Ebike Chain Lubes

[Jason Knight]

Definitely not the case. Parafin wax is basically hardened petroleum. Its very liquid when melted.

Didn't you people take physics in junior high? Melted, at 93C, Parrafin Wax has a viscosity of 500 cP. That's glycerin at 27C/80F! That's more than pectin at 27C/80F. Remember, water at "room temperature" (70F) is 1 cP.

Wax also doesn't like to stick to metal, it's one of the entire reasons we use it in lubricants! Its lack of surface adhesion to non-oily surfaces (part of why you need the chain cleaner than clean) and viscosity that puts 20-50 motor oil to shame -- 150-160 cP cold -- is why it does not quickly wick into unexposed surfaces. You need time, heat, and agitation... because it's too thick and too non-sticky to absorb into the cracks reaching the pins via capillary action.

Once again, basic freaking physics. Makes me wonder what crackpot "labs" you're referring to... and no wonder you guys are talking about needing to re-wax after one wet ride when I've gone 4 years on my crappy Micargi 3 speed cruiser through all kinds of weather. You're not even close to leaving it in long enough to reach the pins!

I mean an hour and a half in when I gently stir I'm still seeing air bubbles coming out of the pins. Because liquid wax's viscosity helps hold it in!

 

[DDBB]

I think WD-40 sprayed on bi-annually is all that's really needed

 

[jabberwocky]

Didn't you people take physics in junior high? Melted, at 93C, Parrafin Wax has a viscosity of 500 cP. That's glycerin at 27C/80F! That's more than pectin at 27C/80F. Remember, water at "room temperature" (70F) is 1 cP.

Wax also doesn't like to stick to metal, it's one of the entire reasons we use it in lubricants! Its lack of surface adhesion to non-oily surfaces (part of why you need the chain cleaner than clean) and viscosity that puts 20-50 motor oil to shame -- 150-160 cP cold -- is why it does not quickly wick into unexposed surfaces. You need time, heat, and agitation... because it's too thick and too non-sticky to absorb into the cracks reaching the pins via capillary action.

Once again, basic freaking physics. Makes me wonder what crackpot "labs" you're referring to... and no wonder you guys are talking about needing to re-wax after one wet ride when I've gone 4 years on my crappy Micargi 3 speed cruiser through all kinds of weather. You're not even close to leaving it in long enough to reach the pins!

I mean an hour and a half in when I gently stir I'm still seeing air bubbles coming out of the pins. Because liquid wax's viscosity helps hold it in!

In the spirit of science, I popped out to the shop and grabbed a chunk of waxed chain from a recent install (waxed a fresh chain and cut it to length after). Popped 3 links open to see if they were “bone dry”. Can confirm all three were full of wax. Plenty of wax flaking out on disassembly, every internal surface felt nice and waxy.

So, yeah. No idea what you’re doing, but I simply don’t buy your whole “it takes 4 hours or you get nothing” thing.

 

[DDBB]

I always carry a small bag of sand and throw it into the cassette of rude lycra roadies I meet on the bike paths. They usually just laugh and realize it's all in good fun

 

[Nomad]

Today I installed my 1st hot waxed drivetrain with absoluteblack took a short ride was very smooth. Very Promising initial results I'll be looking at the long term real world not in a vacuum will

Well it's been a week and while I will be doing long term testing I thought a update was order. The drive train is still running very smooth and is much cleaner then running oil. Indeed you can run your hand a crossed it and end up with almost nothing on it. At this point my oiled chain would have made some paste from running through the grass and dirt not the case with the wax. At this point all indications are the wax is working better. Let's take a moment to talk about the BS as far striping the chain,cassette,front chainring&cogs. By that I mean that people say that it hard to do. Also you might find yourself doing the same thing to oiled drivetrain at some point. I mean how hard is it to though some cleaner in a mason jar put chain in shake rinse and repeat till clean?

