Electric Car thread

[Readytoride]

Recently read an newspaper article re: How renters deal with EVs. Given they have no “home” in which to charge, they are at the mercy of universal charge stations that renters bemoan as always in use.

We are still in the early stages of adopting electric cars over gas powered cars. The infrastructure is moving fast to support EVs on highways and interstates and stop-and-charge facilities in public places. What hasn't been addressed as much as it should be, is the ability for people who rent apartments, or live in condos, or live in high-rises, to have on site infrastructure for supporting electric cars. And that is only because the percentage of EVS at the moment is very small, and not at all at the point where it would be financially advantageous for apartments or condos to start retrofitting. They are actually going to have to be pushed, not only by their clients and owners, but by local and state government to have facilities available. It's going to take a whopping amount of money to have these private charging facilities put in place. But it will be done, because progress doesn't move backwards. And places that can advertise that they have charging facilities, or have outlets available at each parking space that will support a Level 1 or 2 EVSE, have a bigger market for choosing to rent from them.

Right now, most renters that have EVs that need to go to a public Level 2 or Level 3 are really no different from renters who have gas cars that have to go to gasoline stations to fill up. In the coming years this will change. It's just going to take a matter of time, and sometimes a matter of government, before rentals and condo owners get the same type of instant gratification that homeowners have in just plugging in at home.

Also, today's EVs are being designed with longer range batteries that will allow someone who has a shorter commute, or only uses their car to run around locally in town, to go for days between charging. So quite possibly these people will only need to hit up a charger once or twice a week.

Again, the change to the infrastructure is moving extremely fast. I am looking at it from the perspective of one who has owned an EV for 4 years when there really was a scarcity of public EV support systems outside of Tesla's amazing and well thought out, albeit proprietary, infrastructure, and can see how much has been changed , improved, and expanded to add the support system needed for electric vehicles.

 

[BigNerd]

This guy makes some good points when comparing EVs, hybrids, and ICE powered vehicles.

Bottom line: For now, hybrids are the best choice for reducing carbon emissions. You would need to drive an EV about 450,000 miles to gain benefit over hybrids in terms of total carbon footprint.

The Contradictions of Battery-Operated Vehicles

I think that many people feel like EVs is just about "saving the environment". I think there are other aspects to EVs that are beneficial... it will reduce reliance on fossil fuels, it reduces noise pollution, it reduces maintenance costs, it saves people time, etc etc etc. And as many electric producers are moving to renewable energy, that just improves everything all around.

Remote work also has helped usher in more EV adoption. You drive less, thus you need less range and have less range anxiety. We are even thinking of reducing the number of cars in our household because we just don't independently need transportation any more. Many things can be delivered (Amazon Prime is awesome) so the need to drive goes down. Now before you think we are looking at a Wall-E future... that's where ebikes can help us get outside.

Side note: I am seeing many more golf carts in my area... so there is another adjacent paradigm shift.

 

[BET]

My brother in NJ bought an 2023 Hyundai Ioniq 5, an electric suv. Benefits : quick, 300 mile range, charges to 80 per cent on fast charger in less than 30 minutes, lots of safety features, nice, big enough ( my brother is 6'5"), in NJ no sales taxes on ev's, no annual inspection, includes 2 years of charging at charging stations, power company (JCP&L) paid for installing a level 2 charger in his garage, good warranty on car. Dealer did add some markup because of scarcity of cars. $44-45k, but did qualify for NJ ev incentive of 2K or so. He is pleased. I am waiting for the 2024 Chevy Equinox at a more affordable $30k price and eligible for Federal and MD State

 

[procreator]

EVs are the future, and offer wonderful benefits. However, people often turn a blind eye to the entire ecosystem around building and powering them.

One of the key minerals in making the high flux magnets needed for the motors is neodymium. China sits on top of 90% of the world's supply. China has a horrible human rights record. Just search "China Uyghur" and you'll see what I am talking about. This doesn't even touch on the global and strategic implications of China controlling this critical element.

