??? Class 2 Regulations on Throttle Usage ????

[AHicks]

Common sense was lacking when they decide that scooter could be operated as a bicycle. To that point I'll agree.

To this "What is the basis for assist speed limits? Please spare me it's about rider safety and keeping our children safe (don't let kids ride fast ebikes or motorcycles - as a parent that is your responsibility not the manufacturers of a motorcycle that in some cases hit over 200mph)."

I'll just say the children they are considering are not the kids on bikes. It's the ones walking or riding along in relative safety, as people who think they can co-mingle with others currently using the trails, while riding at maximum possible speeds, are not allowed to do so.

That's the issue. Keeping the super human speed racer wannabees off the trails, so people that are willing to play by the rules don't feel endangered by that occasional potential. Nobody likes being passed by somebody inches away going several times faster than they are. And I don't care what you think of your potential to handle a bike safely at speeds in excess of 20, I have to ask about your willingness to take a ride out into the woods as you come around a blind corner riding at a speed like that, only to find the trail completely blocked by dogs tied to a baby carriage? It's not just about you.

 

[Ken M]

Common sense was lacking when they decide that scooter could be operated as a bicycle. To that point I'll agree.

To this "What is the basis for assist speed limits? Please spare me it's about rider safety and keeping our children safe (don't let kids ride fast ebikes or motorcycles - as a parent that is your responsibility not the manufacturers of a motorcycle that in some cases hit over 200mph)."

I'll just say the children they are considering are not the kids on bikes. It's the ones walking or riding along in relative safety, as people who think they can co-mingle with others currently using the trails, while riding at maximum possible speeds, are not allowed to do so.

That's the issue. Keeping the super human speed racer wannabees off the trails, so people that are willing to play by the rules don't feel endangered by that occasional potential. Nobody likes being passed by somebody inches away going several times faster than they are. And I don't care what you think of your potential to handle a bike safely at speeds in excess of 20, I have to ask about your willingness to take a ride out into the woods as you come around a blind corner riding at a speed like that, only to find the trail completely blocked by dogs tied to a baby carriage? It's not just about you.

The safety element you bring up is real, but you don't solve it by limiting the assist speed. A downhill rider on a non-assist bike can be traveling at very fast speeds and be a significant threat to people hiking the same trail. This is why there are SPEED LIMITS. If the trail is a pedestrian and bike trail then establish a speed limit. If there are bikers going up and down the same trail then there are risks as well. Some bike trails should be directional just like we have directional lanes for cars.

See you are using emotion instead of intellect to deal with the safety elements.

If I'm on an eBike riding on the a main street with a speed limit of 45mph going in the direction of the lane traffic then maybe you can explain to me why as assist speed of 20mph is making me safer. It's not. The fact is safety is conditional and not always solved with one simple rule that was based on the emotions of people that probably haven't ridden a bike in 20 years because they are scared to get hurt.

Think for a second. Why are we allowed to buy a car that can reach 250mph when the fast posted speed in the US is 75mph? Because they may want to use that car at a track to go faster but when they are driving that car on public roads they are required to follow the speed limits or deal with the consequences of not doing so. Why are the rules different for eBikes? Again...."What is the basis for assist speed limits?

 

[AHicks]

Sidewalks and trails are what we're talking about when considering speed limits that make sense regarding bicycles.

I don't think riders seeing how fast they can go down hills, co-mingling with cars in areas with 45 mph speed limits, or how fast a car will go are real relevant.

 

[Ken M]

Sidewalks and trails are what we're talking about when considering speed limits that make sense regarding bicycles.

I don't think riders seeing how fast they can go down hills, co-mingling with cars in areas with 45 mph speed limits, or how fast a car will go are real relevant.

Yet you think limiting the assist speed is relevant. Per your logic all cars should have a top speed limit they can go and it should be set at the slowest speed of a neighborhood road...so let's set their "assist" speed to 20mph also. If an ebike "co-mingling with cars where the speed limit is 45mph," as you put it, why should the assist speed be limited to 20mph? You said that is not relevant but you are advocating for ebike assist speeds to be limited to 20mph. Think thru your logic on this...

