Best Mid-Drive Torque Sensing Commuter under 3k

[JimboPinfold]

I am selling my car and my household is moving to a single vehicle. I would like a bike that can help get me around town and carry reasonable amounts of groceries or other items. Ideally the bike could be ridden by my 5’ 6” wife as well as 5’8” me. I am an avid cyclist and mountain biker and marathon runner. For this reason, I expect I would prefer a torque sensor based mid-drive as it would feel the most natural. If that is not the case and there are other options, please let me know. Obviously it would be great to get a class 3 bike but at this price point, there aren’t a ton of options that are torque sensor. I am fine with most basic bike maintenance so direct to consumer is ok. I weigh about 160lbs, the terrain is rolling in the part of Maryland where I live. Not too many sustained high grade hills nearby. Most trips will be well under 20 miles round trip.

Best option I have seen: Ride1up Prodigy - but it is out of stock

Requirements:
reasonable weight
good amount of assist for when I have a bit on the rack
Decent quality components
Bike rack
Under $3000, ideally more like $2500

I have been doing a lot of reading, but the amount of options is dizzying. I would love input as I know many on this forum are very well versed in the options available. Thank you!

 

[Dewey]

I like the Kona eCoco, it's a Class 1, but it's a great all-rounder, 3 frame sizes, 43lb, pannier rack lugs on both the rear and front fork, a decent power mid-drive motor with a torque sensor Shimano Steps e6100 (60nm), a reasonable range 9-speed 11-32t cassette/38t chainring spread, Mixte/step-through, comfortable 2" wide puncture resistant 650b street tires, check out Court's review of the 2020 model not much has changed for this year except they dropped the DL model with the internal battery but kept the external removeable battery and it has a nicer color. The one upgrade I would recommend would be to talk to the Kona dealer about upgrading the headlight to the one used on the higher spec Dew-E DL model, the Busch and Müller IQ-XS E is twice as bright and has a wider beam pattern. If the Kona dealer can't get the headlight, you can order it from Peter White.

 

[JimboPinfold]

Unfortunately, I don’t have Kona dealers nearby. I do have the following:
Trek
Specialized
Scott
Gazelle
Raleigh
Diamondback
Giant
Electra
Batch
Canondale
Haibike
Izip
Momentum
Montegue
Terrabike
Pedego
Coop
Yuba
Tern

So lots to choose from locally in addition to factory direct.

 

[Dewey]

As you have a Giant dealer nearby I’d look at the Momentum LaFree E+ which comes in 3 frame sizes and has a reasonable Yamaha motor with torque sensor.

Tern HSD P9 is good for hauling cargo and has a nice adjustable handlebar and seatpost that accommodate a couple sharing the bike, and they also fold down so you can fit the bike into the trunk of an SUV or station wagon. Buy from REI and join as Co-Op member to get the 10% rebate, and another 5% discount if you buy it on the REI credit card.

The REI Co-Op CTY e2.2 model uses the same Shimano e6100 motor as the Kona, but it is sold out and they currently have only the e2.1 model with the weaker e5000 motor, but the e2.2 has been in and out of stock 3 times since last fall so it is worth checking in with REI every couple of months if you can wait.

Gazelle Medeo T9 HMB with the Bosch Active Line Plus motor would be a good town bike, don’t go for the Medeo T9 City entry level model which has the weaker Bosch Active Line motor

 

[JimboPinfold]

I know I said mid-drive. But what about bikes with hubmotors and torque sensors? I imagine the experience would be basically as good as mid-drive, no? The Juiced CrossCurrent X seems like a hell of a deal. Massive battery and powerful Motor with decent components. I do wish it had slightly fatter tires on a 27.5 wheel. Does this seem like a good fit? Are there other similar options out there?

 

[AHicks]

I know I said mid-drive. But what about bikes with hubmotors and torque sensors? I imagine the experience would be basically as good as mid-drive, no? The Juiced CrossCurrent X seems like a hell of a deal. Massive battery and powerful Motor with decent components. I do wish it had slightly fatter tires on a 27.5 wheel. Does this seem like a good fit? Are there other similar options out there?

Don't loose sight of the fact that those tires are easily replaced once you own the bike. IMHO, they don't make the perfect bike. Only something close. One that's easily modified to become your dream bike....

