https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/12/21256722/gm-ariv-shuts-down-ebike-production-covid
GM has killed its first electric bike.
GM has killed its first electric bike.
DOA , GM kills its electric bike project, Ariv
- Thread starter e-boy
- Start date
D
Deleted member 4210
Guest
GM has killed off more electric vehicle projects, than they have killed off car lines. 
how is it this company is still around ? Didn't they go belly up once or twice ?
They should just name their next EV 'vaporware' and spare us all the suspense of wondering when it will die.
how is it this company is still around ? Didn't they go belly up once or twice ?They should just name their next EV 'vaporware' and spare us all the suspense of wondering when it will die.
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Glad to see them bury that project. That will allow them to come up with a new one - with that (bad) experience in mind.
I beleive somebody this size is capable of bringing a real game changer to market - at a marketable price.
I beleive somebody this size is capable of bringing a real game changer to market - at a marketable price.
GM's Ariv ebike models were defensively designed to not get people out of cars...of coarse they were going to be failures.
A game changer transportation ebike is not going to come from anyone in the automotive industry because they will never want to cannibalize sales from cars. One of the issues with US companies is that virtually all management is brain dead scared people that can't think outside the box at all. I'm guessing not a single manager at GM involved with this product ever rode an ebike in a diverse urban environment for 20 miles to get an idea what is needed to be a good mobility solution. Riding to a neighbors house doesn't give you an idea of what a good ebike is or needs to be.
A game changer transportation ebike is not going to come from anyone in the automotive industry because they will never want to cannibalize sales from cars. One of the issues with US companies is that virtually all management is brain dead scared people that can't think outside the box at all. I'm guessing not a single manager at GM involved with this product ever rode an ebike in a diverse urban environment for 20 miles to get an idea what is needed to be a good mobility solution. Riding to a neighbors house doesn't give you an idea of what a good ebike is or needs to be.
rich c
Well-Known Member
Could you have stacked any more fictional stereotypical corporate descriptions in that paragraph?
Why is that fictional? Do you really think GM wasn't practicing "defensive development" of their ebikes. They appeared to be decent "last mile" solutions but they clearly were not intended to replace a car or even get people out of cars for some real world commuting needs.
Here's my take on "last mile" mobility solutions: Buy something like a light weigh folding Brompton without a motor because it will be much more portable and if you can't ride a non-motorized bike a mile or so in an urban setting you really need to assess you physical condition. A good transportation grade ebike can still serve as a last mile solution (albeit a bit less portable) but the ability to be a good transportation solution adds significant value. We need good effective human scale transportation and ebikes are the right products for that but most of the industry is still stuck in the 50 year old weight paradigm and not really making effective transportation-grade ebikes.
Last edited:
... and 4-5 times the wages. At least, at the remaining US factories. Work conditions are generally better than in China, too.
I don't think GM was making their ebikes. My guess is they were being manufactured in China via a contract manufacturing agreement with a large contract bike manufacturer.
Jeep isn't going to do that well in ebikes either because they are just rebranding a "cookie cutter" fat tire model that about a dozen other mom'n'pop brands are importing. I guess I just don't understand US management decisions any longer. I'm sorry but I question that "dumbing down" is just moving up the corporate ladder as it has spread wider thru the US population.
I understand that US union wages are probably 4-5 times what wages are in China or even more but executive managers are probably making 50x what China executive managers make on average. What is funny is that US managers will claim their salaries being many multiple higher is not as big of problem as the rank and file salaries being higher because there are so many more rank and file workers. The problem with that soundbite excuse is that it fails any logic test.
You really can't serious commute on a "last mile" ebike and in reality no one really needs electric assist to go that last mile unless we have become so obese and lazy that even 10 minutes of pedaling is too much for us.
