Ebike Chain Lubes
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jabberwocky
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I've been doing the hot wax treatment for a while. Most of my riding is gravel, which is really dusty and chains get dirty fast if they are wet with lube. Initial treatment is a pain (the chain needs to be really, really clean) but after that its not so bad. I have a cheap crock pot in the shop specifically for treating chains. The big advantage is its a dry lube, so dust and dirt doesn't really stick to it. But because its a dry lube, the chain doesn't really have protection from corrosion and will rust after wet rides (doesn't seem to affect performance though).
Not sure it goes as long as people say; I generally have to retreat every 3-6 months depending on how much riding I'm doing and how wet things are.
Not sure it goes as long as people say; I generally have to retreat every 3-6 months depending on how much riding I'm doing and how wet things are.
Jason Knight
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That is an excellent point. So far I've used it on single speed and a 1x8.
I'm not sure why a narrower chain would last less time given it would run cooler and have less surface area to wear down. After all the point is to have the wax inside rollers, not on the outside.
And why I'm a bit confused about people talking about rust. What are you folks doing, wet riding and then letting it sit for a month without another go? Or again just using garbage chains? Or are the garbage chains I'm using magically protected compared to more expensive ones?
Though admittedly, the 8 speed chain on my e-bike came with a red teflon and powder-coat mix on it.
jabberwocky
Well-Known Member
I think the strength difference between 8/9/10/11/12 speed chains is overstated. The 12 speed chain will be narrower than a 10 speed but the strength is IMO basically the same. I've been cycling since 9 speed was the new hotness and have transitioned to 10 and then 11 speed drivetrains and have noticed zero difference in strength or chain longevity. Keeping things clean and lubricated matters way more to longevity.
Proper singlespeed chains are another matter, just because they can run stronger links with no side to side play (since they don't need to angle to accommodate shifting and multi-gear setups) and will always be a straight chainline.
That said, generally if you're breaking chains its a technique issue and not a problem with the chains. I've only broken one chain that wasn't totally my fault (a rock kicked up of the front tire smacked the chain and mangled a link, causing the chain to pop open). Otherwise they are all sloppy shifting.
Chains aren't really stainless, they usually have some sort of plating but will rust if they get wet. Most of the time theres enough oil on a chain that its naturally protected, but with a dry lube like a parafin dip you don't get that. If I ride in the rain I get some rust spots on the outside of the chain. Doesn't affect performance, chain still works fine. But if you do a dry lube its a good idea to wipe the chain with a dry towel after wet rides and not get too worried about rust spotting.
Proper singlespeed chains are another matter, just because they can run stronger links with no side to side play (since they don't need to angle to accommodate shifting and multi-gear setups) and will always be a straight chainline.
That said, generally if you're breaking chains its a technique issue and not a problem with the chains. I've only broken one chain that wasn't totally my fault (a rock kicked up of the front tire smacked the chain and mangled a link, causing the chain to pop open). Otherwise they are all sloppy shifting.
Chains aren't really stainless, they usually have some sort of plating but will rust if they get wet. Most of the time theres enough oil on a chain that its naturally protected, but with a dry lube like a parafin dip you don't get that. If I ride in the rain I get some rust spots on the outside of the chain. Doesn't affect performance, chain still works fine. But if you do a dry lube its a good idea to wipe the chain with a dry towel after wet rides and not get too worried about rust spotting.
I would guess the strength difference between different cog number chains is small and think that it is the offset from the chainring loading one side plate that kills a chain.
Just about anything can be used for lubrication, it’s nothing magic.
Instructions for my Specialized Sequoia said not to run the small chainring on the small cog or large chainring on the large cog, it being a 2 chainring bike, and the chain line being at too much of a diagonal.
Just about anything can be used for lubrication, it’s nothing magic.
Instructions for my Specialized Sequoia said not to run the small chainring on the small cog or large chainring on the large cog, it being a 2 chainring bike, and the chain line being at too much of a diagonal.
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What if someone actually did breaking strength test and the likes? One could also take a look at actual chain like say 70 grade in various sizes like 1/2,3/8,7/16 and so on and see there is a difference. The question is how much is the difference? Chain lube is not magic it's science so what you use will have a effect on speed and wear it just might not be what any particular company claims or worth the cost of that lube.
m@Robertson
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Spot on. I have one 11s chain on my Bullitt that is at roughly 2100 miles (all flat ground). My other one on my Big Fat Dummy is at 1400. Neither are showing signs of wear, although the rather brutal conditions I will be putting the BFD to now that its going to be climbing Monterey Bay hills may change that. Still, I'll be doing it with a 36T front chainring and a 42T rear so thats as kind and gentle as you can expect to get... for a 210 link chain.
If you do some reading around you find the general take on 11s chains in both the analog cycling and DIY builder community is that 11s are stronger than 9s. I originally thought this was because the narrower chains' shorter pins provided a shorter lever, but thats not the case. A couple of articles I came across not so long ago both agreed that 11s drivetrains are newer, and chain manufacturers are simply better at making chains than back in the day when 9s was The Big Thing.
