phev was a typo, they meant pleb
Electric Car thread
- Thread starter WattsUpDude
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phev was a typo, they meant pleb
pmcdonald
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Sydney is currently navigating how they provision charging access for residents with no off street parking. It'll be worked out in time - capitalism is good at finding solutions where there's a market - but there's some equity and access issues in this space to be sure.
We airbnbed in a complex with a massive underground car park (in our ICE car). There wasn't a power point in sight. Not impossible to retrofit the place with ports for each parking space, but then the usage would need to be tied to the apartment owner. This was a complex built less than 2 years ago, so it's not even on many developers or LGAs radars yet.
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procreator
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This guy makes some good points when comparing EVs, hybrids, and ICE powered vehicles.
Bottom line: For now, hybrids are the best choice for reducing carbon emissions. You would need to drive an EV about 450,000 miles to gain benefit over hybrids in terms of total carbon footprint.
The Contradictions of Battery-Operated Vehicles
Bottom line: For now, hybrids are the best choice for reducing carbon emissions. You would need to drive an EV about 450,000 miles to gain benefit over hybrids in terms of total carbon footprint.
The Contradictions of Battery-Operated Vehicles
mschwett
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lol, i’m not sure how you get from “renter” to “homeless.”
parking in new rental buildings in california require ev charging spaces and the electrical infrastructure has to be capable of supporting new chargers, should a renter want to add more. most people who rent and have a car have a parking space. most parking spaces are near enough to power that chargers could be added if one wanted to.
most people buying EVs probably drive them to work fairly often, so they can charge there
and finally, there are the public or private network charging stations.
last i checked, nobody i know who rents or owns has a gas station either in their home or work.
Readytoride
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We are still in the early stages of adopting electric cars over gas powered cars. The infrastructure is moving fast to support EVs on highways and interstates and stop-and-charge facilities in public places. What hasn't been addressed as much as it should be, is the ability for people who rent apartments, or live in condos, or live in high-rises, to have on site infrastructure for supporting electric cars. And that is only because the percentage of EVS at the moment is very small, and not at all at the point where it would be financially advantageous for apartments or condos to start retrofitting. They are actually going to have to be pushed, not only by their clients and owners, but by local and state government to have facilities available. It's going to take a whopping amount of money to have these private charging facilities put in place. But it will be done, because progress doesn't move backwards. And places that can advertise that they have charging facilities, or have outlets available at each parking space that will support a Level 1 or 2 EVSE, have a bigger market for choosing to rent from them.
Right now, most renters that have EVs that need to go to a public Level 2 or Level 3 are really no different from renters who have gas cars that have to go to gasoline stations to fill up. In the coming years this will change. It's just going to take a matter of time, and sometimes a matter of government, before rentals and condo owners get the same type of instant gratification that homeowners have in just plugging in at home.
Also, today's EVs are being designed with longer range batteries that will allow someone who has a shorter commute, or only uses their car to run around locally in town, to go for days between charging. So quite possibly these people will only need to hit up a charger once or twice a week.
Again, the change to the infrastructure is moving extremely fast. I am looking at it from the perspective of one who has owned an EV for 4 years when there really was a scarcity of public EV support systems outside of Tesla's amazing and well thought out, albeit proprietary, infrastructure, and can see how much has been changed , improved, and expanded to add the support system needed for electric vehicles.
BigNerd
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I think that many people feel like EVs is just about "saving the environment". I think there are other aspects to EVs that are beneficial... it will reduce reliance on fossil fuels, it reduces noise pollution, it reduces maintenance costs, it saves people time, etc etc etc. And as many electric producers are moving to renewable energy, that just improves everything all around.
Remote work also has helped usher in more EV adoption. You drive less, thus you need less range and have less range anxiety. We are even thinking of reducing the number of cars in our household because we just don't independently need transportation any more. Many things can be delivered (Amazon Prime is awesome) so the need to drive goes down. Now before you think we are looking at a Wall-E future... that's where ebikes can help us get outside.
Side note: I am seeing many more golf carts in my area... so there is another adjacent paradigm shift.
procreator
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EVs are the future, and offer wonderful benefits. However, people often turn a blind eye to the entire ecosystem around building and powering them.
