Can we change the culture?

[J.R.]

In the U.S. the law used to be 750 watts, throttle or PAS or both. No distinction. The industry pushed the 3 class law and now the ebike community is divided. The industry caused this division. Now even states (like mine) that do not have the 3 class law, local governments within the state use the class designations to limit access to infrastructure and trails. Five years ago we were all just ebikers. Now we are class 1, 2 or 3 ebikers. In my opinion we were better off with the old regulations.

I can say from experience that land managers, regulators and legislators do not like throttles or speed pedelecs (class 3) on cycling infrastructure and they are limiting access all across North America. I know this because I'm involved with access regulation issues. Class 3 aren't legal in my home state, yet class 3 bikes are sold and being ridden here. Lawmakers know this. I've witnessed riders freely admitting it to them. That doesn't go over well when we are trying to convince lawmakers to include us and that we will obey the rules. Throttles have been banned on off road, state owned land here and local governments are doing the same. The rule covers all trails and paths. I don't have any issue with class 2 ebikes, I have owned them. It's not my choice today, but I wouldn't throw those riders that want/need one under the bus. Some older riders feel a sense of security having a throttle. In my opinion the 3 class law was a mistake, unless the idea all along was to single out a class to limit access. I can say from my experience it's a losing proposition to fight the regulators to accept throttles. I believe when enforcement really comes, throttles and speed pedelecs will be banned from all cycling infrastructure. It's just a matter of time. Just my opinion.

Regardless of where in the world we are our numbers are small when compared to cars, motorcycles and traditional bicycles. It's a shame the industry decided we needed to be divided into three smaller groups.

 

[indianajo]

Excuses to be lazy, in my opinion.
If your knees hurt, downshift.

Which branch did you do your military service? Not yet? Volunteer now.
The Army destroyed my knees with daily running in combat boots. They also helped scare the USSR into surrendering Poland. Think M1 vs T80, 7:1 kill ratio. We didn't need nukes then to stop the USSR. Russia is rising in power again, and causing trouble just because they can.
Most days I leave the electricity off entirely. There are days when I can't pedal. If that happens out of town on supply run day, without a throttle I can eat leaves and grass out there until my knee heals up.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Which branch did you do your military service? Not yet? Volunteer now.

Sergeant-cadet, a chemical trooper.
Honestly, no one of us would fight the U.S. Army back in 1987. We were scared of the Blackhawk.

 

[antboy]

In the U.S. the law used to be 750 watts, throttle or PAS or both. No distinction. The industry pushed the 3 class law and now the ebike community is divided. The industry caused this division. Now even states (like mine) that do not have the 3 class law, local governments within the state use the class designations to limit access to infrastructure and trails. Five years ago we were all just ebikers. Now we are class 1, 2 or 3 ebikers. In my opinion we were better off with the old regulations.

We'll just have to get more clever with hiding our throttles.

Seriously though, when you say industry pushed the classes, do you mean the established bike brands? I'm not trying to be facetious here. I'm not familiar with the history of the 3 classes in North America.

Did the "big brands" like Specialized and Trek just embrace the overly restrictive (IMHO) EU rules, and encouraged US law makers to (loosely) adopt something similar so that they wouldn't have to bifurcate their product lines, therefore keeping manufacturing costs "down"?

 

[J.R.]

We'll just have to get more clever with hiding our throttles.

Seriously though, when you say industry pushed the classes, do you mean the established bike brands? I'm not trying to be facetious here. I'm not familiar with the history of the 3 classes in North America.

Did the "big brands" like Specialized and Trek just embrace the overly restrictive (IMHO) EU rules, and encouraged US law makers to (loosely) adopt something similar so that they wouldn't have to bifurcate their product lines, therefore keeping manufacturing costs "down"?

People For Bikes is the lobbyist for the 3 class law. They get the money to function from the industry. Not just the big brands.

PeopleForBikes | Every ride. Every rider. Join us.

PeopleForBikes is committed to improving biking for everyone. Learn more about our work and join our movement.

peopleforbikes.org

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Did the "big brands" like Specialized and Trek just embrace the overly restrictive (IMHO) EU rules

EU has the "Class 3" law, L1e-B S-Pedelecs. I'm riding one. Made by one of the mentioned big brands.

 

[Pale rider]

I only wonder why people insist on riding a bicycle when they are not able to. Call it e-motorbike. Not e-bike.
I wrote before that the seriously disabled are excused. Only don't call it e-bike.

I will call it what ever I please. You may speak for your self, but, you may not speak for others, so, YOU may shove it up your control box, and smooch my rear tire in the process!

 

[Mr. Coffee]

...
Regardless of where in the world we are our numbers are small when compared to cars, motorcycles and traditional bicycles. It's a shame the industry decided we needed to be divided into three smaller groups.

