??? Class 2 Regulations on Throttle Usage ????

[Ken M]

As population density continues to increase, more and more cities are looking for alternatives to automobiles. Ebikes are relatively new and laws are just starting to come in line with the ebike population. Washington state just passed Senate Bill 6434 which became effective 6/7/2018 and similar bills are in the works for other states with expectations of becoming law within the next 12 months. Laws are ambiguous and viewed by interpretation. I think that no matter where you are or how you interpret the rules for your area, inevitably someone else, like a police officer, may see it differently. Trying to split hairs over laws is a waste of energy. It is your responsibility to ensure that whatever bike you buy, make or modify, meets the rules and guidelines of your local jurisdiction. I believe that most riders are responsible and do their best to follow the rules. Bike malfunctions happen but In the end, its up to you to make sure that your bike is safe, in working order and complies. If you do not, than you have to deal with the consequences.

That's really the main issue I have with the current regulations - they are limiting the potential adoption rate of eBikes as viable transportation. Limiting the assist speed to 20mph or even 28mph has the net result of increasing commute times and when riding on roads increases the risk of the rider because the differential of speed with cars is higher than it needs to be. I'm not advocating crazy fast assist speeds but if the rider can cadence at 35mph why not allow some assist at that speed to it can be maintained even on a reasonable grade.

Allow the technology to reach it's potential. That is what regulators should be focused on. Not thinking that 20mph is "fast enough" and we need to keep riders safe (riders are best suited for keeping themselves safe).

 

[ymarty]

Ken, totally agree with you but these laws are in their infancy. Have to learn to crawl before we can walk and walk before we run. Many states are just getting around to increasing speed limits on highways. Be patient...I am sure we will see increased speeds as lawmakers and advocacy groups become comfortable with ebikes.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

Just a quick following on this tread. I'm asking if it's illegal to continue to ride an eBike that has a throttle if the chain breaks or something else renders the human powered mechanical drive system non-functional.

I'm NOT asking if some bikes have a walk mode, if some bikes assist to higher speeds than 20mph using the throttle (of coarse some owners unlock the assist speed limits .... I have), etc.

I want to know if there is a legit regulation would result in a ticket for continue to ride under throttle power alone under 20mph. I think everyone is reading between the lines as to what I'm asking but the question is very simple.

The part of the question you have left out is, where?

State law governs this kind of question, and different states have different criteria. What is legal in Washington may not be legal in Maine. You really do have to be that specific.

Once you've decided where, you can look at that state's regulations. If you can find them.

My home state, North Carolina, did a major revision to bicycle laws a year or two ago. Previously, you might have thought that ebikes were regulated the same as mopeds, and in the absence of case law making it clear, that may have been true. Then they passed a new law defining ebikes, which is great because it includes my CrossCurrent S speed pedelec. But it's not easy to find the legislation; very few references on Google, and lots of references to the old (now incorrect) information.

Having found that information, you might still not know the answer, because laws can be vague, intentionally or not. Many laws are written with the expectation that a regulatory agency will get down to the details. And after that, case law -- how some judge interprets the law -- becomes part of the governing authority. If there were any news stories written ("Ebike rider with broken chain found not guilty") then it's easier to find. Otherwise, you may or may not have an easy time of finding case law with a Google search. There are search engines like Lexis or Westlaw that are specific to legal stuff, but they aren't cheap.

Seems like a simple question. You might even find an answer.

Here's what it comes down to for me. I'm riding an ebike that's legal in NC. If I break the chain, I no longer have "fully operable pedals" or whatever the exact terminology might be, but I'm still going to use the throttle to get home. If, on the 1000:1 chance that some officer tickets me (I mean, I don't even see a cop every time I ride, much less have them look to if I'm using the throttle while still having fully operable pedals, or using the throttle with inoperable pedals), then OK. Plan B at that point would be to hire one of those ambulance-chasing lawyers who does traffic violations all the time, because until a judge says I'm guilty, I'm not. Just like in baseball: "It ain't a strike until I call it a strike."

Which leaves me with a question, and this is a question, not a snarky comment masquerading as a question: Is there a practical reason for your curiosity?

 

[Trail Cruiser]

I started the thread with reference to class 2 pedelecs. You reference to a class 1 pedelec was off topic so I just pointed that out.

You are wrong in calling it class 1 and that is where I feel insulted since you are accusing me of not reading or understanding the law.
http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2017-18/Pdf/Bill Reports/Senate/6434-S.E SBR FBR 18.pdf

If there is a throttle, it it is not class 1, it is class 2 or higher. So who is off topic? Be careful with your words, you are attacking people left and right.

