Electric Car thread

I have no problem with EV . What I have a problem with as I have said before . The supposed urgency to get rid of gas/oil . They are pushing a false narrative to even suggest such a thing is possible . All of our polymers and other plastics used in vehicles are oil based products -batteries need coal . To eliminate carbon emissions to saveeeee the planet . Is simply a lie being pushed to regulate us . Something they can't do off the grid. Seriously who are they trying to kid with this Climate change bull? Every time 1 volcano spews ash sets this C02 nonsense on it's #$#$ . Nord Stream ???
That's my problem. EV are fine / But they should be part of the Energy source . Not all of it .
Its been said before, warmer climates are better for Humans, if its so cold we can't raise grain there will be mass starvation. I believe its time to address more urgent things, such as the elimination of nuclear weapons.
 
Its been said before, warmer climates are better for Humans, if its so cold we can't raise grain there will be mass starvation. I believe its time to address more urgent things, such as the elimination of nuclear weapons.
Not so for a complex number of over lapping reasons. check where the corn belt is moving…and how quickly. The latest hurricane in Florida (last week) is another example of what the warming climate is producing…historical droughts and extreme weather etc. Massive accelerating immigration…parts of the world ME…slices of India among others) too hot Now to live in. And the Russians, particularly in their West, who relished the warming are changing their tune.
Climate is no simple thing, and neither is evolution…it takes time for one to get used to another…200 years is the equivalent of jumping off a cliff
 
I fully expect there will be a whole new set of players in the EV landscape. The big motor companies are heavily capitalized and cannot pivot on a dime. They are optimized to design and build vehicles around gasoline-powered drivelines. While they have some EV offerings, newcomers can come in with fresh ideas and not tied to the historical ways of designing and building vehicles. I am old enough to remember when the Detroit big three tried putting diesel engines in gas-powered cars in the 1980's. An unmitigated disaster.

Companies like Tesla can design an EV from scratch and capitalize around building it. There are and will continue to be others like Tesla who have fresh ideas and the courage to execute them. Of the existing ones, only the nimble ones will survive, unless the gov't deems them "too big to fail" and bails them out as they have in the past.

I also predict that there will be a convergence of technology, especially concerning battery design. The economics of each company designing its own battery and figuring out how to dispose of or recycle it are too difficult. Companies will get together and agree on various technologies, and then concerted development will occur. We have seen this with cell phones (e.g., 4g, 5g) and a host of other technologies.
I wouldn't underestimate the ICE legacies... Ford was able to turn around an EV truck in less time than Tesla and Rivian and the result is exactly what helped many buyers jump in... a EV that looked like the ICE truck people were used to. The Mach-E is also a "success".

Mercedes has an interesting strategy of ground-up EVs and EV from gas converts (like what Hyundai and Kia are doing with the Kona and Niro).

Speaking of the Koreans, the Ioniq 5 and EV6 are great vehicles and their future models look very good.

Now if only the Japanese brands can figure it out.
 
Not so for a complex number of over lapping reasons. check where the corn belt is moving…and how quickly. The latest hurricane in Florida (last week) is another example of what the warming climate is producing…historical droughts and extreme weather etc. Massive accelerating immigration…parts of the world ME…slices of India among others) too hot Now to live in. And the Russians, particularly in their West, who relished the warming are changing their tune.
Climate is no simple thing, and neither is evolution…it takes time for one to get used to another…200 years is the equivalent of jumping off a cliff
Historically People did better during the warmer periods, one factor overlooked is the luminosity of the sun itself. Climate is the average long-term trend, weather is what happens in shorter periods of time. The prime farmland in these parts is being converted into solar collectors and townhouses, back on the day houses were built in the poorer areas of land, the oil-based artificial "Ag-boom" was not in full effect yet( we literally eat oil) if People want to follow People who live in monstrous mansions, more power to them, we had better start finding replacements for this "Hydro carbon" based society than worrying about the poor sap who cannot afford an EV and must drive an old ICE jalopy around.As much as I liked President Obama,I believe that "cash for clunkers" was short-sighted, a lot of good older cars were destroyed for no reason. I watched them destroy a very good-looking late model turbo Volvo they drained the oil out and chucked the sodium silicate in the crankcase, it was sickening it took almost 10 minutes for that car to die.
I love EVs, the trouble is they will not contribute in a meaningful way for a very long time to the goal of a slight reduction in CO2 PPMs( do the math and you will realize that CO2 is a trace gas in the atmosphere.) Some were so convinced it was such an efficient heat trap gas it was tried in place of argon for insulated windows, it was a miserable failure in some instances it made the windows less efficient. I am not saying its good(except for plants) I just believe the dangers were overstated. Historically we have always had ups and downs in the weather, beware of "Hockey sticks" 50 years ago it was believed we were headed into another ice age.
 
