Front page LA Times today regarding Ebikes

hmmmm. the post you replied to was “what do you think when you see one of these on a path…” to which you said “an e-bike.”

the image accompanying the post was a 1000w bike. that’s what i was basing my comment on. not a legal user of a MUP in california that i know of. could it be used responsibly - yes. would it be legal? no.
No. Frankly I didn't either as this kind of hairsplitting is silly. Its a simple ebike.

EDIT: I know what the advertising says for this bike. Its typical marketing bullshit. They are using peak values which is not a big surprise that low-end sellers stretch the truth (also the 70 mile range). As we all know a 48v battery and a generic controller can easily hit 1000w, just like most 250w EU-spec motors peak at 500-750.

So again: someone shows me a pic of an ebike that is nothing special, and claims that image alone invokes fear. Nonsense. That comes on the heels of stating the following in no uncertain terms:
The problem is throttling. Get rid of it, there will be no problems.
That is not an excerpt. That was the whole post. Nonsense.
 
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No. Frankly I didn't either as this kind of hairsplitting is silly. Its a simple ebike.

EDIT: I know what the advertising says for this bike. Its typical marketing bullshit. They are using peak values which is not a big surprise that low-end sellers stretch the truth (also the 70 mile range). As we all know a 48v battery and a generic controller can easily hit 1000w, just like most 250w EU-spec motors peak at 500-750.

So again: someone shows me a pic of an ebike that is nothing special, and claims that image alone invokes fear. Nonsense. That comes on the heels of stating the following in no uncertain terms:

That is not an excerpt. That was the whole post. Nonsense.

i didn’t look closely at all, just the headline of the advertising. perhaps it is a legal class 3 bike. 1000w, 750w, agreed that it makes very little difference.

very few MUPs around here allow class 3 bikes. do the ones in other parts of california?
 
Just to be clear there are three classes. Only the even numbered one has a throttle. 1) Under 750W, no throttle, max speed 20. 2) Under 750W, THROTTLE, max speed 20. Class 3) Under 750W, no throttle, max speed up to 28 mph.
 
I’m so tired of this class bullshirt. Back here they say we have California ten years later. Cool. Cuz do far there’s no nanny state busting a dozen different visions of what constitutes an eBike

IN MY OPINION,
Any adventure in mobility and development of least toxic methodologies is progressive and a future.

I dislike those 20” fatties, so I don’t own one. I think highbrow LBS boleo and their buyers are laughable, so I don’t buy one. But do I think I’m more enlightened? f*ck no! I’m a reborn live and let live and f*ck Saudi oil. I could even hug @Stefan Mikes . He does the right thing. It’s the high ground that separates us.
 
This puts the regulation of bikes into greater perspective. In just less than four weeks into 2023 there have been 40 mass shootings in the US. That does not include less than three murdered at a time, such as the six year-old who shot his teacher.
 
very few MUPs around here allow class 3 bikes. do the ones in other parts of california?
CA law expressly excludes Class 3's from MUP's statewide. But considering the poster I was replying to was thinking along the lines he was, he didn't put any such nuance into the posting of that picture.

BTW that class 3 exclusion does not in any way inhibit me from using any MUP. Its a stupid law and I refuse to follow it. What I do instead is follow - and exceed - its spirit in the interests of not hurting people (which includes myself). The difference between a Class 1 and a Class 3 is 8 mph of potential speed. Nothing else. CA state law expressly allows me to ride 20 mph on an MUP. On any MUP - even one with no people - I generally won't hit 20 mph (MUPs are not graded like streets are, and they are narrow etc. etc. Not the place for that level of speed even when unoccupied).

WITH people I don't go much over 10 mph on general principles, and a hell of a lot less than that when some inattentive kid is flitting around while their clueless parents are paying attention to other things. Thats the worst case though. Usually I stop pedaling and let my clicky freewheel announce my approach, while covering my brakes, or gently using them. Typically about that time I make eye contact with the parent who is already reaching for and admonishing their kid for not looking where they are going. What I generally get is an appreciative smile or nod to quietly thank me for paying attention myself.

I'm building a bike right now meant for the Monterey area and I'm gearing it specifically for high powered hill climbs - and lower speeds so I can pedal at a good cadence and still poke along at path-safe speeds.

326999357_473021751520350_4694791051041404723_n.jpg


Calc'ing out speed at cadence for all the gears: This bike has 2wd and a throttle for each wheel. For the record, I can't use the smallest 12T cog due to bad chain alignment, so if I was actually capable of pedaling at 90 rpms, I'd only be just at 20 mph. Figure top speed on that gear will be 23-25 under throttle. The front motor tops out at about 22 anyway.

ScrnShot020.jpg


This is about traction and practicality under load ... not top speed. This is what auto replacement looks like. Its a good thing for society. But thats more thinking than some are capable of on this subject. @mschwett not directing that last comment at you.
 
A very thoughtful guy (owner?) at my LBS in Solana Beach, CA thinks that throttles will eventually be banned in California, as they already are in the EU. This LBS sells a wide range of mid-drive and rear hub drive bikes, and many if not most of the latter have throttles -- including quite a few in the 28 mph, 750W category. (These last don't fit into any California class as currently defined, but that's another post.)

Neither of us is anti-throttle. That's just where he thinks things are headed. I use mine both sparingly and responsibly and would hate to part with it (mainly for traffic safety and knee preservation reasons). But I'm beginning to think he's right.

Not saying that throttles are inherently bad, or that they should be banned. Simply that such a ban (a) would be relatively easy to enforce, and (b) would in one fell swoop take many irresponsible riders off our roadways, bikeways, MUPs, dedicated walkways, and countless other places where no bike should be ridden.

Like it or not, irresponsibly ridden ebikes are a real and growing threat to public safety in coastal San Diego County -- if only because (1) their numbers are exploding, and (2) they can easily go much faster than the typical rider could/would ever pedal, with or without a throttle. In fact, many if not most of the offending ebikes I see are ridden without pedaling. And like it or not, that's what the public sees, too.

I get the distinct feeling that most of these irresponsible riders wouldn't bike at all if they had to pedal. For officials charged with public safety, that has to be a tempting target. If the typical throttle weren't full-power only, might be a different story, but I kinda doubt it.

Sigh, this is why we can't have nice things.
 
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I'm building a bike right now
That is a beautiful bike! It turned out to be another perfect day. Again it will be so hard for me to stay in and finish my project. I goofed off much of yesterday because it is just too tempting to get out and ride and sit in a reclined chair with the sun on my toes in the sand. This one is also black & white themed. Nice wheels! What are the hubs?
 
A very thoughtful guy (owner?) at my LBS in Solana Beach, CA thinks that throttles will eventually be banned in California, as they already are in the EU. This LBS sells a wide range of mid-drive and rear hub drive bikes, and many if not most of the latter have throttles -- including quite a few in the 28 mph, 750W category. (These last don't fit into any California class as currently defined, but that's another post.)

Neither of us is anti-throttle. That's just where he thinks things are headed. I use mine both sparingly and responsibly and would hate to part with it (mainly for traffic safety and knee preservation reasons). But I'm beginning to think he's right.

Not saying that throttles are inherently bad, or that they should be banned. Simply that such a ban (a) would be relatively easy to enforce, and (b) would in one fell swoop take many irresponsible riders off our roadways, bikeways, MUPs, dedicated walkways, and countless other places where no bike should be ridden.

Like it or not, irresponsibly ridden ebikes are a real and growing threat to public safety in coastal San Diego County -- if only because (1) their numbers are exploding, and (2) they can easily go much faster than the typical rider could/would ever pedal, with or without a throttle. In fact, many if not most of the offending ebikes I see are ridden without pedaling. And like it or not, that's what the public sees, too.

I get the distinct feeling that most of these irresponsible riders wouldn't bike at all if they had to pedal. For officials charged with public safety, that has to be a tempting target. If the typical throttle weren't full-power only, might be a different story, but I kinda doubt it.

Sigh, this is why we can't have nice things.
Great insights - as you said, the problem is in the type of rider that a throttle attracts, and that it's absence would repel.

Even as someone who pedals constantly, I use the throttle frequently. That said, some of the utility of the throttle can be had by turning it into a 'boost' or 'turbo' button a la Vanmoof - a temporary boost to pedal assist, principally for when you're pedaling from a stop and want to get up to cruising speed (15-20 mph) quickly. When I'm weaving between low speed traffic, I need low acceleration, but at a stoplight turning green, I want high acceleration to get distance from and visibility to the cars.

I also wonder if making throttle 'semi-auto' only, and ban 'full auto', at least for it not to be a motorcycle/moped, to retain the real world value without the drawbacks. So, the throttle would operate for a maximum of 3-5 seconds consecutively, and a 3-5 second cooling off period.
 
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Great insights - as you said, the problem is in the type of rider that a throttle attracts, and that it's absence would repel.

Even as someone who pedals constantly, I use the throttle frequently. That said, some of the utility of the throttle can mostly be had by turning it into a 'boost' or 'turbo' button a la Vanmoof - a temporary boost to pedal assist, principally for when you're pedaling from a stop and want to get up to cruising speed (15-20 mph) quickly. When I'm weaving between low speed traffic, I need low acceleration, but at a stoplight turning green, I want high acceleration to get distance from and visibility to the cars.

I also wonder if making throttle 'semi-auto' only, and ban 'full auto', at least for it not to be a motorcycle/moped, to retain the real world value without the drawbacks. So, the throttle would operate for a maximum of 3-5 seconds consecutively, and a 3-5 second cooling off period.
Love that semi-auto throttle idea! In my case, 95% of the utility would be preserved.

I should clarify that a throttle ban -- which I am not advocating -- would do the most for public safety in a place like mine: a very popular tourist destination with lots of school kids from families who can afford to buy them cool ebikes. Might have little effect in other settings.
 
Love that semi-auto throttle idea! In my case, 95% of the utility would be preserved.

