Front page LA Times today regarding Ebikes

[Roamers]

99% wouldn’t know I have a throttle.

The lack of pedaling is obvious.

 

[Roamers]

All of the evidence is that roundabouts are safer, move traffic more quickly, and cost less than controlled intersections.

The "neighborhood roundabouts" are a pain. The most usefull applications are those where more than 2 busy road intersection. Reference the GM and Carrier Circles in Syracuse, NY. Phote fir reference of size of circle.

 

[JedidiahStolzfus]

Here's an example of fixing a problem by making it worse.

This is the intersection of PA272 and Pennsy Road. For decades, this was just an intersection where the Pennsy road crossing traffic had to get to the median area and stop to continue to cross either the NB or SB lanes. There were a couple of nasty crashes down there and PennDOT decided to "fix" it.

Their solution is that traffic on Pennsy road can no longer directly cross into the median. Traffic from the right side, must now turn right, cross two lanes of traffic that are at highway speeds coming down the hill from the south, get into a left turn lane, then make a UTurn across traffic also traveling at highway speeds, then turn right onto Pennsy Road.

Traffic coming from the left on Pennsy, must now turn right, go 1 mile up the hill, then turn to go back down the hill with traffic at highway speeds coming at you from a blind hill. They were nice and built a 50' long acceleration lane for all those people driving sports cars to safely accelerate and merge. You then go down the hill and turn right up Pennsy Road.

Included in this design is the ability to loop around the median so traffic heading south and loop back and go north and vice versa on the north bound lanes. Now I've lived here since 1977, and I grew up not too far from where this is located. I've driven through here thousands of times, and not once, did I ever have to loop through to back north or south through this intersection.

Where this design absolutely fails is with buggy traffic, which is common at this intersection. There are Amish homes on both sides of the highway. Now if they need to cross this intersection, they need to do exactly what the cars do. Cross two lanes ofhighway speed traffic to loop around or go 2 miles out of their way up and down a steep hill.

Oh, did I mention the tunnels? Yeah, each direction on 272 has a tunnel, which the buggies would also need to pass through with no shoulder for them to be off the road. Buggies never went through those tunnels before this was built.

All the traffic circles I've seen put in PA are too small, it's difficult to determine if someone in the circle before you or not. On many of them where you have two main roads intersecting at what used to be right angles, it's not uncommon to have a very long line of traffic entering the circle where you have to stop because everyone has already entered before you did. Everyone is riding the vehicles ass in front of them so there's no space for you to merge in.

 

[tomjasz]

The problem with throttles that no one seems to mention: people who ride via throttle only often ride with an air of impunity - they may not be going fast, but they just barrel through the lane even when they ought to slow down or move a little to give others more space.

It's not a matter of the speed per se, since their bikes are often capped at 15 or 20 mph. It's just that they're not very responsive to other users. Sharing a lane can be like a dance with other users, with mutual accomodations. People throttling along on 100-200 lb ebikes/slow mopeds often simply don't do that. Seen it in Netherlands, Montreal. I think it's partly that the vehicles often weigh a lot more and lack agility, but also that adjusting your speed via pedaling or not is a lot more intuitive and instinctual.

Thank you, Judge Judy.

 

[Asher]

Much the same way the spandex flock currently rides though. It's not uncommon around here to see them, en masse blowing through stop signs while the rest of the traffic is trying to get through a 4 way stop with everyone taking their turn. They regularly ride more than 2 abreast making it nearly impossible to pass while still giving them the required amount of space. They ride with no lights and don't signal their turns. Basically doing all the same things that ebikes are accused of doing.

Everyone riding bikes on the roadways should be obeying the rules of the road and actually sharing the road. Something that bikers have been screaming about long before ebikes came about. Which I always find funny since they're doing what they can to not share the road. Not saying all, but I've seen enough to see that many don't care about the rules. While its a shame when one gets hit, I have to wonder how much they contributed to it happening.

Even if what you say about road riders we're true, from a holistic perspective they are much less relevant. They are relatively few in number, they ride at select times and in select areas, and it takes some know how to get to where they are. They are always going to be a small share of road users in the aggregate, tho certainly can cause localized issues. Ebikes don't have such inherent limitations on their popularity, which is the whole point. Quantity matters. Insofar as roadies pose issues, it's a stable matter, while ebikes are growing.

---

Some rules of the road are a good idea. Some are very dumb when applied to bikes, especially when there is no cross-traffic and visibility is good. Worshiping at the altar of literally dumb, senseless rules doesn't help anyone. Thus we see more places letting cyclists yield at stop signs.

As for throttle, I use mine the same way as you, getting up to speed or when pedaling is tricky (eg in a turn). The problem IME is primarily with people who are relentless, 'full throttle', no pedal, all the time.

 

[m@Robertson]

It's a matter of perception. When you are around pedestrians who see you not pedaling, on bikes that look like skinny motorcycles, you will get complaints to authorities. It's utter nonsense to discount this. Throttled bikes should not mix with pedestrians.

