would, could, can, and Will ruin your year.

Worst case here is they can ticket a 70 year old senior for having a throttle equipped bike on a Class 1 trail. Go for it.... Spoken like a true new-world citizen, "they"...

It doesn't cost terribly much more to do things "better" than you can do on-the-cheap, and you end up with something not only worth more but designed, manufactured, and assembled with longevity and durability in mind, let alone performance. Everyone has their own "perfect" bike in mind, mine was assembled to do many of those things really well... she does not go inverted worth a damn though. Probably not a concent I have to worry about since I was born only 3 years before you Old Timer.

Ride safe.

BBassett, thank you for your informative contributions to the EBR forums... you win the grumpy old man award for 2019!

 

[BBassett]

BBassett, thank you for your informative contributions to the EBR forums... you win the grumpy old man award for 2019!

View attachment 43454

Thanks! Odd though... hard for me to be grumpy when I'm stoned. But I do cop to opinionated.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The Original Poster wrote:

I want class 2/class 3 combined.

As far as I understand, 1 implies both throttle/pedelec

The answer is: There are clearly defined e-bike Classes. You cannot combine Classes. (Similarly, you might try combining a heavy duty lorry with a racing car, good luck). However, doing so, you are breaking the law, at least in California. Any other discussion is pointless.

The law is not made so the cop is to stop you. The law is not made so you are punished. The law is made to protect you and citizens around you. If the law in your jurisdiction does not forbid something you may do it but do not talk Classes.

 

[FlatSix911]

Thanks! Odd though... hard for me to be grumpy when I'm stoned. But I do cop to opinionated.

Best quote of the year!

 

[Vitaliy]

Guys,

thanks a lot for all your comments! After reading, riding, thinking... I've chosen Evelo Aurora hub-motor bike!

What contributed to y decision:
1. Class 2 - both pedal assist and throttle, that I am going to use sometimes
2. Seattle-based service
3. Price is more than acceptable
4. off-road mode with 25MPH PAS

Thank you all!
If anybody wants to buy evelo, you can get a 100$ off with my code:
REF-LX0XDKREWD043J

(I will get a 100$ reward too).

BTW, they have discounts until the end of January and 100$ goes off the discounted price!

 

[FlatSix911]

Guys, thanks a lot for all your comments! After reading, riding, thinking... I've chosen Evelo Aurora hub-motor bike!
What contributed to y decision:
1. Class 2 - both pedal assist and throttle, that I am going to use sometimes
2. Seattle-based service
3. Price is more than acceptable
4. off-road mode with 25MPH PAS
Thank you all! If anybody wants to buy evelo, you can get a 100$ off with my code: REF-LX0XDKREWD043J
(I will get a 100$ reward too). BTW, they have discounts until the end of January and 100$ goes off the discounted price!

Nice bike... looks very comfortable and sturdy! Here is the full review posted on EBR.

EVELO Aurora Hub-Drive Review | ElectricBikeReview.com

Price: $2499.00 | Model Year: 2019 | A value priced ebike with a focus on comfort with wider tires, hub-motor, gel saddle, approachable low stand over height, and front suspension

electricbikereview.com

Summary

• A value-priced ebike with a focus on comfort with wider tires, hub-motor, gel saddle, approachable low standover height, and front suspension
• Along with the suspension and tires, there is even more comfort here like locking grips, swept-back handlebars, and special stem design that has a lighter, more robust, and comfortable rise to it compared to most
• Powerful motor and battery, Shimano Tourney 7 speed system with a grip shifting system, mechanical disc brakes for easy adjustability and maintenance
• Rack does not use standard gauge tubing, front light can bounce since it is mounted on the suspension fork, and charging the battery can take a bit of time due to the larger size

 

[OldGuy]

I'd suggest that there are two criteria that are important: torque-sensing motor control, and having a skilled local dealer who can keep the bike working.