The problem with lithium is what it takes to mine it. We used to have a mine in the US, but it got shut down because of the pollution it caused. I really don't want to subject people in foreign countries to this, it may be out of sight but I don't want my hobby to hurt other people.
Don't charge your bike battery above 80% and don't ride below 20%. Maybe, maybe not.
- Thread starter EdC
- Start date
Mass Deduction
Active Member
The end result is different. It takes a Shimano charger a lot longer to charge that last 20% than it does any Bosch, Yamaha, or Brose charger that I've ever used. And it's my understanding that Shimano has indicated it's a conscious choice on their part to improve battery longevity.
FreeWheelie
Active Member
I actually want my 400 battery to wear out so i can justify upgrading to 600 
Chargers have slightly different alogrithims but all lithium cells are charged w/ the same protocol. Constant current, increasing voltage to peak voltage then decreasing current and constant voltage until fully charged so actually the end result is the same.
Last edited:
FlatSix911
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Silicon Valley
A lot of FUD posted here... for a scientific discussion of the subject take a look at the Battery University site:
FlatSix911
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Silicon Valley
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
First, pretty familiar with all the rules we play with running the different battery chemistries in radio control. (40 years in RC). With those in mind here, I'll confess right up front I'm more of the "just ride it" mindset. I do make a practice of avoiding riding to the point where the bike shuts itself off (LVC). After charging fully (to allow balance charging) I ride down to maybe 3.5v-3.6v per cell or 45-47v showing.
Using that chart, somebody taking the time and trouble to try and use a 75-25 cycle, is going to get fewer cycles than the seemingly much more brain dead method of the 100-50 cycle, no? Let the charger or BMS shut it off at full (100), then discharge to 50% (whatever that is)?
I think we all know what full/100% looks like, but what/where are the parameters used to determine the lower percentage on this chart? Without that I have no clue what 50% looks like. -Al
I do occasional charges to 100% so all cells will be balanced but otherwise just time my charges. For every 2 minutes of charging my battery goes up 1%. My standard short ride from the house is about 6 mi. and uses 10% of my battery so I typically charge to 60% and when I'm done with the ride my battery is at 50%. If I don't get to ride for another week, I'm not worried about the battery being left fully charged or close to it. It's a game I don't mind playing but I certainly understand people who just want to charge and go.
Mass Deduction
Active Member
Agreed.
Agreed. I usually charge up to about 75% (I'm shooting for 80%, but would rather fall short than go over) and then discharge somewhere to 35-50%. So this chart suggests that's pretty ideal for my usage. And this furthers my desire to have the highest capacity battery that I can get, to make it easier to stay in that range.
And whomever suggested I just get a plug in wall timer and set the timer for approximately the amount of time needed to get up to 80% was an absolute genius, and I'm going to get a few of those for the places that I regularly charge! I agree with those who say we should just use and enjoy the bikes rather than stress about them. But if I can engage in a few best practices while also keeping it easy for myself, then why not?
Last edited:
FlatSix911
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Silicon Valley
I have practiced the same 25%-75% charging routine over the last 5 years with my Tesla... with less than 4% loss of range.
jazz
Well-Known Member
Just stored my 2 electric motorcycles for the winter. Both around 60%. My newest one is a few years old and still has maximum voltage. My old one, which is a 2010 model, has less than 10% loss in almost 10 years. During riding season, I charge up to 100% if I am going to use it right away, otherwise I let it sit around 80%. I never let them get below 15%.
The 80/20 rule has been around a long time and the type and quality of batteries is also a factor, for example commodity batteries for some devices are not the same as automotive grade products. I have been it the battery charging industry many years and I find it predictable that the short-sided engineers did not provision for this. This is a standard in the EV industry. A simple solution is a signal wire to the charger and a button on the charger that restricts the SOC to 80%. For many consumers this would give a significant pack life extension and is very useful for those that commute daily and want at least 80% as a buffer or option. Even a press option on the pack power would work. Also it is easy to build logic to force a 100% charge every X cycles for balancing, with a Bosch 500 power pack at about $700 this is also a big investment so extending the pack life significantly makes sense. I plan to use a remote outlet on an automation system to mitigate this until I have time to do some more diagnostics on the electronics. Pretty sad designs but in time they will likely change them just like they did in other industries. It took years for EV auto makers to figure out they could make an EVSE with adaptable power cords that trigger the pilot signal on the charger to adapt to the outlet amperage now it's a Tesla standard. One thing to note is that in many cases charging to 100% often leads to the pack sitting there for a long time. Bosch leave their test bikes plugged in at 100% always and would tell you there is no issue but of course they have boxes of spare batteries available to swap The e-bike chargers are very primitive in this regard mostly because the manufacturers just don't care enough to spend a little more when they can make more selling you a new battery.