One of the key minerals in making the high flux magnets needed for the motors is neodymium. China sits on top of 90% of the world's supply. China has a horrible human rights record. Just search "China Uyghur" and you'll see what I am talking about. This doesn't even touch on the global and strategic implications of China controlling this critical element.
Another issue is the non-recyclable nature of the batteries. Perhaps an industry will develop to recycle them, but until then it is hazardous and expensive to deal with them.
Finally, there is the issues of fires. The risk of self ignition is real and greater than most people realize. As we see more higher capacity and greater electrical flux in batteries, coupled with more vehicles on the road, we'll see more of these.
I am not saying that these things will kill or hinder the proliferation of EV, but represent real challenges as more people adopt them.
One of the key minerals in making the high flux magnets needed for the motors is neodymium. China sits on top of 90% of the world's supply. China has a horrible human rights record. Just search "China Uyghur" and you'll see what I am talking about. This doesn't even touch on the global and strategic implications of China controlling this critical element.
Another issue is the non-recyclable nature of the batteries. Perhaps an industry will develop to recycle them, but until then it is hazardous and expensive to deal with them.
Finally, there is the issues of fires. The risk of self ignition is real and greater than most people realize. As we see more higher capacity and greater electrical flux in batteries, coupled with more vehicles on the road, we'll see more of these.
I am not saying that these things will kill or hinder the proliferation of EV, but represent real challenges as more people adopt them.
Readytoride
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Not the case at all. This is an old scare tactic by the anti-EV crowd that has long been debunked. Old batteries are easily "recycled" by replacing worn or dead cells with new cells and are going back into cars, or grabbed by Industy to be used as solar storage batteries. In fact, used EV batteries are in huge demand
Again, EV batteries do NOT get tossed, nor are they hazardous or expensive to repurpose. They are far too valuable and useful for other purposes.
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Readytoride
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Only if you buy an old Chevy Bolt.
On the other hand gas engine fires are a daily occurance everywhere. Everywhere. Daily. Fact of life with toxic combustion fuels. They explode. And do so on a regular basis. We live with that happening every day to the point where we no longer think about it because it is commonplace.Batteries are far, far safer than any combustion engine which relies upon explosive fuel to provide the energy to work.
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Just an observation (EV doesn't really work for me). October was a busy travel month for us. Just drove 922 miles yesterday from Atlanta area to Moline, IL by way of Fort Wayne, IN. Zero service stations on interstates, zero charging stations (that I saw) at rest stops. (1) charging station (that I saw) at the Love's and Circle Ks I stopped at for fuel. Similar experience driving 750ish miles heading down last week.
2 weeks ago we did Moline to Loveland, CO; similar observations.
This summer we did Moline to central Maine; hundreds of charging stations at Interstate fuel stops (always full with waiting lines.
The difference: IN, OH, NY, MA, and (I think) NH and ME interstate rest areas on that trip had refueling facilities. IL, KY, TN, GA, IN, NE, WY, CO interstate rest areas on those trips did not.
EV are long way from prime time for road warriors.
kevinmccune
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Think about what you just said . Can you explain to me how they went this far back in time to know this ? It's just speculation based on made up data charts and numbers . Plus there's no evidence earth is 10,000 years old let alone billions of years old. It's rather telling that Bible gives us a basis of post flood around 4500- 5000 years ago. Now I know there's scientists not science that attempt to make claims things are older . But what we have of recorded dated historical accounts starts no farther back then 5000 years ago.
It's kinda hard for me to take a claim as though fact from 2 billion plus years ago . When we have no records . NONE........ Look what the evolution scientist's claim . That we have recorded Pre-historic proof?? That's impossible . Pre-history means before records . Before His story of accounts .
Maybe we will see some of Micah Tolls awesome Chinese EVs around, theres a few of those things that make sense. Every time I pickup my rechargeable tools it makes me happy, no cord, no ICE to spool up, with the brushless ones no ozone to contend with. People will have to get over it ,the age of the rechargeable Electric is here, I have never had a fire from any battery-powered device ever, some of the old timers didn't like rechargeable tools because they heard of battery fires burning a house down,Hockey!
One day I will probably own an EV car or truck, not to save the environment, no, because its better.
BigNerd
Well-Known Member
About China... EVERYTHING is made there... not just EV batteries.
So there is a lot more we need to stop buying from them if we are really worried about worker rights.