Abso-damn-lutely. It takes very little effort, but you do need to expend some faithfully.
Yes. But expect people to blame the equipment anyway
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I did some looking around and the above video recommended the royal purple in second place. Someone else used it on their bike and didn't have good results.
Maybe still and way back in the day wax or paraffin based motor oil was prevalent so wax must have some lubricating properties.
Maybe still and way back in the day wax or paraffin based motor oil was prevalent so wax must have some lubricating properties.
jabberwocky
Well-Known Member
Wax has lubricating properties, but most dry lubes will mix in powdered PTFE, molybdenum disulfide and/or tungsten disulfide which are dry lubricants as well. The wax helps get them into the chain internals.
Velonews did a pretty extensive test on chain lubes and power loss/longevity a while back. PDF is archived here: https://www.ceramicspeed.com/media/3505/velonews-friction-facts-chain-lube-tests-combined.pdf FWIW, plain jane parafin wax came out on top.
No reviews of the Maxima chain wax which is a bummer because I swear by the stuff. With this you can wax your chain w/o removing it and it doesn't attract dirt. I use the motorcycle forumla but see they also have a bicycle specific product as well. https://maximausa.com/i-30498300-bike-chain-wax-4oz.html
I've got a shitload of craft beeswax. Wonder how that compares.
I've been using the dow corning molykote c40 for a while now. It doesn't attract dirt and use it on the derailleur and other moving parts. I use 3 paper towels to clean the chain and gears and reapply. I switched to motor oil a little and it attracted dirt like crazy. I like the non dirt attracting lubes the best.
I'll have to look at the wax, but I can't see some dirt not sticking to the wax.
I've been using the dow corning molykote c40 for a while now. It doesn't attract dirt and use it on the derailleur and other moving parts. I use 3 paper towels to clean the chain and gears and reapply. I switched to motor oil a little and it attracted dirt like crazy. I like the non dirt attracting lubes the best.
I'll have to look at the wax, but I can't see some dirt not sticking to the wax.
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jabberwocky
Well-Known Member
Some does for sure, but its way less than a wet lube, and generally is just on the outside so its easy to just wipe it off the chain with a dry cloth. But eventually the chain needs to be cleaned and relubed like any other, you just get a longer interval before that happens.
I still run a wet lube (Prolink Gold) on some bikes, mainly because they don't get big mileage and I haven't bothered to convert them.
One trick I learned a long time ago is when installing a new drivetrain, buy more than one chain for it and rotate them. Cleaning and lubing 2-3 chains takes only marginally more time than one and chains are (relatively) cheap. I keep two large ziplocs for each bike labelled "dirty chain xx bike" and "clean chain xx bike". When one chain gets dirty, remove and put in the dirty ziploc and install a clean one. Once all of them are dirty, clean and lube all of them. If you do this, you need to do it when the drivetrain is new (otherwise the chain will wear and stretch and a new chain may not mesh reliably with the old drivetrain).
I still run a wet lube (Prolink Gold) on some bikes, mainly because they don't get big mileage and I haven't bothered to convert them.
One trick I learned a long time ago is when installing a new drivetrain, buy more than one chain for it and rotate them. Cleaning and lubing 2-3 chains takes only marginally more time than one and chains are (relatively) cheap. I keep two large ziplocs for each bike labelled "dirty chain xx bike" and "clean chain xx bike". When one chain gets dirty, remove and put in the dirty ziploc and install a clean one. Once all of them are dirty, clean and lube all of them. If you do this, you need to do it when the drivetrain is new (otherwise the chain will wear and stretch and a new chain may not mesh reliably with the old drivetrain).
Jason Knight
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I keep spares too, but mine are in sealed glass jars with denatured alcohol, by the time I'm ready to wax a replacement for the one that's on the bike after a year or more in the alcohol a simple swish and they're almost sparkly clean.
Though since I started waxing I've not even had one swap yet... though watching some current videos I think I see some of the differences. When I started waxing on my 3 speed cruiser 6-7 years ago I tried a bunch of different waxes and universally the grey ones (aka the tungsten) were garbage, mix your own with TPFE. That people talk about that as something "difficult" or "hard to find stuff" leaves me flabbergasted.
And adding tube-lube -- even the dry wax stuff -- after the fact just washes away the wax. Like spraying WD-40 on the outside of your hubs or BB.
But the big difference is time. Seems like most people are putting an hour into waxing and a night into letting it set... When it comes to cleaning, soaking in alcohol to drive out moisture, how long to let it sit in the wax, etc where they're talking minutes, I'm taking hours. And where they're talking hours, I'm talking minutes.
Temp seems off too, I start out at 240F (high on the crock) to drive away any remaining moisture, but when I drop the chain in I set to "warm" (170F) . Drives out moisture, makes the metal expand more as it expands drawing the hot wax in, then as it cools to 170 the metal contracts a little squishing against the wax. And I then leave it for four to five hours stirring every 20-30 minutes. Kitchen timer is your friend.