I will emphatically second what J.R. is saying.

In my own conversations with land management agencies, trail organizations, and elected officials it has been made painfully clear that they generally have no problem at all with 20mph pedal assist e-bikes, but have big issues with speed pedelecs and e-bikes with throttles. A lot of them have also told me privately that they do not consider a situation where class I e-bikes are allowed and other classes are prohibited is enforceable, and that a blanket e-bike ban is just easier from an administrative standpoint.

So I agree the long-term choice is going to be (1) "class I" type e-bikes are allowed nearly everywhere an acoustic bike is allowed, or (2) all e-bikes are banned everywhere. I know which one I'd pick, and I'd gladly throw anyone who'd rather ride their throttle-equipped e-bike illegally under the bus.

We do not live in the world we'd like to live in, but the real world. There are practical limits to what is and is not possible and all of us will be better off if we just learn to deal with it.

 

[oojoe]

Hey ...You kids get off my lawn!

I was told by one auto driver he owns the road..in front of my house..oddly...

so I don't drive (due to vision disability) and cut thru a park the other day ..on the way back thru park I saw a no ebikes sign as I returned...and made sure I used petal assist and not the throttle .... another park has no mountain bikes down a horse trail ...a city bike is fine ..but only horse shoes get to go down in the muddy trail...,,
I get no respect... just the other day I'm doing 25mph around a hair pin corner with a speed limit of 15 mph cars coming other direction and this truck has to pass me ,,only to have me catch up at the light ... I made a point to pass him aka let the idiot see he just wasted his time...

The fact that buses wont take ebike... is one I don't like..
The batteries and extra weight seems to bother hartline in tampa. they could make money on me If I could take my ebike...it's only 9 miles to the closest bus stop.. and by then I'm half way down town...

bus service in rural tampa bay does not exist...

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Just another thought about throttles...

It does not seem particularly challenging, to me to come up with a solution to the problems people are trying to solve with throttles without it being a throttle. There are a lot of intelligent and mechanically inclined people on this board and out in the real world who could solve this problem if they wanted to.

I'll give one example that I came up with in about five minutes. If you'd spend more time and effort you'd likely come up with a much better solution.

One nice feature of cadence-only assist bikes is that you can ghost pedal, where with just a very slow motion of the cranks and no torque you can engage the motor and move along nicely for very little effort. So imagine that you had a big red button on your handlebars that, when pressed, would disengage torque sensing (only using cadence sensing) and provide 100 percent motor power for 5 seconds. You'd want a safety cap on that button so it couldn't be accidentally engaged when you are walking the bike or otherwise not riding it. That would not be a throttle but would give you, I think, 99 percent of what a throttle buys you without being a throttle.

As an additional refinement pressing that hypothetical button for 3 seconds would disable torque sensing (only using cadence sensing) until you tap the button again. So you could ghost pedal indefinitely.

I am sure a bunch of people on here are going to post on why that wouldn't work. And they'd probably be right. But I am sure that there is a solution and it would be a more constructive use of everyone's time to get cracking and solve this problem rather than bellyaching about it. From my standpoint this wouldn't be that hard to invent, it wouldn't be that hard to patent, and you might make a nice little bit of money licensing it to e-bike makers.

 

[highpockets]

Folks you all are going nuts here, why does anyone care what someone else likes - different strokes for different folks. My personal belief is that anyone that is 6'2" or so should weigh no more than 175 pounds or they're overweight, but that's my own feelings, it's up to you to weigh what you want... Unless you're sitting next to me on a flight and invading my space.

I sure hope the weather breaks here soon. I gotta lose some weight!

 

[Lightning P38]

I think many here in the US, and perhaps overseas as well, somehow feel uncomfortable about being passed. Perhaps they feel their masculinity is being threatened, I'm not sure. I've noticed this phenomenon with joggers passing walkers and cars on the highway as well.

I'm with Stefan here and make it a point to never pass anyone if it can be avoided. If overtaking a fellow rider at a reasonable pace, I'll slow down to match their speed and enjoy the scenery. If the speed is too slow, I'll stop for a sip of water or even a snack as they continue on. Most of the time, I don't see them again or pass while they are stopped. When I'm forced to pass, I do so at walking speed with plenty of polite warning. Even though I'm often annoyed at people unnecessarily blocking the trail with no regard for others, I'm always as courteous as possible and say "thank you" as I pass.

If I see someone overtaking me, I'll speed up to maintain a reasonable distance between us. If the pace becomes too fast for my comfort, I'll pull over and let them pass.