But I digress... the new EV credits are based on North America material and assembly so we will see more domestic production. I just wonder about cost because there is a reason everything is made in China.
So there is a lot more we need to stop buying from them if we are really worried about worker rights.
But I digress... the new EV credits are based on North America material and assembly so we will see more domestic production. I just wonder about cost because there is a reason everything is made in China.
procreator
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This paints an unrealistically rosy picture of the current state. Perhaps in time the battery recycling technology will catch up with battery technology, but for now that is not the case. An article in Science describes the recycling process. An article in Autoblog also shows the different approaches to recycling or re-purposing EV batteries. They state, "...recycling batteries is not cheap, efficient, nor quick. That will change in time, but for now, there’s work to do. Costs should eventually fall once there are enough EVs on the road to create benefits of scale, and there are uses for batteries once their lives powering electric vehicles come to an end."
You must be thinking of this EV.
Readytoride
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EV drivers use Plugshare.com, or their car's navigation tools, to find charging stations, especially the Level 3 fast chargers. Her is a snapshot of the charging stations available from Atlanta to Moline. Please bear in mind that because charging stations do not have the huge presence that gas stations have (due to storage of toxic, flammable fuel) that you can pass right next to a charging station and not even know it was there.
The orange bullets are Level 3 fast charging facilities. The green bullets are the slower Level 2 which is generally free for use. Anything is a wrench symbol are chargers under construction. PlugShare includes a popup window for every bullet point that gives directions to the site, number and type of charge plugs, any costs to use, and user "check-in" comments regarding the charging facilities. Many were built out long before the federal interstate got on board with starting to include EV facilities. So, by default, many on this map are just off the interstate. Not what our time-centric driving public is used to having, but still available if one wants to use an off ramp. The federal highway commission is very reluctant to have any private business intrude on their turf, so the build out of EV charging had to have the backing of big enough enterprises (EVgo, Electrify America, Tesla) to cover vast miles of interstate with chargers. Plus they were constrained to be sited where there were already fueling facilities that, on whole, are usually spaced at 50 miles apart.
I could snapshot other maps of the charging available for each of your trips, but I'm guessing you get the idea from the above. Incidentally, I did not include Tesla charging stations in this map. Otherwise it would have been nothing but a solid pic of bullet points.
And yes, you are right - the infrastructure needed for tomorrow's electric based transportation still has a long way to go. The government works at a snail's pace, but with the recent Green Infrastructure bill just enacted, hopefully that snail will move just a bit quicker in the much needed build out on the nation's interstates. Least we forget it took Eisenhower to enact legislation in 1956 to actually have an interstate highway system built (through 1969 at the cost of $25 billion in 1950 currency), long long after cars had already become popular (1920s) and had been traversing the country for years. And he had to do it under the banner of national defense. Fuel companies, if they wanted to be the ones to have a golden opportunity to sell fuel to travelers, had to procure a federal contract to build gas stations on the route, were highly regulated via price and standard of facilities, and had to include restroom facilites as well. Only the big dogs had enough capital to play.
Just 2 years ago this snapshot of Plugshare (online app debuted in 2011) would have had only 1/3 of these charging stations. The electrification is following the exact same footsteps of the gas stations in the 1940s and 50s of being in towns and cities enroute. We've already come a long way, as the snail crawls, with an interstate presense, with a long road still to go.
The orange bullets are Level 3 fast charging facilities. The green bullets are the slower Level 2 which is generally free for use. Anything is a wrench symbol are chargers under construction. PlugShare includes a popup window for every bullet point that gives directions to the site, number and type of charge plugs, any costs to use, and user "check-in" comments regarding the charging facilities. Many were built out long before the federal interstate got on board with starting to include EV facilities. So, by default, many on this map are just off the interstate. Not what our time-centric driving public is used to having, but still available if one wants to use an off ramp. The federal highway commission is very reluctant to have any private business intrude on their turf, so the build out of EV charging had to have the backing of big enough enterprises (EVgo, Electrify America, Tesla) to cover vast miles of interstate with chargers. Plus they were constrained to be sited where there were already fueling facilities that, on whole, are usually spaced at 50 miles apart.
I could snapshot other maps of the charging available for each of your trips, but I'm guessing you get the idea from the above. Incidentally, I did not include Tesla charging stations in this map. Otherwise it would have been nothing but a solid pic of bullet points.