Mr Ken M, please cite your source of information so we have something credible and valid to talk about. Otherwise we are talking non-sense here and just wasting our time.

 

[Ken M]

You are wrong in calling it class 1 and that is where I feel insulted since you are accusing me of not reading or understanding the law.
http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2017-18/Pdf/Bill Reports/Senate/6434-S.E SBR FBR 18.pdf

If there is a throttle, it it is not class 1, it is class 2 or higher. So who is off topic? Be careful with your words, you are attacking people left and right.

Mr Ken M, please cite your source of information so we have something credible and valid to talk about. Otherwise we are talking non-sense here and just wasting our time.

Mark,
Seriously, go back and read my initial entry on this thread (I started the thread). The question I asked was specific to Class 2 ebikes - I addressed something on Class 1 ebikes because the string went off topic and I was trying to bring it back on topic. I'm not trying to attack anyone as I was hoping there was someone that had an solid legal understanding of what a Class 2 ebike is.

If there is a class 2 ebike, like the Mondo Footloose, being sold in the US that does not have functional pedals that seems like legal precedence to me that functional pedals are not required (in other words if I break a chain on my class 2 ebike I can continue to ride it without fear of being issued a ticket for riding an non-compliant ebike). If I put a motor and a throttle on a Street Strider (currently classified as a federally compliant bike) is it a class 2 pedalec? I believe it would be but it does not have traditional pedals as it's ridden like an elliptical trainer. There are many models of small folding "last mile" ebikes being sold that have no pedals what so ever - they are like mini low powered scooters but ALL of these are being sold as class 2 ebikes or just ebikes in the states that don't have the class system.

I think what happens is that people take being questioned personally, while I'm still in search for an answer to my original question. I'm sorry but if you don't like being questioned it's probably best not to engage on a topic like this because it's proven to have a lot of gray area and opinions.

 

[Ken M]

Ken, totally agree with you but these laws are in their infancy. Have to learn to crawl before we can walk and walk before we run. Many states are just getting around to increasing speed limits on highways. Be patient...I am sure we will see increased speeds as lawmakers and advocacy groups become comfortable with ebikes.

I agree but it may take a decade for the law makers to become "comfortable" with ebikes (most are not exactly target customers for ebike companies). I had a discussion with one of the four law makers that drafted and pushed the class system thru in Colorado (mainly to get Haibike to move their US headquarters to Denver) in two months. He had no clue about the technical loopholes that exist and agreed with me that they probably needed some technical people on the team and maybe more time to push a better bill.

Sadly People for Bikes is telling all states that the Class system is "model legislation" that should be adopted by all states. Bike lovers seems to be shooting themselves in the foot with this legislation that put far too much emphasis on controlling the assist speed.

 

[Ann M.]

Actually, @Ken M, you are mistaken about the Mando Footloose. It has pedals and according to the owner's manual can be propelled just using those pedals, although at a lower speed than the 15mph top speed, 250 watt motor can with throttle. There are other bicycles and possibly a few ebikes that use a non-chain shaft drive that with throttle only, 20mph top speed would be considered Class 2.

In the state of Texas the Transportation Code clearly states that electric bikes & e-scooters (no pedals required) that are 750 watts or less with a top speed of 20mph are considered the same as a bike, no licensing or insurance required.

It appears that you may have tapped on a grey area of some state codes; however, most city officials & police dept officials our shop has spoken with over the years aren't going to ticket someone over a broken chain and using a throttle. The police are more bothered by guys riding the gas powered bikes with illegal motors bigger than 49cc going 40mph+ without pedaling even with a chain present. If someone has amped up a bike and is foolish enough to speed in front of a cop with a speed radar, well then they may get a ticket.

There are many questions and legal clarifications that may have to be worked out with states or courts; however, I think you're creating an issue where there is no real issue. I reiterate, the Footloose has a 250watt motor & top speed of 15mph; no faster than a typical kid's Razor ride-on toy and those have no pedals and nobody is giving the kids tickets.

 

[Ken M]

I went back over and over to your previous posts and you are the one being evasive with your questions. People here are respectfully trying to respond to your questions and then you deviate your topic and insult the people, telling them they don't understand your point.

You don't even know what class 2 is, where these ebikes are already officially classified by manufacturers as class 2, yet you you call it class 1 (what a shame!).

You don't even bother to look at previous posts already talking about this issue.
https://electricbikereview.com/foru...ic-bike-classes-and-why-do-they-matter.22738/

I know I know, you will continue to insult people here and continue to deviate your topic and tell them they don't get what you're talking about.