This is personal prejudice talking. Or rather... the equivalent of "you kids get off my lawn!". No basis in fact. You can back none of this up with evidence.

It never ceases to amaze me that the most virulent anti-ebikers are ebikers themselves. All that you need to be condemned is to do it differently than the preacher yelling from the soapbox.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Much the same way the spandex flock currently rides though. It's not uncommon around here to see them, en masse blowing through stop signs while the rest of the traffic is trying to get through a 4 way stop with everyone taking their turn. They regularly ride more than 2 abreast making it nearly impossible to pass while still giving them the required amount of space. They ride with no lights and don't signal their turns. Basically doing all the same things that ebikes are accused of doing.

Everyone riding bikes on the roadways should be obeying the rules of the road and actually sharing the road. Something that bikers have been screaming about long before ebikes came about. Which I always find funny since they're doing what they can to not share the road. Not saying all, but I've seen enough to see that many don't care about the rules. While its a shame when one gets hit, I have to wonder how much they contributed to it happening.

Yes, there is a double standard where fast cyclists aren't judged the same way that fast e-bikers might be. That double standard is obviously unfair and unreasonable.

All of that is irrelevant in terms of ensuring legal access to bike infra for e-bikes. The political reality is that e-bikes are new and perceptions aren't matching up with reality that won't matter when agencies decide about access for e-bikes.

What will matter is (1) if e-bikers are perceived as good citizens and good members of the community rather than hooligans, and (2) if e-bikers are squeaky wheels and show up at public meetings and make constructive contributions to those meetings.

 

[AHicks]

The lack of pedaling is obvious.

That's an ASSumption on the part of the ignorant, or those scratching to make a case against throttles.

 

[JedidiahStolzfus]

Some rules of the road are a good idea. Some are very dumb when applied to bikes, especially when there is no cross-traffic and visibility is good. Worshiping at the altar of literally dumb, senseless rules doesn't help anyone. Thus we see more places letting cyclists yield at stop signs.

If the bikes were blowing through stop signs where visibility was good and there wasn't any cross traffic, then I wouldn't know they were doing it, would I? Everything I posted above is something I've witnessed,many times. Around here, Ebikes aren't that plentiful so anyone complaining about them is doing it because they're new and not well understood. But the spandex flocks are plentiful. As I said before, I almost got run down by a group on my own bike as I was approaching a stop sign to make a right turn and the entire group cut the corner so close, I had to stop short. They apparently couldn't be bothered to slow down enough to stay in their lane to make the turn, because that lap time rules their day. Safety certainly doesn't.

I ride with courtesy and concern for others. If I see a big rig behind me trying to figure out how to get around, I pull into a driveway and stop and let him pass that ensures that I'm safe and he can continue on his way without needing to go into opposing lanes. I stay as close to the shoulder as I safely can, because riding the shoulder isn't always safe on the roads I ride.

All road users need to use the roads in a safe and courteous manner. That includes joggers, pedestrians, bikes of all kinds, cars and trucks.

 

[AleksR]

When you see one of these throttling down pedestrian path, and you are walking with you 5 years old daughter, what do you think?

 

[tomjasz]

When you see one of these throttling down pedestrian path, and you are walking with you 5 years old daughter, what do you think?

Minibike, not an e-bike, to me, and it still doesn't prove an adult can't wisely use a throttle. FWIW I think these are the worst thing to happen to e-bikes, but then I'd rather see them than coal rollers.

Live and let live but that's our culture. Too many people grabbing the moral high ground. BTW Sam Franks's Disco ain't the center of the universe. So far here in the midwest, they outnumber typical overpriced proprietary snob bikes and there are no issues. Just a few snobs. Snobs that somehow imagine they're the cool kids. It reminds me of high school. Were you picked on? And now you can pick? I don't like them. So I don't ride one.

 

[m@Robertson]

When you see one of these throttling down pedestrian path, and you are walking with you 5 years old daughter, what do you think?

I think someone is riding an ebike. This is a great example of the inherent prejudice being exhibited here.

A bike like this is great for urban mobility. It lets someone get around without driving. Its one less car on the road and its almost certainly someone who would not otherwise be on two wheels.

Embrace it. bikes like this represent a preferable future in urban mobility. Just because you (and I for that matter) don't have a use for this type of bike doesn't mean they don't serve a positive purpose. And just because you don't like it, doesn't mean its not likable to someone else so long as they live within the legal rules (which in this case means 20 mph or less on a multi use path, in California at least).

Learn to share and to live and let live. Maybe that means you don't let your kid wander around on a path that allows ebikes or bicycles. I see plenty of sloppy, distracted parents on MUPs, but also attentive ones who recognize they need to keep their kids from wandering into traffic that has a right to be there.