 

[retiredNH]

Jason, have you ever tried vacuum impregnation with your chains? That's a way to make sure the melted wax gets into the places it should, but would also work for any lubricant. Essentially, you put the cleaned chain into a vacuum chamber, pump the air out, which also takes the air out of all the confined spaces, then let the air back in. As long as the chain is immersed in lubricant, melted wax for example, when you let the air in, air pressure drives the lube into all the right spots.
Amazon shows some remarkably cheap setups. No idea how good they are. Example: https://www.amazon.com/Bestauto-Gal...mzn1.fos.18ed3cb5-28d5-4975-8bc7-93deae8f9840

 

[dodgeman]

I know when I bought my Trek they said to lube the chain every 100 mikes but it was lubed “internally” from the factory and I could wait 500 miles for the first lube on my part,

 

[Jason Knight]

Jason, have you ever tried vacuum impregnation with your chains?

An interesting idea, but would involve figuring out how to keep the wax a liquid. I think some sort of automatic mechanical agitation would be a cheaper and nearly as effective way of speeding the process. Much akin to making perfectly clear ice.

I was playing with the idea of displacement application, like is used for high temp white lithium on the bearings in jet engines. You make sure it's sopping wet can completely penetrated with water or some other penetrant with a low boiling point (alcohol perhaps) and then drop it into your medium (wax in this case) at flash-boil temperatures. The steam expanding has to escape and naturally rises, leaving a vacuum gap that has to be filled with something.

Though that could just be my inner engineer running amok. Amok amok amok.

 

[retiredNH]

An interesting idea, but would involve figuring out how to keep the wax a liquid. I think some sort of automatic mechanical agitation would be a cheaper and nearly as effective way of speeding the process. Much akin to making perfectly clear ice.

I was playing with the idea of displacement application, like is used for high temp white lithium on the bearings in jet engines. You make sure it's sopping wet can completely penetrated with water or some other penetrant with a low boiling point (alcohol perhaps) and then drop it into your medium (wax in this case) at flash-boil temperatures. The steam expanding has to escape and naturally rises, leaving a vacuum gap that has to be filled with something.

Though that could just be my inner engineer running amok. Amok amok amok.

You could keep it liquid by putting the chamber on a hot plate. No need to buy a commercial vacuum chamber either - you could make one easily out of a pressure cooker. The ones on Amazon look suspiciously like one anyway.
Vacuum impregnation was a big deal back in the old tube radio days, where home built radios often had home built coils that needed to be properly insulated all the way through. Used to use old refrigerator compressors as cheap vacuum pumps, cheap as in free. The beauty of the technique is that it "forces" stuff into the smallest crevices. No air bubble can block it.

 

[retiredNH]

I see that Mucoff are now offering a specific E bike lube. Is this just clever marketing? Will I be wasting my money or is it a great and fantastic idea that I should be looking to purchase. :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: (And use!)

Clever marketing. The most important factor is to get lube into the wear points on a chain, the pins and rollers. The nature of the lube is secondary - it matters of course, but not nearly as much as just having lubrication, even a mediocre one. Keeping a chain and drive train free of grit (abrasive material) is also important, which may be why lubes that leave an oily, grit attracting residue aren't favored, but again, no lube is worse.

 

[Nomad]

Clever marketing. The most important factor is to get lube into the wear points on a chain, the pins and rollers. The nature of the lube is secondary - it matters of course, but not nearly as much as just having lubrication, even a mediocre one. Keeping a chain and drive train free of grit (abrasive material) is also important, which may be why lubes that leave an oily, grit attracting residue aren't favored, but again, no lube is worse.

what do you mean no lube is worse are you talking about muc off or just chain lubes in general?

 

[retiredNH]

what do you mean no lube is worse are you talking about muc off or just chain lubes in general?