This is my last post here.

I honestly have no idea how I insulted you or anyone else. My original question was regarding a class 2 ebike (under 750W, limited 20 mph, PAS + throttle) if the pedals were or became non-functional for some reason. It is my opinion they remain legal so long as the the assist is limited to 20mph. I have been informed by multiple people (I think you are in this camp) that it's not legal to ride a class 2 ebike if the pedals are not functional.

Anne in the following post provides some good insight in that Texas does not require the pedals to be functional, just the assist speed is relevant which is what makes the most sense to me.

I just have an opinion as you do, I don't find your opinion insulting but I have no control if you find mine insulting.

ALMOST every ebike rider I know believes the regulations need a modern update to remove some of the grey areas left to interpretation. I think most of us also agree that the regulations are and will be a factor in how ebikes are embraced as a viable form of human scale transportation. There are obvious business interests at play that do not want that to happen so anyone that rides an ebike should be in favor of supporting regulations that promote the widespread use of ebikes.

 

[Ken M]

Actually, @Ken M, you are mistaken about the Mando Footloose. It has pedals and according to the owner's manual can be propelled just using those pedals, although at a lower speed than the 15mph top speed, 250 watt motor can with throttle. There are other bicycles and possibly a few ebikes that use a non-chain shaft drive that with throttle only, 20mph top speed would be considered Class 2.

In the state of Texas the Transportation Code clearly states that electric bikes & e-scooters (no pedals required) that are 750 watts or less with a top speed of 20mph are considered the same as a bike, no licensing or insurance required.

It appears that you may have tapped on a grey area of some state codes; however, most city officials & police dept officials our shop has spoken with over the years aren't going to ticket someone over a broken chain and using a throttle. The police are more bothered by guys riding the gas powered bikes with illegal motors bigger than 49cc going 40mph+ without pedaling even with a chain present. If someone has amped up a bike and is foolish enough to speed in front of a cop with a speed radar, well then they may get a ticket.

There are many questions and legal clarifications that may have to be worked out with states or courts; however, I think you're creating an issue where there is no real issue. I reiterate, the Footloose has a 250watt motor & top speed of 15mph; no faster than a typical kid's Razor ride-on toy and those have no pedals and nobody is giving the kids tickets.

I fully understand the Mondo Footloose has pedals that rotate a generator to charge the battery. The manual is going to imply that the bike can be propoelled just by using those pedals for regulatory reasons, but in a practical sense that claim is not true. If the battery is not charged or present and you pedal you will not move. I'm totally in favor of this product being considered a legal class 2 ebike because there are many other folding scooters that are classified as class 2 ebikes.

Your providing the detail on Texas regulations is very relevant to my original question because it specifically states that the pedals are not a determinate in the classification which is what I was hoping to discover in some states. That makes the most sense.

 

[AlanDB]

My guess is that enforcement of bike laws in most US jurisdictions is pretty lax (with perhaps some obvious exceptions like NYC). So it may be illegal (or maybe not) to ride a Class 2 bike with pedals disabled using the throttle only. But unless you do something obvious that endangers yourself or others, or do something obnoxious causing someone to call in a complaint, I doubt that anyone will notice and you could ride for days without being stopped (just my opinion based on observations in my local riding area).

 

[Ken M]

The part of the question you have left out is, where?

State law governs this kind of question, and different states have different criteria. What is legal in Washington may not be legal in Maine. You really do have to be that specific.

Once you've decided where, you can look at that state's regulations. If you can find them.

My home state, North Carolina, did a major revision to bicycle laws a year or two ago. Previously, you might have thought that ebikes were regulated the same as mopeds, and in the absence of case law making it clear, that may have been true. Then they passed a new law defining ebikes, which is great because it includes my CrossCurrent S speed pedelec. But it's not easy to find the legislation; very few references on Google, and lots of references to the old (now incorrect) information.

Having found that information, you might still not know the answer, because laws can be vague, intentionally or not. Many laws are written with the expectation that a regulatory agency will get down to the details. And after that, case law -- how some judge interprets the law -- becomes part of the governing authority. If there were any news stories written ("Ebike rider with broken chain found not guilty") then it's easier to find. Otherwise, you may or may not have an easy time of finding case law with a Google search. There are search engines like Lexis or Westlaw that are specific to legal stuff, but they aren't cheap.

Seems like a simple question. You might even find an answer.

