DOA , GM kills its electric bike project, Ariv

[Ken M]

If an e-bike was built like that, it would be very heavy. Cast wheels and 10mm thick tires?! You would need a huge motor to get the thing moving, and an equally huge battery because all the added weight would suck up a lot of juice. Honestly, you are describing an e-motorcycle or e-scooter, not an e-bike.

The bike industry has been so focused on the weight paradigm for 50 years they have no clue that weight isn't that critical on an ebike. Many are already coming in around 30kg and the ebike I'm describing would still be less than 40kg. When you consider that most riders are 60 to 100kg that is not some draconian weight unless you are an old school spandexter counting grams for racing.

Mopeds typically start around 100kg and motorcycles are typically 150kg minimum. I think we should let everyone know the numbers so they can judge if this extra 10kg on an urban mobility ebike would make sense if they never had to true a wheel or replace a spoke, fix a flat, replaced tires only once every 20,000 km, didn't have a greasy chain hitting the pants leg and coming off every now and then, etc.

The bike industry thinks like they have for over 5 decades. ebikes are the most efficient form of human transportation ever created but the industry isn't really thinking of maximizing urban mobility value. Most ebikes are designed by cyclists for cyclists and their spandex has limited blood supply to the brain. Sorry but that was meant to be funny.

 

[FlatSix911]

The bike industry has been so focused on the weight paradigm for 50 years they have no clue that weight isn't that critical on an ebike. Many are already coming in around 30kg and the ebike I'm describing would still be less than 40kg. When you consider that most riders are 60 to 100kg that is not some draconian weight unless you are an old school spandexter counting grams for racing.

Mopeds typically start around 100kg and motorcycles are typically 150kg minimum. I think we should let everyone know the numbers so they can judge if this extra 10kg on an urban mobility ebike would make sense if they never had to true a wheel or replace a spoke, fix a flat, replaced tires only once every 20,000 km, didn't have a greasy chain hitting the pants leg and coming off every now and then, etc.

The bike industry thinks like they have for over 5 decades. ebikes are the most efficient form of human transportation ever created but the industry isn't really thinking of maximizing urban mobility value. Most ebikes are designed by cyclists for cyclists and their spandex has limited blood supply to the brain. Sorry but that was meant to be funny.

You make some good points regarding the weight of an E-bike. I was a roadie for many years and understand the weight-weenie obsessed culture well.

One key factor to consider is that many people need to carry their E-bike indoors or up a flight of stairs... lighter is better in this regard and technology will help.

Not everyone, especially seniors can handle lifting a 30 - 40 Kg bike... not to mention the mopeds or motorcycles you mentioned in the 100 - 150 Kg range.

 

[Nova Haibike]

The bike industry has been so focused on the weight paradigm for 50 years they have no clue that weight isn't that critical on an ebike.

TO YOU it is not critical. Me, I do not want to lift let alone ride a 90 lb. "bike."

When you consider that most riders are 60 to 100kg that is not some draconian weight unless you are an old school spandexter counting grams for racing.

I do not count grams, but I do count pounds. You seriously think most people would want a bicycle that weighs as much as they do? What is the point of making it an e-bike if you're going to virtually exclusively depend on the motor to move the darn thing?

How would a 90 lb. "transportation-grade" e-bike be better than an e-scooter or e-motorcycle? Is it because it would have pedals that one can turn and pretend like they are riding a bicycle?

 

[Ken M]

TO YOU it is not critical. Me, I do not want to lift let alone ride a 90 lb. "bike."



I do not count grams, but I do count pounds. You seriously think most people would want a bicycle that weighs as much as they do? What is the point of making it an e-bike if you're going to virtually exclusively depend on the motor to move the darn thing?

How would a 90 lb. "transportation-grade" e-bike be better than an e-scooter or e-motorcycle? Is it because it would have pedals that one can turn and pretend like they are riding a bicycle?