The e-bike chargers are very primitive in this regard mostly because the manufacturers just don't care enough to spend a little more when they can make more selling you a new battery.
reed scott
Well-Known Member
What is your opinion on the Satiator chargers?The 80/20 rule has been around a long time and the type and quality of batteries is also a factor, for example commodity batteries for some devices are not the same as automotive grade products. I have been it the battery charging industry many years and I find it predictable that the short-sided engineers did not provision for this. This is a standard in the EV industry. A simple solution is a signal wire to the charger and a button on the charger that restricts the SOC to 80%. For many consumers this would give a significant pack life extension and is very useful for those that commute daily and want at least 80% as a buffer or option. Even a press option on the pack power would work. Also it is easy to build logic to force a 100% charge every X cycles for balancing, with a Bosch 500 power pack at about $700 this is also a big investment so extending the pack life significantly makes sense. I plan to use a remote outlet on an automation system to mitigate this until I have time to do some more diagnostics on the electronics. Pretty sad designs but in time they will likely change them just like they did in other industries. It took years for EV auto makers to figure out they could make an EVSE with adaptable power cords that trigger the pilot signal on the charger to adapt to the outlet amperage now it's a Tesla standard. One thing to note is that in many cases charging to 100% often leads to the pack sitting there for a long time. Bosch leave their test bikes plugged in at 100% always and would tell you there is no issue but of course they have boxes of spare batteries available to swap
Asher
Well-Known Member
x100. It's pretty nuts that tiny Luna Cycles has a smart charger for $100 that does 80% charging, and these companies have nothing. Satiator is probably great but it's overkill. At scale, this is something that could probably be sold profitably for less than Luna, maybe $50. On my e-bike, I used an outlet timer, which a majority of people will never use, it needs to be built-in.The 80/20 rule has been around a long time and the type and quality of batteries is also a factor, for example commodity batteries for some devices are not the same as automotive grade products. I have been it the battery charging industry many years and I find it predictable that the short-sided engineers did not provision for this. This is a standard in the EV industry. A simple solution is a signal wire to the charger and a button on the charger that restricts the SOC to 80%. For many consumers this would give a significant pack life extension and is very useful for those that commute daily and want at least 80% as a buffer or option. Even a press option on the pack power would work. Also it is easy to build logic to force a 100% charge every X cycles for balancing, with a Bosch 500 power pack at about $700 this is also a big investment so extending the pack life significantly makes sense. I plan to use a remote outlet on an automation system to mitigate this until I have time to do some more diagnostics on the electronics. Pretty sad designs but in time they will likely change them just like they did in other industries. It took years for EV auto makers to figure out they could make an EVSE with adaptable power cords that trigger the pilot signal on the charger to adapt to the outlet amperage now it's a Tesla standard. One thing to note is that in many cases charging to 100% often leads to the pack sitting there for a long time. Bosch leave their test bikes plugged in at 100% always and would tell you there is no issue but of course they have boxes of spare batteries available to swap
That said, some people using name brand batteries like Yamaha/Bosch report little degradation. I can't tell if Yamaha/Bosch are doing things to enhance the battery that isn't simply a matter of depth of discharge or cell provider (Samsung, etc).
The other nice thing about the Luna Advanced charger is you can vary the amperage too. So I set it 2 or 3 amps to regularly recharge the battery to 80% and then switch to 5 amps to quickly take it up to 100% right before a ride.
I agree, I hope some of the bike manufacturers would start offering or including a better $50 charger that's similar to or the same as the Luna.
Ravi Kempaiah
Well-Known Member
- Region
- Canada
- City
- Halifax
We will work on this and it is one of our goals for this year.
Asher
Well-Known Member
Yeah I think it's a great strategic move, it markets you to customers that already have bikes for future purchases. And if it's not that hard to make, and no one but Luna is making it, then it's a great opportunity. It just seems like all the other e-bike brands are set up to sell complete bikes and nothing for people who don't buy their bikes. There isn't a very good pipeline of third party support for electric bits, while analog parts are the opposite with relatively universal modular parts available.
Luna doesn't strike me as very customer friendly, so even competing at the same price but offering more options/intuitive experience would help. But $50 is a no-brainer for even moderate battery lifespan gains.
Yeah especially for a commuter bike where 60% battery range is enough for an entire day 90%+ of the time.
Similar threads