I wouldn't underestimate the ICE legacies... Ford was able to turn around an EV truck in less time than Tesla and Rivian and the result is exactly what helped many buyers jump in... a EV that looked like the ICE truck people were used to. The Mach-E is also a "success".

Mercedes has an interesting strategy of ground-up EVs and EV from gas converts (like what Hyundai and Kia are doing with the Kona and Niro).

Speaking of the Koreans, the Ioniq 5 and EV6 are great vehicles and their future models look very good.

Now if only the Japanese brands can figure it out.
And Rivian is a partner with Mercedes with a shared interest in a Silicon anode Solid State battery developer.
The ICE legacy production is certainly true. supply chain issues hurt Ford Lightning‘s introduction but it has fine reviews and like you said a familiar face.
 
Does your federal government incentivise EV purchases?
At the state level we have a $3k rebate for the first 25k EVs sold under $68750. They're also planning a 2.5c/km charge on EVs from 2027. Their goal is 50% EV sales by 2030.

For reference a base model Tesla 3 here is $68375. The cheapest passenger EV on our market is the MG ZS for about $45k. BYD drop in at high $40ks for more range, Leaf $53k-$64k, then everyone else (Hyundai, Kia, Polestar, etc) sits around that Telsa 3 price and up. The average car price last year was apparently $40k, and the average individual income $52k.

Our federal government has announced some tax breaks for EVs in the next financial year which will accelerate uptake, at least for leased and salary sacrificed vehicles.
 
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Climate is the average long-term trend, weather is what happens in shorter periods of time.
After 30+ years of hockey stick terrors, they still will not say how long or how much of weather data it takes to make climate data. They'll say that 30 years is a "climatic period", but will not elaborate.
It's the biggest graft pit ever imagined.
 
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EVs represent a minuscule part of our market here in Australia. But the trend is real. Manufacturers can't get enough product to market to meet demand here.
It will happen. It just takes time... an extended amount of time to be sure thanks to the disruptions of a global pandemic. Happened to the first transition from horse to automobile, too. The 1918 pandemic and the global WWI set the new transportation industry on the backburner until the mid 1920s. Give it four more years, and the 1st world roads will be looking vastly different with more charging opportunities than gas stations, and lots and lots of EVs everywhere
One interesting local development: BYD launched here recently. Their vehicles feature a tray arrangement for the batteries. In theory they could be quickly swapped out at a petrol station by an attendent, similar to a swap and go gas bottle. Watch this space.
I don't think this is going to be a viable idea to actually make it to market. The batteries for cars are too big, too integrated into the structure and complexities of the modern car, and requires too much expensive infrastructure and experienced personnel to be worth the effort. Charging stations can be placed anywhere there is an electric outlet, can be solar if there isn't a grid, can be overnight slow or 20 minutes super quick.




.
 
It will happen. It just takes time... an extended amount of time to be sure thanks to the disruptions of a global pandemic. Happened to the first transition from horse to automobile, too. The 1918 pandemic and the global WWI set the new transportation industry on the backburner until the mid 1920s. Give it four more years, and the 1st world roads will be looking vastly different with more charging opportunities than gas stations, and lots and lots of EVs everywhere

I don't think this is going to be a viable idea to actually make it to market. The batteries for cars are too big, too integrated into the structure and complexities of the modern car, and requires too much expensive infrastructure and experienced personnel to be worth the effort. Charging stations can be placed anywhere there is an electric outlet, can be solar if there isn't a grid, can be overnight slow or 20 minutes super quick.




.More smaller batteries?
 