Another issue is the non-recyclable nature of the batteries. Perhaps an industry will develop to recycle them, but until then it is hazardous and expensive to deal with them.

Finally, there is the issues of fires. The risk of self ignition is real and greater than most people realize. As we see more higher capacity and greater electrical flux in batteries, coupled with more vehicles on the road, we'll see more of these.

I am not saying that these things will kill or hinder the proliferation of EV, but represent real challenges as more people adopt them.

 

[Readytoride]

Another issue is the non-recyclable nature of the batteries. Perhaps an industry will develop to recycle them, but until then it is hazardous and expensive to deal with them.

Not the case at all. This is an old scare tactic by the anti-EV crowd that has long been debunked. Old batteries are easily "recycled" by replacing worn or dead cells with new cells and are going back into cars, or grabbed by Industy to be used as solar storage batteries. In fact, used EV batteries are in huge demand

Again, EV batteries do NOT get tossed, nor are they hazardous or expensive to repurpose. They are far too valuable and useful for other purposes.

 

[Readytoride]

Finally, there is the issues of fires. The risk of self ignition is real

Only if you buy an old Chevy Bolt. On the other hand gas engine fires are a daily occurance everywhere. Everywhere. Daily. Fact of life with toxic combustion fuels. They explode. And do so on a regular basis. We live with that happening every day to the point where we no longer think about it because it is commonplace.

Batteries are far, far safer than any combustion engine which relies upon explosive fuel to provide the energy to work.

 

[Roamers]

We are still in the early stages of adopting electric cars over gas powered cars. The infrastructure is moving fast to support EVs on highways and interstates and stop-and-charge facilities in public places.

Just an observation (EV doesn't really work for me). October was a busy travel month for us. Just drove 922 miles yesterday from Atlanta area to Moline, IL by way of Fort Wayne, IN. Zero service stations on interstates, zero charging stations (that I saw) at rest stops. (1) charging station (that I saw) at the Love's and Circle Ks I stopped at for fuel. Similar experience driving 750ish miles heading down last week.

2 weeks ago we did Moline to Loveland, CO; similar observations.

This summer we did Moline to central Maine; hundreds of charging stations at Interstate fuel stops (always full with waiting lines.

The difference: IN, OH, NY, MA, and (I think) NH and ME interstate rest areas on that trip had refueling facilities. IL, KY, TN, GA, IN, NE, WY, CO interstate rest areas on those trips did not.

EV are long way from prime time for road warriors.

 

[BigNerd]

About China... EVERYTHING is made there... not just EV batteries.

So there is a lot more we need to stop buying from them if we are really worried about worker rights.

But I digress... the new EV credits are based on North America material and assembly so we will see more domestic production. I just wonder about cost because there is a reason everything is made in China.

 

[procreator]

Not the case at all. This is an old scare tactic by the anti-EV crowd that has long been debunked.

This paints an unrealistically rosy picture of the current state. Perhaps in time the battery recycling technology will catch up with battery technology, but for now that is not the case. An article in Science describes the recycling process. An article in Autoblog also shows the different approaches to recycling or re-purposing EV batteries. They state, "...recycling batteries is not cheap, efficient, nor quick. That will change in time, but for now, there’s work to do. Costs should eventually fall once there are enough EVs on the road to create benefits of scale, and there are uses for batteries once their lives powering electric vehicles come to an end."

Old batteries are easily "recycled" by replacing worn or dead cells with new cells and are going back into cars

You must be thinking of this EV.

 

[Readytoride]

EV drivers use Plugshare.com, or their car's navigation tools, to find charging stations, especially the Level 3 fast chargers. Her is a snapshot of the charging stations available from Atlanta to Moline. Please bear in mind that because charging stations do not have the huge presence that gas stations have (due to storage of toxic, flammable fuel) that you can pass right next to a charging station and not even know it was there.