I bought an ebike just to see if I would find it to be a good way to commute to work (18 miles each way). It took a couple weeks to understand what I needed to use it as a reliable transportation tool (had a flat the 1st day and walked the bike probaby 3 miles in 95 degree heat so I learned fast you have to have puncture resistant tires and puncture sealant as a minimum standard) and after a month I started feeling better and stronger and just found that I was far happier getting on the bike than in my car. It was a hassle at first but it became something I actually enjoy. The problem is that I found a 20mph assist limit to be horribly limiting (time is money when you commute) so the regulations are simply wrong if we want more people to get out of cars and use ebikes for transportation (sure 20mph is fine for going around your neighborhood when you are retired but I think a 28mph Class 3 ebike is the minimum needed for commuting (the problem with most Class 3 ebikes is that they are underpowered so you really have to work very hard to maintain 28mph even on flats....I want to sustain above 20mph even up say a 6 percent slope.
I have worked for some big corporations and "defensive development" is not uncommon. I was at HP when they released the first real "business class" inkjet printer - the HP 3000. It was cancelled not too long later because they realized it was taking sales from the more profitable laser printers. Not until recently did HP release another inkjet product with business-class capability and performance (sadly though the Pro X and Pagewide models have been troubled by a reliability issue (most likely air in the printheads) that keeps them in field for many years like businesses have come to expect from business laser printers).
I have no clue why GM release "last mile" toy (not transportation) ebikes other than some really poor business managers wanted nothing to do with a car replacement ebike. That short sighted thinking is sadly ingrained within many US corporations.
Juiced / Tora are dead on that Class 3 ebikes can encourage some people out of their cars for some transportation needs.
I have no clue why GM release "last mile" toy (not transportation) ebikes other than some really poor business managers wanted nothing to do with a car replacement ebike. That short sighted thinking is sadly ingrained within many US corporations.
Juiced / Tora are dead on that Class 3 ebikes can encourage some people out of their cars for some transportation needs.
pxpaulx
Well-Known Member
Extremely disappointing, but not surprising given our current situation! It is easy for a big automaker to have a pet project that makes them look like they care about the environment, but when the bottom line starts to matter, and people might really consider transportation alternatives, they shut the project down to avoid losing potential sales, rather than adapting to potentially significant cultural changes and looking to the future of their business.
The auto makers know that the writing in on the wall. The vast majority of us in the US will still need to own a car but something like 75% of trips from the home are less than 10 miles with one person in the car. That makes NO sense and a human scale transportation solution like a great ebike is the ideal solution for the vast majority of those trips. Electric cars are nice but they are still over 50 times as heavy as an ebike which still makes no sense if I'm just going 2 miles to pick up a bag of groceries.
I found the cultural change very compelling after I just forced myself to adapt an ebike into my life. People just need to decide they want to do this. The simple fact that our country is so obese (no one likes being told they are fat and lazy but that is getting close to 50% of our population) the benefits of more people riding ebikes will/world have a profound impact on our society. The oil & gas and auto industry is not going to lead on this and sadly most of the ebike manufacturers are still stuck the 50 year old "weight is all that matters bike paradigm."
A great transportation-grade ebike still does not exist on the market. Some are good (Vintage, Juiced, Watt Wagon, FLX, etc.) but all still have too much cling to the past. There should not be chain, thin tires, knobby tires, etc. on a transportation-grade ebike. It's not important to hide the battery to look like a traditional bike but look how many people on EBR will say how that was oh so important to them when buying an ebike. They were not even looking for a commuting solution as something that reminded them of their old bike.
I found the cultural change very compelling after I just forced myself to adapt an ebike into my life. People just need to decide they want to do this. The simple fact that our country is so obese (no one likes being told they are fat and lazy but that is getting close to 50% of our population) the benefits of more people riding ebikes will/world have a profound impact on our society. The oil & gas and auto industry is not going to lead on this and sadly most of the ebike manufacturers are still stuck the 50 year old "weight is all that matters bike paradigm."
A great transportation-grade ebike still does not exist on the market. Some are good (Vintage, Juiced, Watt Wagon, FLX, etc.) but all still have too much cling to the past. There should not be chain, thin tires, knobby tires, etc. on a transportation-grade ebike. It's not important to hide the battery to look like a traditional bike but look how many people on EBR will say how that was oh so important to them when buying an ebike. They were not even looking for a commuting solution as something that reminded them of their old bike.