 

[m@Robertson]

I skipped read through on some post but I got the general idea of what we need to change here in my locality.
City and County has an ambitious plan to build more multimodal pathways under federal grants to compliment our electrified Railway.
My idea is to have a yearly registration renewal requirement for ebikes and e mobility vehicles such as e bikes, e scooters, e Unicycle, e mopeds etc.
$50 yearly fee. No insurance and license requirements 25 mph limit.
And additional requirements are yearly safety check on the e bike and must pass City and County standards and meets Federal Standards.
I have a permanent registration.
Safety check decal would look like this, see picture of the white sticker on the bumper, smaller for ebikes.

And... Honolulu is a shining example of how the government is often the problem not the solution. I know in the early days of that registration program, the City was demanding the return of issued ebike licenses when they backtracked and saw a 750w motor, because they (and pretty much only they) recognized the law everywhere says "less than 750w" and so they decided anything over 749w was illegal.

I assume they fixed that, since nothing anywhere is rated to 749w? Or is it still going on?

 

[mschwett]

…And just because you don't like it, doesn't mean its not likable to someone else so long as they live within the legal rules (which in this case means 20 mph or less on a multi use path, in California at least).

Learn to share and to live and let live. Maybe that means you don't let your kid wander around on a path that allows ebikes or bicycles. I see plenty of sloppy, distracted parents on MUPs, but also attentive ones who recognize they need to keep their kids from wandering into traffic that has a right to be there.

but they aren’t a legal user and don’t have a right to be there. more than 750 watts, doesn’t fit into any of the eBike de of the state of California, not a moped either, presumably not registered or insured. even if it was <750, probably not allowed on a shared path unless it’s one of the somewhat rare ones that allows class 3 bikes.

on the other hand, the kid wandering on the path absolutely DOES have a right to be there, as annoying as it may be to you.

i’m all for changing stupid laws but blatantly disregarding them isn’t a good look.

 

[Rexlion]

Ugh, HI and CA had better not get together and have children! Yeesh.

 

[Nomad]

Might be. But there will certainly be far fewer accidents with fatalities or serious injuries. This is largely because you can't have head-on collisions or high-speed collisions at right angles. Nearly all collisions will be at lower speeds and shallow angles, and since speed kills in accidents this is a Big Deal.

All of the evidence is that roundabouts are safer, move traffic more quickly, and cost less than controlled intersections. Also, depending on design you can fit them into existing right-of-ways most of the time and you can tune the speed (mainly by controlling the turning radius) down to about 20mph.

A good feature of roundabouts is that you set the crosswalks back from the intersection but close enough that cars are slowing down. Cyclists can either use the crosswalks or can take the lane and ride through the roundabout.

I agree multi-lane roundabouts (so-called turbo roundabouts) are awful, confusing, and kind of silly.

Also, please show your work on your claim that more roundabouts mean more accidents. When I look online I quickly found this page which I quote from below:

Studies show that drug was perfectly safe tweeny years ago now we pulled off the shelf. I know that's bad but I just had to say it please forgive me

 

[tomjasz]

Studies show that drug was perfectly safe tweeny years ago now we pulled off the shelf. I know that's bad but I just had to say it please forgive me

Roundabouts are far older. Just not familiar to single-language Americans.
The first roundabout was built in Letchworth Garden City, in Britain in 1907. Safe for much longer than penicillin.

 

[Nomad]

Roundabouts are far older. Just not familiar to single-language Americans.
The first roundabout was built in Letchworth Garden City, in Britain in 1907. Safe for much longer than penicillin.

Therein lies part of the problem we're talking about Americans on U.S. roads different animal. Think about it the learning curve is costly. Also they just won't fit in some places. They do make sense in some places if built and used correctly but other places there's a better answer. Some food for thought what if we used the tech we already have available to put in are traffic light systems. Of course, there is the whole thing about the various user acting appropriately.

 

[m@Robertson]

but they aren’t a legal user and don’t have a right to be there. more than 750 watts...

No. You don't know that. The claim I was responding to was merely about the existence of a throttle being the root of all evil, which I responded was nonsense. Then it was expanded to a picture of a scrambler-style bike being a cause for fear/trepidation just at the sight of it. You can go back and look at what was said and what I was responding to.

If you want to expand the discussion to include almost every ebike on sale in the USA, then thats another thread within this discussion. But not this one.

 

[mschwett]

No. You don't know that. The claim I was responding to was merely about the existence of a throttle being the root of all evil, which I responded was nonsense. Then it was expanded to a picture of a scrambler-style bike being a cause for fear/trepidation just at the sight of it. You can go back and look at what was said and what I was responding to.

If you want to expand the discussion to include almost every ebike on sale in the USA, then thats another thread within this discussion. But not this one.

hmmmm. the post you replied to was “what do you think when you see one of these on a path…” to which you said “an e-bike.”

the image accompanying the post was a 1000w bike. that’s what i was basing my comment on. not a legal user of a MUP in california that i know of. could it be used responsibly - yes. would it be legal? no.