I have said I support speed limits on sidewalks and shared trails. That is not the same thing as physically limiting the capability of the bikes so they can not assist past those speeds say when a biker is on a street bike lane/path where cars are allowed to go 45mph (and some good bikers not on eBikes are going 30+ on road bikes and recumbents). I think the problem with debating people on this is that they equate limiting the assist speed of the ebike as the equivalent of setting speed limits. They are not the same and I'm trying my very best to educate but that does not come easy these days.

I also don't want to be walking on a sidewalk with bikers going 35mph or more right past me. That would be a bit un-nerving but for some reason you and so many other fail to understand the difference between speed limits and limiting the speed of the eBike. Establish speed limits just like we do on roads and enforce them the same way. Is there a problem with controlling the speed of ebikes in certain applications the exact same way we limit the speeds that cars can travel on certain roads. We don't allow someone that owns a Bugatti to drive around at 200mph+ just because the car is capable of that.

 

[AHicks]

<<<"I have said I support speed limits on sidewalks and shared trails. ">>>

I must have missed that.

All we have to do now is figure out how to enforce speed limits on sidewalks and trails, to the point where speeding is rarely (never?) an issue, and who's going to foot the bill for that....

Until then, we'll need to agree to disagree on the max speed potential for a bicycle that's to be used on sidewalks and shared trails. I'm relatively sure a "self policing" policy would not work well in practice.

Bottom line, even if they limited performance/speed to 15mph (a speed I rarely exceed) I'd be fine. This in return for the ability to use multipurpose trails seems like a cheap price to pay here. Some of the newer trails, especially those that are not part of the "rails to trails" initiative, are just breathtaking.

Possibly noteworthy is the fact I ride for sport, meaning I'm never going to be in a hurry on a bicycle. If I'm in a hurry, there's motorcycles.....

 

[JohnT]

Let’s look at your example of cars. You may own a car capable of exceeding the speed limit, but to operate a car, you’re required to have a license, and if you prove to be an unsafe driver, that license can be taken away. Your car needs to meet safety standards based on its expected operating speeds. You need DOT approved tires and lights. You can’t drive a car on a sidewalk nor on bike paths.

Because bicycles operate at lower speeds, they have much fewer requirements. You don’t need a license, registration, or insurance. You don’t need tires that are safe at prolonged high speeds. In California, if you’re an adult, you don’t need a helmet.

If you want a high speed ebike, there are ways to register them in many states. If you don’t want to meet all the regulations for a motor vehicle, you don’t get to play at motor vehicle speeds.

 

[Ken M]

So you like riding around your neighborhood at a comfortable safe speed of 15 mph and want that as the standard for everyone else to comply with. Wow.

I have an 18 mile commute each way and I don't want to take over an hour to do that so slow riders feel good that no one is riding faster than they feel comfortable going. I'd rather ride a bike that get in a car to improve my health and to I think human scale transportation is important. Sadly time is money and you don't seem to want to realize that is part of the equation for eBikes to get more people out of cars.

You keep flip flopping reasons for the assist limit. One second it's only because you view them as only being used on sidewalks and the next it's because there is no viable way to control speed limits than to limit the assist speed. I'm not going to change your mind.

I rode my banana seat Schwinn back in the late 70s early 80s faster than you ride your ebike. I guess I was a crazy 10 year old.

 

[Ken M]

By the way, the lack of a good way to enforce speed limits is not logic for setting the the assist limit at the lowest speed of any usage of an ebike.

I wonder how many supporters of the EU 15 mph or US 20 mph assist limits believed the 55 mph speed limit on highways and interstates should never have been raised.

 

[AHicks]

You're twisting my words to suit your purpose, and you're getting personal. You ask for opinions, and with all that's been written, you should have a pretty good idea of mine.

Have a good day.

BTW, agree wholeheartedly with JohnT's thoughts/comments.