Then when I hang it to drip, I make sure it's a straight line top to bottom and not "wrapped up", and cool it until I can handle it to break up the links. This too helps spread the wax around when it's soft, instead of cracking it up and driving it out / off if it were stone cold. Only once the links are moving freely do I let it sit another hour or two to cool completely before putting it on the bike.
Watching a lot of these videos and reading the websites, it feels like these people have their time distribution backwards. They really think the wax is going to penetrate between the rollers and pins in 30 minutes to an hour at the lowest temp?!? I'm really wondering if this is why I can wet-ride without any issues, whilst people are talking about "rust" I've never even seen.
Like anything else, impatience is your real enemy. As is fear and laziness. People who consider this a lot of "work" or "time" really have me going "the what now?!?" given how simple it is, and it beats the tar out of dicking around with the drivetrain every 50 miles or less.
jabberwocky
Well-Known Member
To be fair, I never considered just general cleaning the chain to be time consuming or difficult. Bike on stand, simple green in the chain cleaner (park or similar), backpedal for 30 seconds, rinse with water in chain cleaner x2, wipe it dry, let it sit and then relube. Takes a few minutes, though its best to let things sit for a few hours after cleaning to make sure its totally dry before adding lube.
My experience with wax on the MTB is less glowing. It works fine, but riding on dirt singletrack with stream crossings and such means even a waxed chain gets dirty pretty fast (within a few rides), and cleaning and rewaxing is more effort than just normal cleaning and application of wet lube.
How long it goes likely depends heavily on your usual riding conditions.
Man, I just heat it up to 175-200 or so, make sure its all liquid and dip the chain in for a few minutes with some stirring. If it works for you, great, but I can't imagine it takes hours for liquid wax to penetrate chain links.
For cleaning a waxed chain, I find boiling hot water in a park chain cleaner (I have on set aside exclusively for use on waxed chains) works a treat. Hot water will melt the old wax and rinse dirt out and the chain cleaner has rotating brushes to scrub the chain down. I heat up some water to boiling, put some in the chain cleaner, run the chain through, repeat a few times, then pop the chain off and let it dry. Once dry, into the crockpot for fresh wax then back on the bike.
Jason Knight
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The opposite of my experience. The constant cleaning and re-application is the time waster... and I don't seem to have issues with wet riding or mud sticking... BUT
Maybe it's because I worked at a rope factory that made lariat some 30 years or so ago, but I can't imagine wax penetrating much of anything in under two hours. And that's with bringing it up to a boil and applying to something relatively absorbent like hemp! There's a reason beeswax treated rope is a slow expensive manufacturing process. It doesn't magically wick into gaps displacing air via capillary action like thinner liquids. (Such as water or alcohol)
Making lariat you start out by shocking the hemp strands in boiling wax to open the pores, twist the strands together under extreme pressure, and allow to soak whilst moving it through a cooler liquid wax for a couple hours on a long serpentine path. You then drip it dry/cool and run it through another serpentine path to loosen it up and remove the exterior excess wax.
Sounds kind of familiar, doesn't it?
A few minutes? I'd be shocked if you're getting wax into the rollers and pins at all! You're basically running a dry chain at that point...
Jason Knight
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Also something I've noticed about the videos and tutorials online, is that they're able to break up their links with their bare hands or around a single dowel.
The way I do it I need a pair of pliers to have the leverage. Either I'm a total weakling, or they're not leaving the chains in long enough for total penetration to the pins.
The amount of exterior wax shown flaking off also seems to be many times more than what I get, by like a factor of ten. I mean after a wipe whilst still hot I don't even have significant external adhesion to the links except around where the pins stick out.
The way I do it I need a pair of pliers to have the leverage. Either I'm a total weakling, or they're not leaving the chains in long enough for total penetration to the pins.
The amount of exterior wax shown flaking off also seems to be many times more than what I get, by like a factor of ten. I mean after a wipe whilst still hot I don't even have significant external adhesion to the links except around where the pins stick out.
jabberwocky
Well-Known Member
Definitely not the case. Parafin wax is basically hardened petroleum. Its very liquid when melted. It doesn't need to absorb into a chain like it would into a hemp rope; chains are metal and don't actually absorb anything. It just needs to flow into the internals of the chain, and bike chains are loose, gappy things. A few minutes should be fine, I've never seen anyone recommend more than that (including lab tests that have actually tested the efficiency of wax as a lube). Take longer if you want but I sincerely doubt it makes any difference, though it likely doesn't hurt anything either.
Dirt is dirt. A dry lube chain is less sticky than one with a wet lube (so not every speck of dirt or dust won't stick to it) but if its being regularly splashed with mud and water it still gets dirty, and eventually that dirt works its way into the chain. It will go longer before you get to that point, but how much longer really depends on the environment you ride in.
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