After 30+ years of hockey stick terrors, they still will not say how long or how much of weather data it takes to make climate data. They'll say that 30 years is a "climatic period", but will not elaborate.
It's the biggest graft pit ever imagined.
Ivy League? Are weather events so complex and esoteric the 'Common Man' cannot grasp? I am usually fairly accurate on my rain and snow predictions, there are certain key events that an amateur prognosticator can use with fairly accurate results. Around here on the public radio station,they have so-called "local weathermen'( which are usually statisticians that engage in a 'more" competition( colder.hotter faster wind etc) get tired of hearing that drivel.
 
And then we have an interesting "add" to the story from Electrik.co who interviewed the woman in the NYT story

Reporter Seth Weintrab wrote:
I was excited to read today’s NYTimes piece on mainstreaming of electric vehicles. The story with two separate author bylines could theoretically convince middle America that it was OK to consider buying an EV, even if there were places like “North Dakota, for example, [where] there are just 19 fast chargers.” But I found myself cringing because of incomplete reporting and a strong desire to set the record straight.

...


Just an excerpt where what was "missing" was uncovered:

....

She told me (and the NYT, though they didn’t report it) the following:

  • She started out the journey with only 80% charge (already down to 200 mile range) because of a settings issue.
  • She had a bike rack and bike on the back.
  • She had a 3×3 foot soft roof rack on the top – multiple backpacks tied down.
  • She was driving 65-70mph on the trip and stopped with about a 20% charge in Findlay, Ohio, to look for chargers. At that point, she was SOL because all four level 2 chargers in town were unusable. The closest usable charger was outside of her current range and the car was ultimately towed to a working fast charger in Upper Sandusky, pictured at top.
So now the range problem makes a lot more sense. In my experience, adding a bike rack will reduce range by 15-20%. A roof rack will do the same. So starting with her 80% of 250 miles = 200 miles, she really left the house with about 150 miles of range at best. We also know that slowing down will really help when there is a higher coefficient of drag, and she was going close to 70mph.

Why am I calling this out?

I’m not here to shame the NYTimes or its writers on the omissions in their article. I do think the story needs a correction to note that aerodynamics – not weight – is the major factor in highway driving range because I think EV and potential EV drivers need to know this information. I think they chose this story because of the harrowing outcome, but that’s speculation.

I’m also not here to fault Ms. Milligan, who obviously is an EV advocate who wasn’t told about the significance of potential range hits when adding bikes and roof rack. A bigger issue, however, is that she trusted the VW ID.4’s internal EV charger finding map, which told her about potential charging backups but not the reliability of each of these stations. There are still a lot of calculations to make when driving EVs on trips that typical drivers just don’t have to consider. I think her tale can and should be a cautionary one.

However, instead of the POV of the story where there is uncertainty on why the EV didn’t get the expected range, we can have some faith in the numbers that are shown. “Range anxiety” is about uncertainty. Now we know why she couldn’t make the trip.

*******

Why oh why is that outdated "advice" to only charge to 80% still being paraded out to the public like an 80 year old at a Junior Miss pageant? If I can offer only one piece of advice to any new (or old) EV owner, it's to charge your car at home (Level 2) to 100% all the time, every time. Even if you plan to store it for a while. It will not hurt the battery, won't kill it or maim it or otherwise destroy it. Batteries today have a charge state buffer built in to hold the battery at an optimum "full charge state". My 4 year old Leaf's buffer is 96%. Even if my dashboard says 100%, the actual charge is 96%.

The ONLY time 80% comes into play is when you are Level 3 fast charging because your car's system starts throttling the high speed to a lower speed in order for the cells to start being balanced. Which means that when you hit 80% the Level 3 high speed charging drops to a much slower speed (sometimes as slow as Level 2 which is home charging speed) which means you'll have to spend more time sitting at that Level 3 quick charge station to get to a 90-100% "fill up". Not worth it to a lot of people road tripping.

Charging to only 80% at home effectively drops your range significantly. It's stupid and pointless.
 
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The batteries for cars are too big, too integrated into the structure and complexities of the modern car
It'll be interesting to see if Industry Standards (SAE, EU, ISO) are developed to standardize "slideinable" batteries. Unfortunately, all the "I can make an EV" startups didn't go in a common direction. I can see the big boys that participate in Standards organizations going that direction; not unlike (all but Tesla) plugs.

Perhaps in the OTR truck industry.
 
It'll be interesting to see if Industry Standards (SAE, EU, ISO) are developed to standardize "slideinable" batteries. Unfortunately, all the "I can make an EV" startups didn't go in a common direction. I can see the big boys that participate in Standards organizations going that direction; not unlike (all but Tesla) plugs.

Perhaps in the OTR truck industry.
Maybe the truck industry. Or the public transportation industry with buses, maybe smaller busses. These two markets need/demand a longer range battery but if trucks and buses are made with swappable batteries they can be kept on the road longer and won't require massive infrastructure to supply/service their needs. Buses are unique because they use the same local central depot where recharging is ideal. Buses going 100 miles a day will be easy to recharge each shift. I can only see battery swapping if the buses have longer routes, like going interstate. Trucks use specialized fueling stations designed for long haul tractor trailers so setting up a facility at each fueling station to "drop and swap" might be a workable option if the upcoming electric trucks are equipped with identical batteries with easy disconnect/reconnect plug and play wiring.

Cars? Nope. Don't see swapping batteries happening at all. Most cars service as grocery getters and commuter transportation within easy range of Level 2 charging. Long distance drives are relatively infrequent for most of the population, and with the build out of Level 3s specifically for cars, plus the opening of the widespread national and international Tesla charging stations, automotive fast charging will be easier and more available. Plus bus and tractor trailer battery swaps won't be open to all the insurance and mechanical problems an automobile swap system could possibly incur. That's a big can of worms.
 
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At the state level we have a $3k rebate for the first 25k EVs sold under $68750. They're also planning a 2.5c/km charge on EVs from 2027. Their goal is 50% EV sales by 2030.

For reference a base model Tesla 3 here is $68375. The cheapest passenger EV on our market is the MG ZS for about $45k. BYD drop in at high $40ks for more range, Leaf $53k-$64k, then everyone else (Hyundai, Kia, Polestar, etc) sits around that Telsa 3 price and up. The average car price last year was apparently $40k, and the average individual income $52k.

Our federal government has announced some tax breaks for EVs in the next financial year which will accelerate uptake, at least for leased and salary sacrificed vehicles.



That roadtax is a mess - 2.5 c / km on an ev or 2.1 c/ km on phev , designed to get back the equivalent to our fuel tax and allegedly used for road maintenance. Apparently each year the owner submits an image of the odometer AND has to keep this for 5 years. It sounds fair until you consider transport industries get their road tax back as tax credits, and local roads are actually maintained by councils so funded by a different system! I'd argue a phev only has the battery range for local trips , so when using nationally funded infrastructure on longer trips they are paying petrol tax anyway?

I'd also argue the 10% gst on the purchase cost goes a long way to that $3 k subsidy ( working on the average ev being $20 k more than an ice equivalent) .

It all adds up to a model favoring corporates. Not that I'm complaining - I work in a medical clinic , so theoretically we could purchase a fleet of ev's gst free , charge via solar and use vehicle to grid to make money overnight . Tax depreciate them over a few years whilst they clock up minimal km (eg clinic to hospital when the dr has ridden to work) . IF the fringe benefit tax exemption also happens we can provide ev's to staff as well. Ideally this would access fleet discounts , give us electricity stability during power outages and bush fire events, plus potentially encourage staff retention ( it's expensive training replacement staff with the modern tendency to job changes every few years) . Every couple of years those low km vehicles can be sold at appropriate prices to staff / their families.....lets just say I have 3 kids and they will be leaving for uni at 2 year intervals. I'll confess that under our previous govt it made more financial sense for the first to inherit an ice vehicle, and that road tax means the second will be inheriting a yaris cross rather than a phev mitsubishi. I'm NOT happy about that ! ( we came so close to buying an mg zs ev for her, but availability +/- uncertainty about the fbt killed that purchase)
 
That roadtax is a mess
Our added EV fee for Virginia car registration is/was an eye opener. Way more than the folks with ICE cars would pay in fuel taxes annually. Don't know how they came up with the amounts to add onto the annual vehicle registration (probably just tossing dollar amounts into the air and seeing which ones floated the most funds from the rich bastards that dared to drive electric). I was shocked the first time I saw the cost of my annual registration when the state enacted that flat rate road use fee. The fee was much lower the following year, probably from the legislature being chastised on the fleecing of your average EV driver that couldn't write the additional fee off as a business expense.

Then the legislation last year decided that to make it "more fair and equitable" for those driving lesser distances in their EVs and/or fuel efficient cars. They would implement a program for fees based upon mileage driven. Starting with a very low registration fee, the state would collect a monthly fee straight from the car owner's account in the program (funded by the owner's bank account) for miles driven up until those monthly costs equaled the regular EV "added fee" usually paid at registration They gave a contract to a third party to supply a transponder which would be attached to the vehicle's diagnostic port.

Sounds good, right? Less miles = less fee? Thats what was promoted in lots of "feel good" literature for this program. All well and good ... until one signed up, created the required account, funded it from one's bank account agreeing that the program will automatically do withdrawls from the bank account to pay the fees for mileage used, and agreed to have the transponder attached to the car at all times to read the car's mileage. And then, only then, did the contract's fine print make an appearance. And what a doozy that was! According to the contract for a car owner to be in this program, all sorts of information was going to be collected by the transponder - the scope of which Big Brother would have been proud. I have a Prius that gets driven only rarely (it spends more time sitting in the garage while we use the EV daily) so I thought this "pay for only the miles driven" was a good idea, and signed up. Once I was in the system was when I received that contract which detailed (for the first time) exactly what the program collected beyond just daily miles. I read it with growing alarm at the invasive data collection, and by the time I'd finished reading the contract I walked into the garage, pulled that transponder off the car, and contacted the state's motor vehicle department I was withdrawing from the program effective immediately. They took their good old time sending me the postage label for returning the transponder while they tried their best to encourage me to stay in the program. Nothing doing. I'd rather pay 3x the flat fee than have all my movements and whereabouts minute by minute GPS tracked and recorded in a third party database somewhere. It wasn't just the miles they collected. Oh, no. It was a complete GPS tracked dossier of where I went, the times involved from start to finish, exact places and locations, the speeds of my vehicle, routes taken, etc. From the second the car was on until it was turned off, and then kept recording while my car sat unused.

In short, I was hoodwinked to sign up with the promise the program would only record miles driven. That was a lie.

Several months later I'm still waiting for an updated registration bill to pay the flat fee for the Prius, but have yet to see anything. They still have my bank account for the program online, even though my initial fee was credited back to me. Not happy with that, but at least it shows as having a zero balance.

Unfortunately, I do think this type of program was designed as a testing ground for implementing it as a regular thing in the future when there are more EVs on the road. I would hope, however, they will rein in the excessive, invasive amount of data collected to just the mileage alone. Until then I'll pay that egregious flat rate fee in order to keep Big Brother out of my life regarding my driving and miles on the road.

Sorry for the rant. The sneak attack after the initial sign-up still rankles me.

On a bright note my solar is doing a terrific job supplying all the power needed for charging my EV daily, and the annual cash benefit for the next 15 years from selling my solar energy credits on the open market (Virginia is one of a handful of states that is part of the new SREC program) more than pays for the road use fee on both my EV and the hybrid.
 
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Our added EV fee for Virginia car registration is/was an eye opener. Way more than the folks with ICE cars would pay in fuel taxes annually. Don't know how they came up with the amounts to add onto the annual vehicle registration (probably just tossing dollar amounts into the air and seeing which ones floated the most funds from the rich bastards that dared to drive electric). I was shocked the first time I saw the cost of my annual registration when the state enacted that flat rate road use fee. The fee was much lower the following year, probably from the legislature being chastised on the fleecing of your average EV driver that couldn't write the additional fee off as a business expense.

Then the legislation last year decided that to make it "more fair and equitable" for those driving lesser distances in their EVs and/or fuel efficient cars. They would implement a program for fees based upon mileage driven. Starting with a very low registration fee, the state would collect a monthly fee straight from the car owner's account in the program (funded by the owner's bank account) for miles driven up until those monthly costs equaled the regular EV "added fee" usually paid at registration They gave a contract to a third party to supply a transponder which would be attached to the vehicle's diagnostic port.