 

[linklemming]

I know I said mid-drive. But what about bikes with hubmotors and torque sensors? I imagine the experience would be basically as good as mid-drive, no? The Juiced CrossCurrent X seems like a hell of a deal. Massive battery and powerful Motor with decent components. I do wish it had slightly fatter tires on a 27.5 wheel. Does this seem like a good fit? Are there other similar options out there?

FWIW, I own a CCX and have put about 4k miles on it. It was my fastest ebike till I went DIY (BBSHD and GMAC) including a Brose Class 3 bike.

While it does have a torque sensor, its feel is not as nice as my my two Brose Based bikes. That being said, this difference becomes less as the speed increases. I think its more than sufficient for a commuter.

I ran my CCX as essentially a gravel bike. I removed the fenders/racks and ran marathon plus MTB tires on it. 2.25(measured at 2.1) at the front and 2.1(measured 1.8) in the rear on the stock 19mm internal width rims (a little narrow but within limits of most tire size/rim width recommendations). The 2.25 would not fit in the rear.

Never thought about trying 27.5 rims/tires for some odd reason. Since I build my own wheels these days I might build up a wheel over the winter to try out.

 

[AHicks]

FWIW, I own a CCX and have put about 4k miles on it. It was my fastest ebike till I went DIY (BBSHD and GMAC) including a Brose Class 3 bike.

While it does have a torque sensor, its feel is not as nice as my my two Brose Based bikes. That being said, this difference becomes less as the speed increases. I think its more than sufficient for a commuter.

I ran my CCX as essentially a gravel bike. I removed the fenders/racks and ran marathon plus MTB tires on it. 2.25(measured at 2.1) at the front and 2.1(measured 1.8) in the rear on the stock 19mm internal width rims (a little narrow but within limits of most tire size/rim width recommendations). The 2.25 would not fit in the rear.

Never thought about trying 27.5 rims/tires for some odd reason. Since I build my own wheels these days I might build up a wheel over the winter to try out.

Build your own opens up even more possibilities, doesn't it!

 

[Dewey]

Surface 604 have torque sensor hub motor ebikes, Check out Court’s review of the Rook model which has 27.5x2.4” wheels

 

[PedalUma]

I have a $650 Yuba Boda Boda from Craigslist I will convert. These will hold 220 pounds on the rear rack and about 100 pounds in the front rack. I have converted a bunch of cargo bikes including two Boda Bodas so far. The Boda has a lightweight aluminum frame, a low step and a curvy shape. Just chop off any ugly wires and connectors and you will be fine. The motor fits between the pedals.

 

[EMGX]

You sound like a very fit rider who doesn't want or need "motorbike" performance that so many on this forum seem to prefer. If you have a few bikes in the garage consider converting one with a tongsheng tsdz2 like Pedaluma does professionally. I have two of the tongsheng tsdz2 and moved them around on several bikes and liked it on all of them. Good assist, quiet for an ebike, relatively inexpensive and you can take it off and put it on at will. With some experience it can take only an hour or so to put it on a bike or take it off and restore the bike to its original configuration. I've done this several times. If that is an option you might want to ignore opinions posted on this site that it is too hard to do, or takes to long or whatever. Some people try to improve performance by "programming" it, and fail. Don't need to do that it works well right out of the box. Depending on the bike there can be some challenges but I've made it work on every bike I tried it on. for compatible bikes if you can change a bottom bracket cartridge you should be able to easily install one of these. In my experience you don't need an expensive battery - I have cheap Amazon sourced batteries that work flawlessly at <<$200/battery. Including a battery it can cost ~$600 to do a conversion rather than drop thousands on an unknown to you bike that you probably won't even get to test ride.

Yesterday I went for a ride with my wife. I could have ridden a Yamaha PW-SE mid drive road/gravel bike (which I like a lot) but as usual I preferred a tongsheng converted bike. I rode without a battery for 10 miles while my wife used it very generously on a hilly route then I took the battery and rode another 25 miles on an even more hilly ride. The (notoriously inaccurate) battery charge indicator bars still show half charge left in the battery. I've ridden well over 40 miles using this 36v 10ah battery and still had significant charge left - so in my use high capacity, heavy, expensive batteries aren't necessary or desirable.

