Are mid drives just naturally less zippy than hub motors?

[m@Robertson]

HAHA I don't agree , look at this ,mid-drive , this would scorch your dual hub. I would bet money on it . I wish they actually rode it though on video . The controller appeard to not have pedal assist when he got on it.

HAHA yourself. Its one thing to watch a video and its another entirely to know these motors and bikes from experience.

That little bike in the video is powered by a 3kw mini Cyclone kit. They were powered by a 60a Kelly controller that Luna was doing the programming for pre-sale. Want to see another one (I didn't spring for the Luna Tick alloy chainring in that video)? Want to see the instructions on how to install it? They are on the Luna forum. I wrote them. You will see this bike there in the pics.

This was, by the way, October of 2017, which is two months after your video was taken (which I watched at the time, pre-sale. Battery in it was a 52v 12ah Samsung 25R pack). In that video, the motor peaked at 62a. I didn't hear a wattage peak in the vid but mine peaked right at around the same amps. Peak wattage was about 4000w, not the advertised 3000.

So... rather than you watch a video and read it wrong, I can just tell you how they worked.

The Mini Cyclone had very high rpm's which is amply demonstrated by the guy holding it in the air and letting the motor spin it up. But... they are gutless. All horsepower (rpms) and no torque. Apply a load to the motor and it bogs down. To solve that It is essential to downshift at a stop 3+ gears, and then row thru them as you came off the line and get up to speed.

If you tried to run that motor under load without managing throttle - so those 60 amps are only used to make it go forward - it overheated and the controller shut it down. Then you had to sit on the side of the road for 10 minutes while it cooled enough for the controller to let it come back on. Once I learned how to feather the throttle (PAS did not exist) I was fine so long as I stayed off my 12T gear and let the motor keep the rpms up... after ramping up thru the gears. Top speed was about 33-35mph in that next-to-top gear on this bike, bearing in mind my 250 lbs, which were a major limiting factor. Also necessary to stave off overheating during my commute even after feathering the throttle were heat sinks all over the motor, as you can see installed below. These were worth quite a bit. Something like 40 degrees of surface temp but they made the difference internally between a shutdown and a successful arrival at the office from home.

But put all that aside... Cyclones were and are known to taco chainrings and tear chains apart (zoom in on that first pic and look at what kind of chain I used for the primary off the motor). The video you liked so much shows a guy spinning the motor under zero load. But look at the very end of the vid when he tries to ride it. They ended up fixing that as well as they could by the time they started selling them, but bottom line is you cannot watch a motor whiz around with no load and have the slightest clue what it will do with a rider on top.

So... you row thru the gears with that motor. Which was kind of fun as the bike - with no PAS and no display, was kind of like a little crude sports bike all rough around the edges. Remember this was 2017 and there were different expectations of what a DIY bike should be. Just look at all the zip ties I used.

So... THAT is how a hub motor - with sufficient power - beats a mid drive off the line. Hub motors need no shifting. Their acceleration curve is smooth and continuous with no gaps. Mids - even with a gear sensor - need a pause in acceleration to shift, and when they do they have to ramp the power back up. It sounds EXACTLY like a car and it has exactly the same negative effect in a drag race.

 

[m@Robertson]

well zippy cause you haver a ton of power is like saying your motorcycle is zippy compared to my bike.

No it isn't. Thats just prejudice talking.

That bike is almost purely a PAS machine. I pedal that thing from zero to about 28-32 mph and I am working to do it. The bike is geared so pedaling at my preferred cadence derives just a little more speed than the motors can take me to, so I have to bust my ass to get it up past 28, or I can shift up to a bigger cog and pedal easy at 26-28-ish.

Want evidence of that contention? Look at the front chainring. Ever see a ring that big on a fat bike before? More? Look at the derailleur. Thats a short cage derailleur. Why? Because there is a small cluster in the back, which you can also see and which is also pretty much unique for a fatty.

Or rather its almost unique.... Those wheels on the orange bike were taken off of a predecessor whose frame I cracked. Here it is. Single speed so the rear gear was fixed at 16T. To get it geared so I could pedal hard, I worked my way up to the 60T chainring seen below.

These bikes are built for pedaling on entirely flat land, which is where hubs excel. