Frey
- Thread starter scout592
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Some educational sites, mostly about Bicycle Frames: The Zen of rear suspension design
While I await the arrival of my Frey CC, with time on my hands, I thought I’d delve further into why I bought it in the first place. A big factor was its low step through full suspension design which didn’t look like a jungle gym of randomly recruited tubular bits. The low step over part is important because my old hip joints are so degraded I can no longer manage to get my right leg quite high enough to clear the seat anymore. So to educate myself, I read this::
https://www.bikeradar.com/features/the-ultimate-guide-to-mountain-bike-rear-suspension-systems/
To the extent that I understood the article, unlike frame structural design for mechanical strength safety margin loading, flex/torsional resistance which can be modeled in AutoCad or ProE/FEA, or whatever tool is now in vogue, FS frame design requires an artful balance of human factors use case intent as well as the mechanical design aspect. I suspect much of this must be done by trial and error, although maybe the Giants and the Specializeds of the world have at least starting point models. The article didn’t discuss how commercial designs are finalized for their intended markets , so if anybody knows, please chime in. Fashion/Group Think marketing trends may also play a role. For a pedal only acoustic bike maintaining a feel for the ground beneath with the ability to shock absorb rocks and ruts and jumps going down hill at ridiculous speeds without permanent injury to the rider or bike while preserving pedal efficiency on the flats, seems to be the primary practical goal.
Now looking specifically at the CC’s design:
and comparing it to the R&M Delite’s design,
It appears that the R&M is a single pivot, while the CC is a single pivot linkage coupled design used to improve stiffness at the end of travel. I leave it as an exercise to determine which class of multilink suspension the AM1000 and EX models fall into.
Interestingly EBR just Youtube’d a review of the E14 Rohloff edition of the R&M. Most of the comments had to do with its 9.7k$ price being a bridge too far. Being a cheapskate, the considerably less I paid for the CC was close to my edge of reasonableness; hence all this self examination.
Another educational site, a video on ebike motors modeling by the Canadian GRIN Satiator guy is at:
He seems mostly a hub motor guy, but his words about motor thermal envelope limitations and how motors fail if pushed too hard too long is interesting. Interesting use of ferrofluids for motor cooling --- the tweeters in one of my speaker pairs by Energy (also made in Canada) also use this trick.
Stay Well
While I await the arrival of my Frey CC, with time on my hands, I thought I’d delve further into why I bought it in the first place. A big factor was its low step through full suspension design which didn’t look like a jungle gym of randomly recruited tubular bits. The low step over part is important because my old hip joints are so degraded I can no longer manage to get my right leg quite high enough to clear the seat anymore. So to educate myself, I read this::
https://www.bikeradar.com/features/the-ultimate-guide-to-mountain-bike-rear-suspension-systems/
To the extent that I understood the article, unlike frame structural design for mechanical strength safety margin loading, flex/torsional resistance which can be modeled in AutoCad or ProE/FEA, or whatever tool is now in vogue, FS frame design requires an artful balance of human factors use case intent as well as the mechanical design aspect. I suspect much of this must be done by trial and error, although maybe the Giants and the Specializeds of the world have at least starting point models. The article didn’t discuss how commercial designs are finalized for their intended markets , so if anybody knows, please chime in. Fashion/Group Think marketing trends may also play a role. For a pedal only acoustic bike maintaining a feel for the ground beneath with the ability to shock absorb rocks and ruts and jumps going down hill at ridiculous speeds without permanent injury to the rider or bike while preserving pedal efficiency on the flats, seems to be the primary practical goal.
Now looking specifically at the CC’s design:
and comparing it to the R&M Delite’s design,
It appears that the R&M is a single pivot, while the CC is a single pivot linkage coupled design used to improve stiffness at the end of travel. I leave it as an exercise to determine which class of multilink suspension the AM1000 and EX models fall into.
Interestingly EBR just Youtube’d a review of the E14 Rohloff edition of the R&M. Most of the comments had to do with its 9.7k$ price being a bridge too far. Being a cheapskate, the considerably less I paid for the CC was close to my edge of reasonableness; hence all this self examination.
Another educational site, a video on ebike motors modeling by the Canadian GRIN Satiator guy is at:
He seems mostly a hub motor guy, but his words about motor thermal envelope limitations and how motors fail if pushed too hard too long is interesting. Interesting use of ferrofluids for motor cooling --- the tweeters in one of my speaker pairs by Energy (also made in Canada) also use this trick.
Stay Well
Dave Thefonziscool
Member
Anybody know which port the US group order is going to?
I think it's just called the HT1000 as AM1000 refers to the full suspension version. Yes, I ordered a nearly identical bike to your picture above - haven't received it yet though.
byunbee
Well-Known Member
There is no AM1000HT. AM1000 is the Full Suspension and HT1000 is the Hardtail from your photo.