I view the rider and the motor as two entirely different sources of energy / power. A human on a bike is actually very efficient and capable of short bursts of energy from a standing start (this is actually where electric motors are at the very worst). I need to check my math again but an 80kg rider standing on the pedals from stop creates something like 150nm of torque at the bottom bracket. Only the Bafang G620 Ultra mid is creating that much bottom bracket torque to my knowledge (actually there are some other off-road focused solutions doing that but not going to see them in any urban mobility ebikes I don't think). So it's not asking much for a rider to propel a 40kg bike to say 20kph (should only take a few seconds) and then the motor can be engaged because it's noq in an efficient speed range (in fact this is why I still think DD hub motors could be a great urban ebike solution still). Even if you want to consider what I've described as a moped with pedals it makes sense when you think of the two energy sources. A 1kwh battery on an ebike like this ridden correctly will likely provide upwards of 50km range while cruising along at 45kph - that's something I feel is transportation-grade (not some 250w EU spec motor maybe capable effective assist to 32kph - that is mamby pampy slow).

I think a lot of riders really would benefit from focusing their energy to get the bike up to a certain speed. One of the reasons I tend to think an urban mobility ebike should be throttle-only so a smart rider can make very efficient use of their energy and the motor's.

I actually think the bike I'm describing could be produced at a weight around 30kg and with the battery out maybe under 25kg. I understand this may still be a bit to carry up the stairs but it's supposed to be a transportation solution not a last mile thing you can carry to your 23rd story apartment using the stair case.

 

[Ken M]

I want to make one other statement. A 30-40kg ebike will be more stable and more safe at the higher speeds desired by most urban commuters. While none of us really want to carry a bike this heavy none of us should really think it's a negative for riding performance. I'm not talking about having this weight on 32mm wide cyclist tires....the tires should be more like the Moto Xs and min 55mm wide.

 

[Ken M]

Why is that so many seem to think an ebike that assists past 32kph should be considered a moped or motorcycle. It's like 50% of people on EBR work for DMV or the insurance industry where they get money in their pockets by limiting ebikes to low power and low speeds equivalent to the EU regulations.

These same people are also claiming that at some weight an ebike is no longer an ebike because they can't carry up a flight of stairs, but what is that weight limit - 10, 20, 30, 40kgs?

A Honda Super Cub without the ability to be pedaled effective by the rider is not an ebike but I really don't consider functional pedals the only reason because the Footloose ebike does not have functional pedals and it's sold legally as an ebike in EU, Canada, and the US (this established legal precedent that functional pedals have not been enforced as a requirement for an ebike to be legally on the same paths/sidewalks/trails as a traditional bike.

 

[Ken M]

True, the most "transportation-grade" bike in the world is Honda Super Cub.
According to Wikipedia, it weighs 121 lb (or heavier depending on which on you get).

121 lb is like a person.

That said, people have been using Honda Super Cub as a base for their ebike project.
Take off all the fairings, fender, etc.. and here it is.

But you're right... at this point, what's the difference between "Transportation-Grade" ebike and e-motorcycle?

One of my dislikes (it's subjective obviously) of the very popular retro mini ebikes is that they have horrible pedal geometry - no one can really pedal effective when their knees are significantly bent. I like the idea of something that handles and has the utility of the mini ebikes but is designed to have very effective pedal geometry. Optimize both the human and motor elements...this seems to be a product no available.

As similar topic was discussed here,

E-scooter rider BUSTED for operating without licence & insurance

It's about time. I hate that these elerctric motorcycles are classified like an E-Bike. Here's a few blurbs from the News Report... Ali Moussa Ghadban argued in court that his Motorino XMr is a motor-assisted cycle — outfitted with pedals, limited power and a maximum speed of 32 km/h — and...

electricbikereview.com

I think it's all about the looks.
No, functional pedals do not give motorcycles a bicycle status. (legally, yes, but that's a different debate)

So they limit by weight, maybe so that those motorcycles can't claim bicycle status.