Being retired gives me the necessary mindset to use this approach since I'm rarely in a hurry anymore and simply out to enjoy myself. I understand this philosophy doesn't set well with younger, more speed oriented riders who are out for vigorous exercise and to rack up the miles though.

With over 4K trail miles on my ebike so far using this approach, I have yet to have any significant negative encounters. My age and relatively stealthy ebike may also be a factor however.

The only relatively minor unpleasantness I've had is with a group of younger spandex clad riders at a trailside picnic area. I was eating lunch at a table with my bike in a rack a few yards away when the group noticed the ebike. Not realizing I was the owner, they began making disparaging remarks. When one of them said "These things are tearing up the trail by spinning wheels and doing wheel stands!" I started laughing. I walked over and explained the 500 watt motor was no more capable of such a thing than my grandmother on a tricycle. They laughed a bit and the mood lightened when they realized it was an ancient old guy who owned the bike. I doubt the encounter did much to change their opinion of ebikes though.

I ride the Lackawanna Heritage trail in Scranton and north to Forest City. I just put a kit on my recumbent, so I can do some street riding on the streets in Scranton. I live in Dickson City, and am riding to downtown Scranton today to see how the kit performs. I have had two attacks, so the pumper is Not as strong as it used to be!

 

[Oberst]

Oxford English dictionary:
[intransitive] cheat (at something) to act in a dishonest way in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game, a competition, an exam, etc.

If you use your assist to gain unfair advantage in a race, you are cheating. If you use assist to ride your bike, you are riding your bike.

 

[Lightning P38]

Just another thought about throttles...

It does not seem particularly challenging, to me to come up with a solution to the problems people are trying to solve with throttles without it being a throttle. There are a lot of intelligent and mechanically inclined people on this board and out in the real world who could solve this problem if they wanted to.

I'll give one example that I came up with in about five minutes. If you'd spend more time and effort you'd likely come up with a much better solution.

One nice feature of cadence-only assist bikes is that you can ghost pedal, where with just a very slow motion of the cranks and no torque you can engage the motor and move along nicely for very little effort. So imagine that you had a big red button on your handlebars that, when pressed, would disengage torque sensing (only using cadence sensing) and provide 100 percent motor power for 5 seconds. You'd want a safety cap on that button so it couldn't be accidentally engaged when you are walking the bike or otherwise not riding it. That would not be a throttle but would give you, I think, 99 percent of what a throttle buys you without being a throttle.

As an additional refinement pressing that hypothetical button for 3 seconds would disable torque sensing (only using cadence sensing) until you tap the button again. So you could ghost pedal indefinitely.

I am sure a bunch of people on here are going to post on why that wouldn't work. And they'd probably be right. But I am sure that there is a solution and it would be a more constructive use of everyone's time to get cracking and solve this problem rather than bellyaching about it. From my standpoint this wouldn't be that hard to invent, it wouldn't be that hard to patent, and you might make a nice little bit of money licensing it to e-bike makers.

I tried ghost pedaling today and it worked to keep recording speed and distance. If I coast I lose both. I have a throttle, but I do not use it. Easier to let the automatic pedal assist do its thing.

 

[CMac]

I'm seventy five and ride a ebike recumbent. I've have four heart stents, one 90 percent blocked artery, have had two cancer surgeries, endarterectomy of my left carotid artery and I am diabetic. I really don't care if someone thinks I'm cheating or not as I am in a fight to maintain my health and independence. I would give up my ebike if I could go back to where I was physically twenty years ago. In Tulsa we have 107 miles of paved trails, that is where I ride most of the time. Some are very crowded and I ride slowly. Little kids and people unaware that they are walking in the bike trails are every where. Parents apologize when you have to stop, I say I understand, I'm a grandpa. People who make comments on my bike usually say cool bike or rad or if I'm stopped we will get in a discussion about the build. I've only been told "that's cheating" one time, I chuckled and took it as a complement. What would be cheating would be to stay in my recliner and not fight to maintain my health, cheating myself, my wife, my children, my grand children and my four legged pets.

 

[Lightning P38]

I'm seventy five and ride a ebike recumbent. I've have four heart stents, one 90 percent blocked artery, have had two cancer surgeries, endarterectomy of my left carotid artery and I am diabetic. I really don't care if someone thinks I'm cheating or not as I am in a fight to maintain my health and independence. I would give up my ebike if I could go back to where I was physically twenty years ago. In Tulsa we have 107 miles of paved trails, that is where I ride most of the time. Some are very crowded and I ride slowly. Little kids and people unaware that they are walking in the bike trails are every where. Parents apologize when you have to stop, I say I understand, I'm a grandpa. People who make comments on my bike usually say cool bike or rad or if I'm stopped we will get in a discussion about the build. I've only been told "that's cheating" one time, I chuckled and took it as a complement. What would be cheating would be to stay in my recliner and not fight to maintain my health, cheating myself, my wife, my children, my grand children and my four legged pets.