TomD
Well-Known Member
Depends on the site. Their swiss rep chooses to prefix all the ultra models by AM1000:
www.frey-bike-schweiz.ch
HT1000 HT1000 - Frey Bike International
HT1000 (HT1000) (E-Bikes - Performance)
byunbee
Well-Known Member
Well that's misleading...false representation of a product to confuse people.Depends on the site. Their swiss rep chooses to prefix all the ultra models by AM1000:
HT1000 HT1000 - Frey Bike International
HT1000 (HT1000) (E-Bikes - Performance)
TomD
Well-Known Member
I suspect "AM1000" may be more recognizable in their parts, perhaps being synonymous with Frey or more recognizable which is why their local dealer might have chosen that prefix for the HT, CC, and EX variants. Doubt anyone is confused or actually believes they are ordering an "all mountain" bike when they opt for the hard tail or cross country. If they are they probably are better off not choosing the AM version. 
Hey tomdav, I am on the fence about which bike to get and waiting for a Frey and paying $800 to ship is hard to swallow. Any advice?I suspect "AM1000" may be more recognizable in their parts, perhaps being synonymous with Frey or more recognizable which is why their local dealer might have chosen that prefix for the HT, CC, and EX variants. Doubt anyone is confused or actually believes they are ordering an "all mountain" bike when they opt for the hard tail or cross country. If they are they probably are better off not choosing the AM version.
TomD
Well-Known Member
My CC is still in transit and won't be here for another two weeks. I opted for it as I wanted a full suspension with a powerful motor and decent range for light off road, gravel and city use. The lower step will also work for my wife who hasn't ridden a bike since in years but recently expressed interest joining me on rides after seeing how much fun I've been having on a cheap Rebel Lite HT I picked up from Bicycle Blue Book.
Not knowing what kind of bike you're looking for it's hard to suggest any particular model. I'm holding off on recommending the CC until I have had some time to ride it for a while and test battery range, etc.
You seem to be looking more at full suspension all mountain bikes. For a lighter / nimble trail bike I'm not sure any of the Frey offerings would be my choice. I'd opt for a Luna X1 instead of the Frey M600 for roughly the same money shipped. Ravi's full suspension "SUB" looks intriguing but it's going to be a while.
As far as the more expensive shipping, I'd probably go that route if you decide on a model. It's not that much more than sea shipping which is around $500. The free shipping option has ended but no way I'd go that route, 6-7 months is crazy long time to wait for a bike.
Not knowing what kind of bike you're looking for it's hard to suggest any particular model. I'm holding off on recommending the CC until I have had some time to ride it for a while and test battery range, etc.
You seem to be looking more at full suspension all mountain bikes. For a lighter / nimble trail bike I'm not sure any of the Frey offerings would be my choice. I'd opt for a Luna X1 instead of the Frey M600 for roughly the same money shipped. Ravi's full suspension "SUB" looks intriguing but it's going to be a while.
As far as the more expensive shipping, I'd probably go that route if you decide on a model. It's not that much more than sea shipping which is around $500. The free shipping option has ended but no way I'd go that route, 6-7 months is crazy long time to wait for a bike.
Thanks brother. Just trying to figure out what is best route for me. I really want a solid platform that I can build on that includes full suspension. I am looking long game. Not afraid to work on bikes myself. If I could find something that could be upgraded later but was a "too good to pass up" deal, I would consider it. I am not a hard core mountain biker but do appreciate the ability to go off road with no worries. I am also considering the Dost Kope but I really would like something more mountain bike capable.
TomD
Well-Known Member
Just say no unless you want a circa 2015 mid drive without torque sensing.
Got 3K to burn. Not necessarily committed to a turn key solution for an ebike. Would like mid-drive 1000w motor and a solid MTB platform to start. Could upgrade later. What is out there that would fit the bill?
byunbee
Well-Known Member
If you want 1000w mid drive for $3000, only option I can think of that has decent reputation is Frey AM1000 base model. But if you can spend a bit more, Luna X-1 is probably a better option.
Thanks byunbee. Why is it a better option? Not questioning your opinion just trying to get educated.
byunbee
Well-Known Member
Luna X1 is a carbon frame bike that is lighter with better design, geometry, and better components. They are also U.S. based in Southern California and have the bikes in stock ready to ship which you can get your hands on in a week. If you live in Southern California , you can go check out the bike in person before you buy. Frey’s high end model has similar level components but would bring the price up to $3000 before shipping. Frey is minimum 45 day wait with air freight option (~$790) and more like 3 months for a ship by sea ($500).
You should go watch some YouTube videos on Luna X1 and Frey AM1000 to get a better feel for how the bikes ride if you can’t do it in person.
You should go watch some YouTube videos on Luna X1 and Frey AM1000 to get a better feel for how the bikes ride if you can’t do it in person.
Thanks byunbee. I live in south central PA so not really looking to go to Cali. Thank you sincerely for you response. I have been researching for about a month and have been uncertain as to what would be best. I am willing to wait but would love to get started soon. Maybe worth sleeping in the dog house for a few nights to get something that will last over the long haul.
bob armani
Well-Known Member
Looks like the X1 is well put together machine and I have seen posters say good/positive opinions about Luna's C/S. I also asked them about the quality of their carbon frames and they indicated they do not like to cut corners on the build quality to ensure customer satisfaction. I also have not seen any owners complain about any issues with it thus far. We shall see. Good pick IMO.
Thanks for the input Bob. I made decisions on home buying faster than I am able to with the eBikes. The Frey is like this dangling carrot that you cannot reach for months.
