Full suspension with Belt drive - why ?

[Merle Nelson]

Post in thread 'How Far Away Is The Gates Belt For The Hydra ?' https://electricbikereview.com/foru...he-gates-belt-for-the-hydra.41039/post-393568

 

[Merle Nelson]

JMO and mostly just spitballing but These IGHs seem fine for commuter/pavement bikes but perhaps not so much for bikes meant for halfway serious trail riding. I won't take them seriously for the SUV type biking I do until they specifically come out with versions for 'off road' use. Right now the benefits do not seem to outweigh the problems seemingly inherent in their mechanical complexity ... for my use anyway.

Interesting thoughts Reed. When I watched all the youtube videos I could find on Kindernay I saw some things that weren't the most attractive to me. After it costing more, I still would have some noises that normal drive train doesn't make, some shifting idiosyncrasies, and can't lay the bike on its side without leaking.

Still wanting one for handeling torque better and...

 

[opimax]

Noises which are just noises don’t bother too much, if it is warning that something bad is about to happen then I am concerned. It would be great to have silence but my time with ebikes has been fairly unreliable, I just want to ride my bike , take it to a shop once or twice a year , and continue riding

i look at it this way if I am hearing noises on my bike I must be riding it! My Stromers were pretty quiet, DD hub and also unreliable….the bar is set low, let me ride

you should see the errors I have on my BH , the restarting , the reconnecting , and noises …still can get 60 plus miles at higher speed each trip…all these messages and such it still made the trip.
as I write I would expect it to work the same after a month sitting after pumping up the rear brake

 

[BruceBrown]

Interesting thoughts Reed. When I watched all the youtube videos I could find on Kindernay I saw some things that weren't the most attractive to me. After it costing more, I still would have some noises that normal drive train doesn't make, some shifting idiosyncrasies, and can't lay the bike on its side without leaking.

Still wanting one for handeling torque better and...

The amount of leaking from laying on it's side should be next to negligible. They just don't recommend you store it like that. And if you do need to lay it down, lay it on it's left side. From their website:

What about oil leaks?

All oil lubricated internal gear hubs will sweat a small amount of oil through the oil seals due to variations in temperature and resulting pressure differences. In order to minimize oil loss, it is a good idea to store the bike as upright as possible, as this will prevent oil from collecting over one of the seals. If the bike is transported laying on its side, return it to an upright position as soon as possible, and be aware that some oil might drip from the hub when it is laying on its side.

 

[Merle Nelson]

Great perspective and cliff notes on leaking. Thank you.

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

I'm thankful you commented and wouldn't think of doubting your veracity. Posting photos would be helpful for many.
That's the build I'm considering, and I've fretted: 'Is the Ultra's 147Ft-Lbs (@200nm) compatible with drive systems available - esp. Gates Carbon Belts?
The good: Actually, if the belt shreds before the Kindernay krunches (which is next up), it's not so bad we have a weak link.
The point to me: It appear just the torque sensor is sufficient to wreak havoc - without constant aware supervision and attention to settings.
For my machine, I want a belt and drive drive that will burn rubber - not scrap the belt, rear end/ gearbox, and hit +30mph. Sure sounds like 3 speeds, a fat belt and the right gearing.
Of course, stripping could be you were out of tension specs, but if it was the frame flexing, the belt would come off.
However, what you describe are not symptoms of Gates' renowned, finicky 'outside of tension specs' outcomes - teeth stripping says something else: Weak link is the belt itself - AND multiple teeth chewed, but not a broken belt says: It's not mistreatment - backbending, etc.
I note that Optimax spun his belt - but declines to address the question of 'the technical parameters (wattage, etc), or any circumstances' providing thoughtful info - beyond the scenery and state of fruit diet schedules, toting three batteries ... vis-a-vis pannier storage capacity at the time.
That's 36lbs of batteries - no telling how many Bananas. He's +200lbs.
I'm 140 soaking wet and run 12lbs of battery.
He could have been in 14 and juiced at 750w, or 2300w - at whatever level. Frustrating.
-
Really like to hear from you, the settings that work in the 'real', consumer 'world' with your '2300w CT, if you could elaborate on your anecdotal understanding of the correct settings - to avoid 'improper high torque' outcomes.
If I go it alone, I'll probably break everything, because I ride ...