James,

You sound like me. Two heart attacks and 5 stents. Have to walk up the hills after the first two or three hills. Not anymore, with the ebike kit I installed. It is great! My Lightning had 17,000 miles on it before I added the kit.

 

[Marci jo]

Lightning p38, is the a recumbent? I had a Rans v-rex for some years. No sore butt on a recumbent!

 

[Lightning P38]

Lightning p38, is the a recumbent? I had a Rans v-rex for some years. No sore butt on a recumbent!

Yes, the Lightning P38. I used to ride it with the full fairing when I lived in Waterloo, IA, on the wide open paced county roads. The fairing was “Another day in paradise” kind of ride. Which I had imprinted on the tail piece.

Here it is too crowded to ride fast, plus the hills are killers. But with the electric boost, I can go faster up hills now than I could with the fairing, even with a week pumper. After my heart attack years I didn’t ride much, but now I am back into it.

 

[Lightning P38]

Lightning p38, is the a recumbent? I had a Rans v-rex for some years. No sore butt on a recumbent!

Rans made good recumbents...in Kansas. Lightning is made in Lompoc, CA.

No sore wrists, and no sore butt. But I did ride a tanden Rans once that I got recumbent butt after 12 miles. The metal seat pan caused me pain....either the bike seat needed more padding, or I did.

We bought the Vision tandem as the seats were more comfortable. Vision was made in Oregon.

 

[6zfshdb]

Just another thought about throttles...

It does not seem particularly challenging, to me to come up with a solution to the problems people are trying to solve with throttles without it being a throttle. There are a lot of intelligent and mechanically inclined people on this board and out in the real world who could solve this problem if they wanted to.

I'll give one example that I came up with in about five minutes. If you'd spend more time and effort you'd likely come up with a much better solution.

One nice feature of cadence-only assist bikes is that you can ghost pedal, where with just a very slow motion of the cranks and no torque you can engage the motor and move along nicely for very little effort. So imagine that you had a big red button on your handlebars that, when pressed, would disengage torque sensing (only using cadence sensing) and provide 100 percent motor power for 5 seconds. You'd want a safety cap on that button so it couldn't be accidentally engaged when you are walking the bike or otherwise not riding it. That would not be a throttle but would give you, I think, 99 percent of what a throttle buys you without being a throttle.

As an additional refinement pressing that hypothetical button for 3 seconds would disable torque sensing (only using cadence sensing) until you tap the button again. So you could ghost pedal indefinitely.

I am sure a bunch of people on here are going to post on why that wouldn't work. And they'd probably be right. But I am sure that there is a solution and it would be a more constructive use of everyone's time to get cracking and solve this problem rather than bellyaching about it. From my standpoint this wouldn't be that hard to invent, it wouldn't be that hard to patent, and you might make a nice little bit of money licensing it to e-bike makers.

A stealthy throttle would indeed be possible and not particularly expensive to implement.

During a trip to Cape Cod last fall, I stopped in a LBS who rents e-bikes on the cape. The bikes they rent are class 2 Pedego Interceptors which, according to Massachusetts law, are illegal on the cape trails. The store salesperson told me that enforcement is almost non existent and they have had no trouble at all. He said he has heard of only one incident where a park cop spotted a split grip twist throttle on a bike in a parking lot.

None of their rental bikes have class stickers and if problems begin to occur, they will make changes. They plan to remove the easily identifiable right side split grip twist throttles with thumb throttles mounted on the left handlebar. He showed me the product they plan to use and it indeed is quite stealthy, especially mounted on the left:

Amazon.com : GLOGLOW E-Bike Scooter Speed Control 3 Wires Thumb Throttle for Left/Right Handle : Sports & Outdoors

Amazon.com : GLOGLOW E-Bike Scooter Speed Control 3 Wires Thumb Throttle for Left/Right Handle : Sports & Outdoors

www.amazon.com

While I'm not a fan of breaking the law, particularly when deceit is involved, we each do what we have to do. I ride a class 2 bike and use the throttle only to get started, particularly on hills or road crossings. My torque sensor has a slight delay which means I have to exert considerable pedal force to get going and my aging joints aren't up to the task. Once in motion, the PAS or ghost pedaling in cadence mode works fine and the throttle isn't necessary.

I can understand the anti throttle class 1 crowd fearing that throttles will fuel stricter e-bike laws due to uninformed regulators. Unfortunately, a throttle is a necessity for me and until senior / handicapped exclusions are passed, I'm forced to either give up my beloved sport or ride my class 2 bike in some locations as an "outlaw".