Here's what it comes down to for me. I'm riding an ebike that's legal in NC. If I break the chain, I no longer have "fully operable pedals" or whatever the exact terminology might be, but I'm still going to use the throttle to get home. If, on the 1000:1 chance that some officer tickets me (I mean, I don't even see a cop every time I ride, much less have them look to if I'm using the throttle while still having fully operable pedals, or using the throttle with inoperable pedals), then OK. Plan B at that point would be to hire one of those ambulance-chasing lawyers who does traffic violations all the time, because until a judge says I'm guilty, I'm not. Just like in baseball: "It ain't a strike until I call it a strike."

Which leaves me with a question, and this is a question, not a snarky comment masquerading as a question: Is there a practical reason for your curiosity?

Hi Bruce, I missed your response earlier ... very good response by the way.

I'm not sure bike regulations are enforced that all bikes by definition must have "functional pedals." I've seen some strider bikes that allow the rider to kick the bike along and even a bike with a treadmill that powers the rear wheel. It's become vague to say the least.

My practical reason for wanting to know is that I believe a viable Class 2 ebike market exists for a low powered sub 20mph escooter that is still a legally compliant eBike. If you consider the many "last mile" pedal-less eBikes that are sold virtually in every state I think the answer is perfectly clear (the original class policy in California that is being adopted by more states did not require a Class 2 ebike to be pedal-able (see below). It's not clear if the other states (besides Texas just adopted this policy as is). Obviously, there are a lot of opinions (my position is just an opinion but I think there is adequate uncertainty that no judge would approve a ticket for a sub-20mph escooter being ridden everywhere an ebike is permitted to ride legally. I hope this makes sense.

 

[ebikemom]

I see e-scooters and e-skateboards and e-uni-wheel-thingys around in my state. I don't know their legal status, but I've never seen anyone giving anyone a problem about them. Since they aren't bicycles, maybe their legal status is different from ebikes?

 

[Ann M.]

It all depends upon what state you're in, ebikemom. Laws vary and are generally not clearly phrased and my experience has been that police here tend to look for folks doing really stupid stuff on e-scooters or ebikes before interfering or ticketing. The gas powered bikes are the ones that are more likely not to be compliant. And technically, those shouldn't even be considered as part of ebike law; however, some pretty gas friendly Texas lawmakers altered state code for that in-between electric vehicle group "Neighborhood Electric Vehicles" like electric golf carts to also allow 49cc & below to be treated like an ebike with no licensing or insurance required.

The guys who sell those kits online (and one is/was an Austin lawyer with a side gig!) regularly sell 79cc kits and rip the motor certification labels off. Now the people who put those overpowered, illegal kits on a typical bike find that it tears up the rear wheel and many times cracks the frame since a regular bike frame isn't designed to handle the torque or flex produced by the oversized gas motors.

 

[Ken M]

I see e-scooters and e-skateboards and e-uni-wheel-thingys around in my state. I don't know their legal status, but I've never seen anyone giving anyone a problem about them. Since they aren't bicycles, maybe their legal status is different from ebikes?

I've seen the same here in Colorado. I think the enforcement is only concerned about anyone doing stupid things on hyped-up super high powered eBikes. If someone is going 20mph on low powered throttle only ebike/escooter/eskateboard no police officer is going to see it as an legal issue (they know the current regulations are just not where they need to be yet).

There are a lot of non-motorized products being sold as bikes (just google "pedal-less bikes to see some) that the idea of "fully operable pedals" is really not part of the requirements to being a legal bike. There is a ?bike? with a thread mill drive system and many people have seen the Street Strider that is a bike using an elliptical drive system. So long as the function like a bike the law is allowing a loose interpretation of what a bike is. I expect the same for what a Class 2 ebike is as well - a sub 20mph emoped will be considered an ebike (already is in California and Texas for sure).

 

[AHicks]

In the broken chain/pedal/whatever scenario, which is placing you in a temporary emergency situation, I'm finding it very difficult to believe a policeman is going to bother you. The fact your bike is no longer able to be propelled by pedaling is a moot issue, with the more important one becoming getting you and your bike to safety. Anyone with any common sense should be able to see that. Proof that common sense does exist would be the case of the broken pedal in NY.

The broken chain is a temporary condition and does not change the bike's original classification.

 

[Ken M]

Here's why I brought this "pedal-less" debate up. What is a temporary condition? Can I remove a chain for say 3 years and just ride with the throttle on a class 2 ebike? I believe this is absolutely legal but some claim it is not.