The orange bullets are Level 3 fast charging facilities. The green bullets are the slower Level 2 which is generally free for use. Anything is a wrench symbol are chargers under construction. PlugShare includes a popup window for every bullet point that gives directions to the site, number and type of charge plugs, any costs to use, and user "check-in" comments regarding the charging facilities. Many were built out long before the federal interstate got on board with starting to include EV facilities. So, by default, many on this map are just off the interstate. Not what our time-centric driving public is used to having, but still available if one wants to use an off ramp. The federal highway commission is very reluctant to have any private business intrude on their turf, so the build out of EV charging had to have the backing of big enough enterprises (EVgo, Electrify America, Tesla) to cover vast miles of interstate with chargers. Plus they were constrained to be sited where there were already fueling facilities that, on whole, are usually spaced at 50 miles apart.

I could snapshot other maps of the charging available for each of your trips, but I'm guessing you get the idea from the above. Incidentally, I did not include Tesla charging stations in this map. Otherwise it would have been nothing but a solid pic of bullet points.

And yes, you are right - the infrastructure needed for tomorrow's electric based transportation still has a long way to go. The government works at a snail's pace, but with the recent Green Infrastructure bill just enacted, hopefully that snail will move just a bit quicker in the much needed build out on the nation's interstates. Least we forget it took Eisenhower to enact legislation in 1956 to actually have an interstate highway system built (through 1969 at the cost of $25 billion in 1950 currency), long long after cars had already become popular (1920s) and had been traversing the country for years. And he had to do it under the banner of national defense. Fuel companies, if they wanted to be the ones to have a golden opportunity to sell fuel to travelers, had to procure a federal contract to build gas stations on the route, were highly regulated via price and standard of facilities, and had to include restroom facilites as well. Only the big dogs had enough capital to play.

Just 2 years ago this snapshot of Plugshare (online app debuted in 2011) would have had only 1/3 of these charging stations. The electrification is following the exact same footsteps of the gas stations in the 1940s and 50s of being in towns and cities enroute. We've already come a long way, as the snail crawls, with an interstate presense, with a long road still to go.

 

[Readytoride]

This paints an unrealistically rosy picture of the current state. Perhaps in time the battery recycling technology will catch up with battery technology, but for now that is not the case. An article in Science describes the recycling process

Sorry, but that article was written a year and a half ago. Old news no longer relevant as we move into 2023 with multiple industries now snatching up older EV batteries to repurpose them.

 

[Readytoride]

You must be thinking of this EV.

No, not really. MB is a newcomer to the game. My thoughts were more Nissan and Tesla, both long time entries in the EV world (2010 and 2009) in manufacture and sales. Leaf batteries became bi-directional with the inclusion of the Level 3 direct current Chademo port, and in 2012 Nissan began touting the "power your home from your Leaf car battery " sales pitch for the car. Sort of a gimmick because for all these years, from 2012 to 2022, they never released the bi-directional hardware/technology outside of Japan. Poor management decision on their part because power backup facilities worldwide are now using the Leaf batteries with their own homegrown software/hardware.

 

[Roamers]

Her is a snapshot of the charging stations available from Atlanta to Moline

If the point of the symbol is where the station is, very few what I would consider "near the highway" (2) before Chattanooga, one around Indy and (2) within 100 miles of home. As I said not for the road warrior; probably would work for around town. Like I said, I find it interesting the difference in fueling (of all types) infrastructure "on/near the interstates in different regions of the country.

Although yesterday was a couple hours longer than my normal trip, add 1.5 hours to trip below (45 minutes at warehouse for material pickup and 6 pee/food stops); would probably turn into overnight trip with EV.

 

[EMGX]

Unless doing it for fun it is pointless to attempt rational discussion of issues with an ideologue on either end of a spectrum.
If California and my California wannabee Washington had wanted to take any sort of measured approach they could have mandated plug in hybrids. But no - because laws and regulations are often driven by politics and ideology rather than sound reason and logic. Politicians and their mandates can swing wildly from election to election. In then end many votes are decided by overriding concerns regarding effects on one's pocketbook and perceived quality of life issues. Laws and regulations can be modified at the stroke of a pen. I'm interested, but not concerned, about how this will all pan out but for now I don't see an EV as viably meeting my needs.
If environment, economic and social equity, and reason really were top priorities then effective mass transit for high population centers would be the overriding priority rather than personal transportation/EVs but it seems that car culture dependency knows no ideological boundaries.