Sounds good, right? Less miles = less fee? Thats what was promoted in lots of "feel good" literature for this program. All well and good ... until one signed up, created the required account, funded it from one's bank account agreeing that the program will automatically do withdrawls from the bank account to pay the fees for mileage used, and agreed to have the transponder attached to the car at all times to read the car's mileage. And then, only then, did the contract's fine print make an appearance. And what a doozy that was! According to the contract for a car owner to be in this program, all sorts of information was going to be collected by the transponder - the scope of which Big Brother would have been proud. I have a Prius that gets driven only rarely (it spends more time sitting in the garage while we use the EV daily) so I thought this "pay for only the miles driven" was a good idea, and signed up. Once I was in the system was when I received that contract which detailed (for the first time) exactly what the program collected beyond just daily miles. I read it with growing alarm at the invasive data collection, and by the time I'd finished reading the contract I walked into the garage, pulled that transponder off the car, and contacted the state's motor vehicle department I was withdrawing from the program effective immediately. They took their good old time sending me the postage label for returning the transponder while they tried their best to encourage me to stay in the program. Nothing doing. I'd rather pay 3x the flat fee than have all my movements and whereabouts minute by minute GPS tracked and recorded in a third party database somewhere. It wasn't just the miles they collected. Oh, no. It was a complete GPS tracked dossier of where I went, the times involved from start to finish, exact places and locations, the speeds of my vehicle, routes taken, etc. From the second the car was on until it was turned off, and then kept recording while my car sat unused.

In short, I was hoodwinked to sign up with the promise the program would only record miles driven. That was a lie.

Several months later I'm still waiting for an updated registration bill to pay the flat fee for the Prius, but have yet to see anything. They still have my bank account for the program online, even though my initial fee was credited back to me. Not happy with that, but at least it shows as having a zero balance.

Unfortunately, I do think this type of program was designed as a testing ground for implementing it as a regular thing in the future when there are more EVs on the road. I would hope, however, they will rein in the excessive, invasive amount of data collected to just the mileage alone. Until then I'll pay that egregious flat rate fee in order to keep Big Brother out of my life regarding my driving and miles on the road.

Sorry for the rant. The sneak attack after the initial sign-up still rankles me.

On a bright note my solar is doing a terrific job supplying all the power needed for charging my EV daily, and the annual cash benefit for the next 15 years from selling my solar energy credits on the open market (Virginia is one of a handful of states that is part of the new SREC program) more than pays for the road use fee on both my EV and the hybrid.
Glad your solar worked out, the provider in these parts seems to be a "scam" operation. When you deal with VDOT, you are always going to come out second best, our GA seems to be comprised of crafty 'old school" diehards who do not give a "Flying F" about the common Man, if a person is wealthy enough than some of the programs will actually make sense.I was unpleasantly surprised when we had to pay a "fuel efficient"( tax, surcharge, whatever) on a new Honda CRV( average mileage 31 MPG) I am of the notion to "fly this coop" there are other places I would sooner live( there is literally nothing of any importance 45 minutes( if you are lucky) in any direction( does seem weird for an Eastern state) this county is steadily turning into a "gated community" with the only emphasis on the rich person. Plenty of law around here though, 4-5 state troopers,Sheriff and 17 deputies all for a county with a population of perhaps 4500( big part are old folks) most of the "Public lands" are inaccessable with the balance of any decent land belonging to the uppercrust( do not trespass.)The plan to 'depopulate the wild areas is in full effect around here broken by the hellish clearcuts, Rich People gobble up the land the residents cannot afford and usually one of the first things that happen is any old houses are razed so there is no poor sod trying to rent them.

This country is going in the direction of nothing for the poor person, you will own nothing and be happy about it.
 
Not so for a complex number of over lapping reasons. check where the corn belt is moving…and how quickly. The latest hurricane in Florida (last week) is another example of what the warming climate is producing…historical droughts and extreme weather etc. Massive accelerating immigration…parts of the world ME…slices of India among others) too hot Now to live in. And the Russians, particularly in their West, who relished the warming are changing their tune.
Climate is no simple thing, and neither is evolution…it takes time for one to get used to another…200 years is the equivalent of jumping off a cliff
The climate is changing ?? I agree : But man are you indoctrinated . Seriously do you actually believe what you just wrote . It's the narrative I have heard the last 50 years
 
Its been said before, warmer climates are better for Humans, if its so cold we can't raise grain there will be mass starvation. I believe its time to address more urgent things, such as the elimination of nuclear weapons.
Unfortunately man has been on a course to control the world from one kingdom since it begin . I don't see nukes going away . In fact what's described in Revelation 8 and 9 . Sure sounds like the effects of nukes .
We are the Generation of vast massive knowledge. But our wisdom has vanished
 
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