Here's a class 2 ebike that is available (some call these "last mile" solutions but they are sold as eBikes). I think it should absolutely be legal because it's human scale transportation that we can really benefit from in this country. But there are lawyers, oil & gas companies, and DMV and insurance agencies that want some $$$s for nothing and want these to be classified as mopeds. I'm just trying to be an advocate for common sense so I'm trying to get as much legal precedent information as possible collected because their are opposing law firms just salivating at the potential litigation if the classification of Class 2 ebikes (without traditionally functional pedals) are not clearly legal to ride throughout the US.

I've tried to get someone who claims to be Colorado't top legal professional on eBikes to take a formal position on this and as lawyers do he hasn't or won't. I think like most lawyers he'll wait to see which side of the debate has the potential to put the most money in his pocket and then take a ?courageous? stand.

I ask everyone on this forum to define this as a "bike" or a "moped/motorcycle" (that would require registration, insurance, drivers license, & even paid parking).

 

[AHicks]

Just another opinion, but it sounds to me like you're trying to twist the rules/game the system to your own advantage. A broken chain or pedal is an entirely different TEMPORARY condition when compared to removing the chain for 3 years, which may not be viewed as temporary by many - especially when the bike is not equipped with pedals or even sprockets?

Nice whatever you want to call it (scooter?) in the pic, but I see no way to make it into a bicycle no matter how you interpret the rules.

 

[JohnT]

In California, and I’d bet in most areas, a bicycle must have operable pedals, whether electric or not. If you have a broken chain, the pedals are no longer operable, and therefore it’s no longer legally a bicycle. I see no gray area there, although I think you should get a warning at most.

Like you pointed out, what is legally a pedal *is* a gray area (elliptical, treadmill, generator pedals), but e-scooters generally have nothing that could be reasonably argued to be pedals. E-scooters are not electric bicycles. In California, there are regulations for e-scooters and e-skateboards that are different from ebikes and different from each other.

As far as top speeds being part of the definition, I suppose you could argue they should be higher, but there definitely needs to be limits. Class 1 and 2 ebikes are essentially treated like regular bicycles. Most of us would agree that a 6 year old shouldn’t be legally allowed to ride a 40mph ebike on the road.

In many places, 40 or 50mph ebikes can be legal, but need to be registered as motorcycles, or something similar, with DOT approved tires, lights, etc. I plan on doing something like this one day, although I have other projects in the pipeline that need to be done first.

 

[Ken M]

Not sure you guys have seen the full forum post. The Mondo Footloose does not have traditionally functional pedal and it is legally sold as a bike / class 2 eBike across the country. There are many examples of "pedal-less" last mile eBikes being sold as well (they are allowed on every path a class 1 or class 2 or traditional bike is allowed (there may be some local regulations but overall these products are treated as bikes.

I'm not trying to bend the rules and regulations....I just want clarity because it's crystal clear everyone just thinks there "opinions" are what the regulations are.

Suggesting there definitely needs to be limits on speed is strange when there are cars approaching 300mph capabilities that can be legally driven on all roads so long as the obey the speed limits. Why is it so have for people to grasp that maybe that is the best way to regulated ebike instead of forcing the manufacturers to cut off assist at a stupid low 20mph. To put it simply ... that is too low for ebikes to ever become a true viable form of transportation.

Give this question some thought: If the speed limit can’t be argued as the basis for the assist limit, what is it’s basis?
Remember a good rider on a road bike can easily pedal faster than 30mph and down hill most riders will ride at speeds in excess of 30mph frequently. What is the basis for assist speed limits? Please spare me it's about rider safety and keeping our children safe (don't let kids ride fast ebikes or motorcycles - as a parent that is your responsibility not the manufacturers of a motorcycle that in some cases hit over 200mph).

I just can't help but get a laugh out of people saying it's OK to ride a bike using the throttle if the chain breaks but that is only legal "temporarily." What is the limit of temporary? I know people in Mississippi that have car windows replaced with plastic bags for years that thought it was only going to be a temporary fix.

 

[Ken M]

I hope everyone understands that this is more an effort to ensure that enforcement of the poorly conceived and written eBike regulations are not then enforced arbitrarily. It makes no sense for lawmakers to make this more complicated that it needs to be. Consumer product laws pretty much ensure the bikes are not going to just fall to pieces at 30mph. Putting high priced registrations and insurance requirements on eBikes will just slow their adoption as viable transportation.

I know there are a few people that will argue that restricting the assist speed to 20mph is logical but common sense says it's dubious given that many traditional bike riders exceed that speed with significant regularity (in fact I'm sure most bikers would agree that when riding on a bike on the streets the closer you are to the speed of the cars the safer you are).

I just want common sense and logic to prevail but I do understand that emotions can cloud the mind.