Here is a picture on yesterday's ride. Up and down hills including to near the level of the river. The motor assists up to 28mph but much above 20mph it takes significantly more effort but is still helpful. Just something to maybe consider in your search.

 

[JimboPinfold]

Thanks for the thoughts. I ended up ordering a Coop CTY 2.2. It really came the closest to checking all the boxes at a reasonable price for me. I also like the ability to customize the shimano’s settings a bit, which to me negates the concern about only having 3 assist levels. The fact that It should pair to my Garmin is also quite appealing.

 

[Dewey]

Good call, please post your impressions after it arrives

 

[EMGX]

That looks like a really nice utility bike and it sounds like REI can't be beat in after sale support and service.

 

[linklemming]

Some people try to improve performance by "programming" it, and fail. Don't need to do that it works well right out of the box.

Could you give some 'exact' clarification to what you are talking about here. What exactly do you consider 'programming'. Are the people you are referring to using the standard Tsdz2 software (which is pretty bad IMHO) or the open source version.

In early 2019, I bought a tsdz2 and put on the opensource software. I did make it much better with the opensource software and improved it even further by changing 'modifiable parameters'. I even made some improvements by altering the firmware although trying to improve torque response was pretty much impossible due to the latencies inherent in the hardware low pass filter on the torque sensor signal (documented on youtube). Torque response was not even in the same league as by Brose bikes although better than cadence only systems.

Did I somehow fail

FWIW, my tsdz2 developed bad 'clunking' after less than 1k miles due to horrendous axle up/down play. It also overheated when pushed much over 23mph or so or going up really steep terrain (my brose bikes dont do this on the uphills). Its been in the landfill for awhile now. Glad you like yours

 

[EMGX]

You must have gotten a bad unit or it was on you. I and others feel the tsdz2 performs as well as some big name assist mid drives (and there are plenty of reports of failures of the big name motors posted on this site alone). I have two, a 36v 500w version and a 48v 750w version with several hundred miles on each. My point of reference is a Yamaha PW-SE with which it compares very favorably. IMO the torque sensing function and assist is excellent, smooth and natural right out of the box very similar to the Yamaha. I live on a mountain and ride some pretty hilly routes, the motor housing has at worst been warm to the touch. It has never seemed to "overheat" even after pulling long steep grades (no warmer than the Yamaha) although there is no way I could ride "23mph" up the mountain I live on with either the Yamaha (which assists only to 20mph) or the Tongsheng bikes. I ride it like a bicycle, not a motorbike.

I've done "performance" modifications on motorcycles/scooters and ridden them in ways that they weren't designed for. If they failed I'd own it and not blame the original hardware which wasn't designed for what I did to it.
Too bad you threw yours away, a shame to put something in a land fill that someone might have been able to fix and put to use after maybe new bearings or axle and a new controller to get it back to the typical excellent performing stock configuration.

 

[linklemming]

You must have gotten a bad unit or it was on you. I and others feel the tsdz2 performs as well as some big name assist mid drives (and there are plenty of reports of failures of the big name motors posted on this site alone). I have two, a 36v 500w version and a 48v 750w version with several hundred miles on each. My point of reference is a Yamaha PW-SE with which it compares very favorably. IMO the torque sensing function and assist is excellent, smooth and natural right out of the box very similar to the Yamaha. I live on a mountain and ride some pretty hilly routes, the motor housing has at worst been warm to the touch. It has never seemed to "overheat" even after pulling long steep grades (no warmer than the Yamaha) although there is no way I could ride "23mph" up the mountain I live on with either the Yamaha (which assists only to 20mph) or the Tongsheng bikes. I ride it like a bicycle, not a motorbike.

I've done "performance" modifications on motorcycles/scooters and ridden them in ways that they weren't designed for. If they failed I'd own it and not blame the original hardware which wasn't designed for what I did to it.
Too bad you threw yours away, a shame to put something in a land fill that someone might have been able to fix and put to use after maybe new bearings or axle and a new controller to get it back to the typical excellent performing stock configuration.