I'm kind of using the term "transportation-grade" to imply there will be more robustness to the bike. For example, die cast magnesium wheels never need truing, a Gates or alternative brand carbon belt can last 4-10 times as long as a chain and doesn't require lubrication that can transfer to clothing, tires should be at least 2" wide and be at least 10mm thick so they don't puncture every time a thorn is run over (this is a problem in a lot of dry western states), enough power such that any reasonable rider can sustain 32kph/20mph even on a 6 percent grade (I still believe a good ebike should be able to achieve 50-55kph/30-35mph assist speeds on flats but I know plenty of people will claim that is moped / motorcycle speeds which is just nonesense given that most road bikes will cadence to those speeds and a human was able to sustain over 33mph on a track for an hour).
Note: I understand that the faster speeds are more dangerous but being able to do those speeds doesn't mean everyone will be flying down sidewalks at those speeds running over people walking (far too many on this forum feel that it's just too dangerous for an ebike to even assist to Class 3 speeds of 28mph).
I will keep repeating this: We need human scale transportation that his compelling to get people out of cars and I'm sorry the 32kph/20mph ebikes that may be OK solutions in densely populated cities in Europe and Asia will only satisfy a minority of potential commuters in the US that do get scared going over 20mph. I just don't want them to set the design limits of ebike tech. Can you image a Bugatti limited to 55mph driving speeds....no I didn't think so.
Note: I understand that the faster speeds are more dangerous but being able to do those speeds doesn't mean everyone will be flying down sidewalks at those speeds running over people walking (far too many on this forum feel that it's just too dangerous for an ebike to even assist to Class 3 speeds of 28mph).
I will keep repeating this: We need human scale transportation that his compelling to get people out of cars and I'm sorry the 32kph/20mph ebikes that may be OK solutions in densely populated cities in Europe and Asia will only satisfy a minority of potential commuters in the US that do get scared going over 20mph. I just don't want them to set the design limits of ebike tech. Can you image a Bugatti limited to 55mph driving speeds....no I didn't think so.
Yea...I think anything less than a class 3 assist speed ebike as a deal breaker for getting a lot more people out of cars. I know there is going to be a bunch of riders write in now (as they always do) saying they are completely satisfied with their Class 1/2 speed ebikes. That's wonderful...continue to ride them a block or two to visit you neighbors but I don't want to be limited to cruising at 17-19mph (to avoid that hitting the assist limit cut-off) on some of my long commutes. Time is money and guess what an extra 10-15mph will pay for the bike in travel times over a year if any one cares to do the math if you ride a bike 5,000-10,000 miles a year. We need human scale transportation, not toys to cruise the neighborhoods.
I think motorcycle chains tend to have sealed bushings and are way over-designed but most high end street motorcycles have shaft drives I believe. Most of the high end street motorcycles also have die cast aluminum or magnesium wheels as well. I know some mopeds may opt for DOT rims and spokes but sometimes I think they do that for a certain cosmetic or they want service $s down the road. Obviously most bikes still have rims and spokes because they can be be very light. I'd just rather have 2000 grams wheels and 2000gram tires that never to out of true and rarely if ever have a flat.
If I have a Bafang M620 ebike with 160nm of torque I don't need to count grams like the Spandexters. I'll be too busy flying by them on my way to work.
FlatSix911
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Silicon Valley
The history of Auto companies developing electric bikes has been littered with failures... GM is just the latest example.
electrek.co
Say goodbye, GM kills off its short-lived electric bicycle
GM has officially announced that it is ending its ARIV electric bicycle program, blaming the decision largely on the havoc...
electrek.co
Nova Haibike
Well-Known Member
If an e-bike was built like that, it would be very heavy. Cast wheels and 10mm thick tires?! You would need a huge motor to get the thing moving, and an equally huge battery because all the added weight would suck up a lot of juice. Honestly, you are describing an e-motorcycle or e-scooter, not an e-bike.
Similar threads