And yes, you are right - the infrastructure needed for tomorrow's electric based transportation still has a long way to go. The government works at a snail's pace, but with the recent Green Infrastructure bill just enacted, hopefully that snail will move just a bit quicker in the much needed build out on the nation's interstates. Least we forget it took Eisenhower to enact legislation in 1956 to actually have an interstate highway system built (through 1969 at the cost of $25 billion in 1950 currency), long long after cars had already become popular (1920s) and had been traversing the country for years. And he had to do it under the banner of national defense. Fuel companies, if they wanted to be the ones to have a golden opportunity to sell fuel to travelers, had to procure a federal contract to build gas stations on the route, were highly regulated via price and standard of facilities, and had to include restroom facilites as well. Only the big dogs had enough capital to play.
Just 2 years ago this snapshot of Plugshare (online app debuted in 2011) would have had only 1/3 of these charging stations. The electrification is following the exact same footsteps of the gas stations in the 1940s and 50s of being in towns and cities enroute. We've already come a long way, as the snail crawls, with an interstate presense, with a long road still to go.
Readytoride
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Sorry, but that article was written a year and a half ago. Old news no longer relevant as we move into 2023 with multiple industries now snatching up older EV batteries to repurpose them.
Readytoride
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No, not really. MB is a newcomer to the game. My thoughts were more Nissan and Tesla, both long time entries in the EV world (2010 and 2009) in manufacture and sales. Leaf batteries became bi-directional with the inclusion of the Level 3 direct current Chademo port, and in 2012 Nissan began touting the "power your home from your Leaf car battery " sales pitch for the car. Sort of a gimmick because for all these years, from 2012 to 2022, they never released the bi-directional hardware/technology outside of Japan. Poor management decision on their part because power backup facilities worldwide are now using the Leaf batteries with their own homegrown software/hardware.
If the point of the symbol is where the station is, very few what I would consider "near the highway" (2) before Chattanooga, one around Indy and (2) within 100 miles of home. As I said not for the road warrior; probably would work for around town. Like I said, I find it interesting the difference in fueling (of all types) infrastructure "on/near the interstates in different regions of the country.
Although yesterday was a couple hours longer than my normal trip, add 1.5 hours to trip below (45 minutes at warehouse for material pickup and 6 pee/food stops); would probably turn into overnight trip with EV.
Attachments
Unless doing it for fun it is pointless to attempt rational discussion of issues with an ideologue on either end of a spectrum.
If California and my California wannabee Washington had wanted to take any sort of measured approach they could have mandated plug in hybrids. But no - because laws and regulations are often driven by politics and ideology rather than sound reason and logic. Politicians and their mandates can swing wildly from election to election. In then end many votes are decided by overriding concerns regarding effects on one's pocketbook and perceived quality of life issues. Laws and regulations can be modified at the stroke of a pen. I'm interested, but not concerned, about how this will all pan out but for now I don't see an EV as viably meeting my needs.
If environment, economic and social equity, and reason really were top priorities then effective mass transit for high population centers would be the overriding priority rather than personal transportation/EVs but it seems that car culture dependency knows no ideological boundaries.
If California and my California wannabee Washington had wanted to take any sort of measured approach they could have mandated plug in hybrids. But no - because laws and regulations are often driven by politics and ideology rather than sound reason and logic. Politicians and their mandates can swing wildly from election to election. In then end many votes are decided by overriding concerns regarding effects on one's pocketbook and perceived quality of life issues. Laws and regulations can be modified at the stroke of a pen. I'm interested, but not concerned, about how this will all pan out but for now I don't see an EV as viably meeting my needs.
If environment, economic and social equity, and reason really were top priorities then effective mass transit for high population centers would be the overriding priority rather than personal transportation/EVs but it seems that car culture dependency knows no ideological boundaries.
Mulezen
Well-Known Member
Now if the company would only get into ebikes…
electrek.co
How the world's largest auto parts supplier is evolving its business for the EV era
I was invited to tour Bosch’s Charleston, South Carolina, facility to see firsthand the evolution of the world’s largest auto parts supplier as the industry transitions to electric vehicles. Stepping into the facility is like entering Willy Wonka’s chocolate factory, but instead of chocolate...
electrek.co
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