 

[Mulezen]

Now if the company would only get into ebikes…

How the world's largest auto parts supplier is evolving its business for the EV era

I was invited to tour Bosch’s Charleston, South Carolina, facility to see firsthand the evolution of the world’s largest auto parts supplier as the industry transitions to electric vehicles. Stepping into the facility is like entering Willy Wonka’s chocolate factory, but instead of chocolate...

electrek.co

 

[procreator]

No, not really. MB is a newcomer to the game.

Either you didn't watch the video or have zero sense of humor.

 

[Readytoride]

Although yesterday was a couple hours longer than my normal trip, add 1.5 hours to trip below (45 minutes at warehouse for material pickup and 6 pee/food stops); would probably turn into overnight trip with EV.

Really depends upon the range of the EV, plus the charging speed.

What's nice about the EV is you can leave it charging while you go eat (if the restaurant is within walking distance) or take a bathroom break. An EV doesn't require you remain with it while being charged. Plus you don't reek of gasoline stench afterwards.

 

[Readytoride]

Unless doing it for fun it is pointless to attempt rational discussion of issues with an ideologue on either end of a spectrum.

Speaking for myself, I do like listening to what others have to say about their worries concerning the transportation transition from gas to electric. It gives me a wider perspective beyond my limited experience, and a greater appreciation for all the hurtles that are still in place that make the switch to EVs scary for people who just don't quite understand what to expect. Their life with an ICE is comfortable, well suited for them, and while the rising fuel prices are a problem, they see that as an annoyance rather than a deterrent. Global warming and moving away from using toxic fuel seems to be lower on their priority list then the cost to buy a new vehicle that is an EV with a completely new support infrastructure.

So I kinda do have fun discussing the advantages of EV life with ICE owners, and hopefully help ease some of the concerns over the unknown. It isn't until you jump in with both feet that you get the full picture of how to deal with your new EV, and how to live with the "new normal". Most people prefer to dip their toes in the waters first to see if the temp is to their liking. So unless you spend the money to rent an EV to "try out" that lifestyle, and go to the expense and trouble of installing an EVSE in your garage or scout out the local charging stations if you are an apartment or condo dweller, you will have to go whole hog with a big ticket purchase before you can honestly know first hand how an EV will suit your lifestyle. Most, if not all, people want to make a correct decision the first time.

One thing I have noticed is that ICE owners are aware that they will have to eventually go EV, so most of their questions are along the lines of what they feel they "won't be able to do" with an EV that they can do now with an ICE. It's very educational on both sides of the conversation, and I am always coming away with better understanding of how and why people drive what they do, and how attached they are to their "normal".

 

[Readytoride]

Either you didn't watch the video or have zero sense of humor.

Didn't watch the video. Sorry. I just did, and it was funny. Classic SNL humor. But scary at how close the skit came to what MB would conceivably put on the road.

 

[Roamers]

It gives me a wider perspective beyond my limited experience, and a greater appreciation for all the hurtles that are still in place that make the switch to EVs scary for people who just don't quite understand what to expect.

Why do you think it is "scary" for people that don't care for the EV "travelstyle" (not lifestyle).

There is no question that these days a majority of population could get by with an EV since a high percentage of daily travel is within "charge it overnight at home" range. I don't recall the exact numbers, but when we bought our current 2020 Ascent, it was pre-similar sized EV availability and the premium for a similar sized hybrid was not justifiable (considering fuel costs).

For 90% of the miles we do, when an E van (170 4X4 Sprinter-like) is available that can be "refueled" every 350 miles in 15 minutes or every 700 miles overnight (anywhere) with a lifetime battery warrenty and less than a 15% price priemium, I'm in. Not scary at all. But at 67 years old, doubt I will see it.