... Fast and Furious,

Thanks,

Fn'F

Only one side of the teeth on the belt failed. It's possible due to insufficient tension. I used 50hz (40 lbs) tension, which is the maximum recommended tension for internal gear hubs. My guess is the belt came partially off the rear sprocket when I had sudden braking and acceleration at ECO 5 power level, and then with only half the belt teeth in contact, the teeth ripped out during the acceleration. I have a new belt installed now. I'm wondering if its ok to exceed 40 lbs for the Rohloff hub. It better to damage the belt than the hub.

Here are Gate's tensioning recommendations

MOUNTAIN & SINGLE-SPEED URBAN
Smooth/Steady pedaling style 45-60 Hz (35-45 lbs.). Punchy & rough pedaling style 60-75 Hz (45-53 lbs.)

INTERNALLY GEARED HUB/PINION GEARBOX
35-50 Hz (28-40 lbs)

 

[scrambler]

If you think it came out at the rear, then may be installing a Snubber would help

RDM Snubber - Carbondrive

<p>Zur Montage an herkömmlichen Schaltaugen. RDM = Rear Derailleur Mount<br /><br />Der Snubber verhindert das Überspringen des Riemens an der hinteren Riemenscheibe. Montage am Schaltauge.<br /> <br /> Hinweis: Der Snubber ist von der Firma...

shop.carbondrive.net

These basically come right against the top of the belt on the rear sprocket, preventing the belt from lifting up

https://shop.carbondrive.net/shop/pdfs/Info_Snubber_de_en_3.pdf

 

[Acme]

the Veer split belt I s not much stronger than a chain. A regular Gates belt is much stronger

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

If you think it came out at the rear, then may be installing a Snubber would help

RDM Snubber - Carbondrive

<p>Zur Montage an herkömmlichen Schaltaugen. RDM = Rear Derailleur Mount<br /><br />Der Snubber verhindert das Überspringen des Riemens an der hinteren Riemenscheibe. Montage am Schaltauge.<br /> <br /> Hinweis: Der Snubber ist von der Firma...

shop.carbondrive.net

These basically come right against the top of the belt on the rear sprocket, preventing the belt from lifting up

https://shop.carbondrive.net/shop/pdfs/Info_Snubber_de_en_3.pdf

Thanks, I will purchase and install if its not already equipped on the CrossTour. It should already be equipped since Gates says the following:

---

Note: The snubber is required for use by Rohloff, when using Gates Carbon Drive on any Rohloff hubs.

 

[fvbruin]

I love belt drives and low maintenance angle. The amount of engineering involved to make this happen is crazy (I mean in a good way, but still crazy).

I would be curious to see if people have used a belt long term with an FS bike, and what their experience has been? Does it ever come off ? What limitations have you noticed?

Hypothetically if there was a mainstream provider of such a bike(edit: beyond R&M).. what would be attractive about

My ideal setup for a bike would be to have FS and belt + IGH, in class 3 with throttle, and optimized for long range. The point of the belt is low maintenance and that just allows you more time to ride and enjoy riding without having to deal with bike issues that a lot people who normally dont ride regular bikes and are now riding simply because of the ebikes.

I think there is also a segment of people like myself that would like to have an all-in-one bike that can do long commuting or adventure rides 50-100 miles in comfort while also doing the occasional fireroad or light dirt trails for exploring without the need to have multiple bikes and willing to pay a little bit more for this but not crazy 10K+ price that models from companies like R&M Delite/Super Delite, Nicolai G1 EBOXX E14, Optibike R15C/R8C (no belt) great range.

I also think that there's a huge market opportunity for low maintenance and what i call light "adventure bikes" (commuter and trails) that are designed for smaller and lighter riders for people like my wife 5'1 and kids. I think the Optibike Essex is a great design concept with front suspension and belt and IGH design and the dropper seatpost and smaller wheels 26" but at $6400 its overpriced.