I never stated that I was riding 23mph uphill, I stated that it overheated going over 23mph period (note my use of 'or' instead of 'while'). Please dont cherry pick unrelated things in my posts to try to discredit me. The reason being that over 23mph (or so, the power being used which is displayed in real time by the opensource software was over 500w) at which point the motor would start warming up dramatically (the temp was also displayed in real time via the opensource software). This is expected due to the exponential power increases due to wind resistance. The tsdz2 although great for what it is is just too small for the power requirements of higher speed.

I ran my tsdz2 limited to 750w (max power limit independent of voltage is possible with the opensource software) so in fact it is equivalent to your 48v 750w version. It ran at 48v for most of its life till the 48v battery failed which was replaced with a 52v battery (limited to 750w)

So in reality the only 'performance mod' I made according to you was the opensource software. Please explain how that all my problems 'were on me'

I have also done performance mods on pretty much every vehicle I have ever owned including 10 years tracking highly modified cars. I have very realistic expectations and common mechanical sense.

I dont believe I have expressed anything in my post to imply that I had any 'stock warranty' expectations out of my tsdz2. I knew exactly what to expect as the slop issue I experienced was a 'very common issue' people were reporting on endless sphere. I spent months researching all the tsdz2 issues people were having and even wrote a spreadsheet outlining the problems and solutions and post numbers for future reference.

So you can blame it all 'on me' but in reality I am simply reporting common issues that you just choose to ignore. I most certainly agree I got a bad one. That shows QC issues people should consider.

Compared to my Brose ebikes, IMHO, the stock tsdz2 software torque response is horrible. Only did one ride before going with the opensource software which was a pretty dramatic improvement. I made attempts ('failures' as you describe) to make it better but in the end gave it up due to the horrible low pass filter design on the torque sensor output. I never felt it had much response for anything less that 1 crank revolution which seemed to coincide with a youtube video showing the delay in the low pass filter design. This low pass filter design is a hardware issue so it is present with the original software as well. Im guessing your just not as picky as me on torque sensor response. No problems if the response is ok with you but let others share their opinions as well.

Please point out where in my posts I describe using my tsdz2 as a motorbike instead of a bicycle?? I dont even have a throttle. Another silly attempt to discredit me. I can post ride data including human power outputs if you want to go further down this rabbit hole. I record all my rides on my garmin gps devices including wh/mile etc... Perhaps we can compare ride stats to see who is the real cyclist

I have no issues if you like it the way it is stock, more power to you but I do take issue with you saying any improvements over stock 'is not needed' or is 'a failure'. You simply have no experience to back up that claim. Please dont try to discredit people or downplay their experiences just because you disagree. These forums are for everyone to express their ideas/opinions and experiences and for us all to learn from all perspectives.

Sure all motors have issues, I never stated anything to the contrary. One of my Brose motors has bearing slop and has had it since about 2k miles but its pretty minimal and hasnt gotten worse. That motor has 8k miles on it now. I have a BBSHD with about 2500miles on it that has developed some clunking noises which I will likely have to addressed soon.

I am not a tsdz2 hater, I really wanted to like my tsdz2.

Pedaluma is a real fan of the tsdz2 at 36V and 350W. Perhaps that is where the tsdz2 is best suited. I have no issues with that although I have no use for one in that configuration. Most of my riding is at pretty low power levels...around 300watts, but usually the last leg home(when I am tired) is dealing with big headwinds(20mph+) which require alot more power where my current BBSHD and GMAC bikes excel.

 

[PedalUma]

I have found a big difference between the eight-pin and the six-pin. Today I need to convert three motors from eight to six pin by soldering. First I need to trace and map the wires because of a color change I do not have a handle on yet. Levers, a throttle, and a speed sensor will each kill performance. I hope these motors turn out to be okay. I also use 48V, 750W but only six-pin with no speed sensor. I ordered these motors from a new supplier who said they were six-pin but instead sent a giant wire harness converter with them. I rode one bike for a year without a speed sensor because it didn't fit the chain stay. Then one day I figured out a workaround and installed it. That eviscorated the feel of that bike. And immediately I chopped it off. Ahh, so much better.

 

[tomjasz]

I gave away a KHS Smoothie with a TSDZ2 evaluation sample and em3ev battery. I disliked the motor from day one. However it was a life changer for the 70 year old living rough in a boathouse. One mans junk is another’s pride.