But what if technology invents ultra light material, that would make this motorcycle extremely light?
Is this a bicycle now because it's super light?

And what if in the future, they invented a super high energy density battery, that can be integrated in the battery, with extremely small and powerful motor?
Let's suppose only downside is that they are extremely heavy, so does this bicycle become a motorcycle because it's made out of extremely heavy battery and motor?

My point is, it's not about the weight.
It's all about the looks. Just because you put a pedal on motorcycle, doesn't make it bicycle. Just because you meet the weight requirement, it doesn't make motorcycles a bicycle.

So yea, it's all about the looks.

If your bike looks more like a bicycle than a motorcycle, then it's an e-bike.
If your bike looks more like a motorcycle than a bicycle, then it's an e-motorcycle.

Wow...it's all about the looks. I can not think of a more subjective way to define what is a bike or motorcycle. I'm sure everyone working for DMV and Insurance companies would tell you that anything with two wheels is a motorcycle so they can get their pay and pensions.

I'm again going to say what is important: We need an effective human scale transpiration solution more than we need to limit ebikes to something like the EU has done. There was a survey on EBR recently that said that 75% of us ebike riders are comfortable cruising at speeds over 32kph/20mph so doesn't that kind of indicated that most of us don't consider that limit to be an effective solution for commuting. Riding to your neighbors house a block away sure, but not to complete a 20 mile ride to work.

What would be wrong with an ebike with a Bafang M620 motor with a 1kwh battery being a legal ebike? That does not need to be controlled by the over-zealous people at DMV of the overpaid people at insurance companies (they should get work that adds value to our society instead of putting those requirements on something that is such and efficient means to get around).

 

[Ken M]

But what else could it be?
Humans are subjective.

Why ebikes that look like motorcycles, or even something that resembles 50cc scooter would be pulled over by the police (even though they were limited to 20 mph), when faster ebikes like Stromer or Juiced CrossCurrent X are never getting pulled over?

I've seen enough news articles, when ebikes get pulled over, so far, it is always ebikes that resembles 50cc scooter, dirtbike or motorcycles.

I have never seen Stromers and Juiced getting pulled over.

This is so freaking easy if we get everyone to think "technically." It is very very easy to simulate exactly what power is needed to sustain say 50kph (this is a bike speed probably 95% of us have done on a bike going downhill without assist so I don't need to hear the mamby pambies telling me this is just too fast - I know I was hitting that speed on my road bike at like 14 years of age) with say a total weight of say 120kg (that is rider + bike weight which is not that much but some of you will say I'm only 140lbs so that's too much) in an upright riding position. That kind of data can be used to OBJECTIVELY establish the regulation for an ebike that would be effective transporation while still limiting it's top assist speed to say 50kph (speed limits on pedestrian sidewalks can be set at say 25kph and rider of a bike like this must obey those limits just like someone that own a Bugatti can't drive around over 300mph whenever they want).

The big problem is that our country is getting to the point where so few understand science so too many want regulations based on their goofy subjective opinions (I have goofy subjective opinions too but I don't want them used to establish laws - I'd tell all smokers to leave the country because their breath stinks and that makes no sense technically). I hope I'm making sense.

 

[Ken M]

I would consider 50kph assist speeds "objective" because we've all done that speed on a none assist ebike and a human was able to maintain that speed on an non-assist road bike for an hour on a track. If 95% have ridden that fast (we don't need the 5% that are scared of that speed telling everyone it's too fast) then is seem objective to set the assist speed at 50-55kph (most road bike's gearing provides reasonable cadence to those speeds by design). I can just keep throwing out facts to support assist speeds that high but those saying that makes an ebike a motorcycle are just tossing out their "subjective" view. Need a bit more from that side of the debate or I should just drop the mic and help them understand they lost.

 

[Ken M]

I believe this ebike will assist well past 50kph and I would not classify it as a motorcycle. Notice the absense of spoke but those are very expensive carbon wheels (not the much less expensive cast magnesium.