Even a crappy lube, one that attracts grit, for example, is better than no lube at all, at least in most cases. There's a whole field of science here called tribology, focused on the study of friction between surfaces. I'm no expert in this area, but have a rudimentary understanding of its complexity. Lubricants can be very complex, like modern car motor oils for engines - it's not by accident that car engines last far longer than they did when I was young.
One key thing to keep in mind is that any lubricant for a bike chain is a compromise, since bike chains are used in many different environments (city, rain, dusty dirt roads, high or low torque etc.) For good and bad, bike chains, as well as the other drive chain components, are relatively inexpensive, especially compared to auto motors, so there's not a lot of financial incentives to develop "ideal" lubricants. With cars (and trucks) it's different. Manufacturers have relied on the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) to develop standards for various kinds of lubricants. (e.g. SAE 10W30 oil for your car...).

 

[Nomad]

Even a crappy lube, one that attracts grit, for example, is better than no lube at all, at least in most cases. There's a whole field of science here called tribology, focused on the study of friction between surfaces. I'm no expert in this area, but have a rudimentary understanding of its complexity. Lubricants can be very complex, like modern car motor oils for engines - it's not by accident that car engines last far longer than they did when I was young.
One key thing to keep in mind is that any lubricant for a bike chain is a compromise, since bike chains are used in many different environments (city, rain, dusty dirt roads, high or low torque etc.) For good and bad, bike chains, as well as the other drive chain components, are relatively inexpensive, especially compared to auto motors, so there's not a lot of financial incentives to develop "ideal" lubricants. With cars (and trucks) it's different. Manufacturers have relied on the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) to develop standards for various kinds otf lubricants. (e.g. SAE 10W30 oil for your car...).

I would have to agree that for the most part some sort of bike chain lube is better than none but, if one were to say that no lubes work noticeably better than others that is bs.

 

[DDBB]

Some motorcyclists use no lube at all but most motorcycle chains have sealed o-rings that keep the factory grease in place. Their reasoning is that lubing a chain that already has sealed lube will only attract dirt and grime, shortening the service life of the chain. I just can't see running a totally dry motorcycle chain but to each their own. I use maxima chain wax on my motorcycle and e-bike chains and get great service life from both

 

[retiredNH]

I would have to agree that for the most part some sort of bike chain lube is better than none but, if one were to say that no lubes work noticeably better than others that is bs.

Agree! I'm just not sure which are better, by and large.

 

[Nomad]

Some motorcyclists use no lube at all but most motorcycle chains have sealed o-rings that keep the factory grease in place. Their reasoning is that lubing a chain that already has sealed lube will only attract dirt and grime, shortening the service life of the chain. I just can't see running a totally dry motorcycle chain but to each their own. I use maxima chain wax on my motorcycle and e-bike chains and get great service life from both

so they come from factory with nothing on the outside whatsoever?

 

[fooferdoggie]

I go by how long it lasts verses how much mess it makes. rock and roll will give me about 100 or so miles between uses and I don't hav to clean the drivetrain much at all. only when I change the chain. but in the rain I need to lube after every one rain commute.

 

[DDBB]

They come in a similar fashion to our ebike chains, coated in cosmoline or something similar. I'm told the ONLY reason to lube an o-ring chain is to prevent rust but I lube mine anyway. It would be GREAT if our ebike chains had o-rings to seal in the factory grease but I'm afraid that would make them too wide, or too heavy, or both

 

[Nomad]

They come in a similar fashion to our ebike chains, coated in cosmoline or something similar. I'm told the ONLY reason to lube an o-ring chain is to prevent rust but I lube mine anyway. It would be GREAT if our ebike chains had o-rings to seal in the factory grease but I'm afraid that would make them too wide, or too heavy, or bot

They come in a similar fashion to our ebike chains, coated in cosmoline or something similar. I'm told the ONLY reason to lube an o-ring chain is to prevent rust but I lube mine anyway. It would be GREAT if our ebike chains had o-rings to seal in the factory grease but I'm afraid that would make them too wide, or too heavy, or both

honestly a little lube on the outside of the roller is ideal as it contacts the sprocket directly even thou the roller spins on the pin

 

[DDBB]

Agreed