I should clarify that a throttle ban -- which I am not advocating -- would do the most for public safety in a place like mine: a very popular tourist destination with lots of school kids from families who can afford to buy them cool ebikes. Might have little effect in other settings.
The classic counter response would be to simply station enforcement officers to ticket riders, initially with a heavy presence, and then make enforcement more sporadic as people learn to follow the rules. Has that already been tried and found wanting?
 
I know that the City of Carlsbad stepped up enforcement when their late-2022 bike restrictions went into effect. Don't know how hard or long they tried given other enforcement needs. Nor if they're actually making the public safer.

But I do know that our ebike problem hasn't gone away. Sadly, hard to believe that tourists or school kids would respond to ad campaigns or signage or PSAs for responsible riding. And this at a time when many folks think that rules just don't apply to them.
 
Just to be clear there are three classes. Only the even numbered one has a throttle. 1) Under 750W, no throttle, max speed 20. 2) Under 750W, THROTTLE, max speed 20. Class 3) Under 750W, no throttle, max speed up to 28 mph.
Then what is my ebike? 750W, THROTTLE, max speed 28. Would that be an "assault-style ebike"? 😆

Made a run to the grocery store today. So glad I have a throttle, as the chain slipped off the front sprocket just as I entered a busy intersection @ about 10 mph, and I was able to propel quickly through.

IMG_1321.JPG
 
CA law expressly excludes Class 3's from MUP's statewide. But considering the poster I was replying to was thinking along the lines he was, he didn't put any such nuance into the posting of that picture.

BTW that class 3 exclusion does not in any way inhibit me from using any MUP. Its a stupid law and I refuse to follow it. What I do instead is follow - and exceed - its spirit in the interests of not hurting people (which includes myself). The difference between a Class 1 and a Class 3 is 8 mph of potential speed. Nothing else. CA state law expressly allows me to ride 20 mph on an MUP. On any MUP - even one with no people - I generally won't hit 20 mph (MUPs are not graded like streets are, and they are narrow etc. etc. Not the place for that level of speed even when unoccupied).

WITH people I don't go much over 10 mph on general principles, and a hell of a lot less than that when some inattentive kid is flitting around while their clueless parents are paying attention to other things. Thats the worst case though. Usually I stop pedaling and let my clicky freewheel announce my approach, while covering my brakes, or gently using them. Typically about that time I make eye contact with the parent who is already reaching for and admonishing their kid for not looking where they are going. What I generally get is an appreciative smile or nod to quietly thank me for paying attention myself.

...

This is about traction and practicality under load ... not top speed. This is what auto replacement looks like. Its a good thing for society. But thats more thinking than some are capable of on this subject. @mschwett not directing that last comment at you.

i agree with you, the law should allow all eBikes as long as the motor is inactive at speeds above the posted limit, which are usually 10 or 15 around here, and could/should be 20 or 28 on certain stretches that are not heavily trafficked, have few intersections etc.

i have a class 3 road bike, but it's only 300w, so in practical terms it's not providing a huge boost at those higher speeds. but out of deference for the law (and the fact that most MUPs are quite flat - motor assist really not required for a road bike) i always just turn the motor off on any MUP, period. if something terrible happened, i would have the log files to show that there was no electrical assist and hopefully that would be enough, whatever the wording of the law is.

my standard sustained human-pedal-power is around 200w on that bike, which yields 19mph or so. adding the 240w at the wheel from the motor on full blast, it's more like 25mph. definitely illegal, not always but sometimes unsafe, and always unnecessary for my purposes. when i want to go fast, i ride in the bike lanes on-street.
 
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Even as someone who pedals constantly, I use the throttle frequently. That said, some of the utility of the throttle can be had by turning it into a 'boost' or 'turbo' button a la Vanmoof - a temporary boost to pedal assist, principally for when you're pedaling from a stop and want to get up to cruising speed (15-20 mph) quickly. When I'm weaving between low speed traffic, I need low acceleration, but at a stoplight turning green, I want high acceleration to get distance from and visibility to the cars.

the boost button on a VM works exceedingly well. full power (which is only 500w) right away when you need it, as long as you're pedaling. doesn't matter how weakly you're pedaling. it also completely defuses the issue of drivers, pedestrians, and haters calling it anything other than a bicycle, because, well, the rider is pedaling.
 
The thing about a throttle is at what point is it no longer an electric bicycle? I'm not saying I'm against throttles I am saying even a low assist throttle needs to be in a different class than one without. At this point that is kinda how it is.
 
How many ebikes have run over people and killed them? I think cars win that debate. I would worry about the thousands of homeless people causing problems first.
I agree, what about the people on skateboards, rollerblades, non electric bikes, etc they all go over 10 mph and if someone weighs 150 lbs and runs over you, it hurts.
 
The thing about a throttle is at what point is it no longer an electric bicycle? I'm not saying I'm against throttles I am saying even a low assist throttle needs to be in a different class than one without. At this point that is kinda how it is.
Maybe you want to regulate the hand? What do you people drink in California, your state is broke and regulated to death.
 
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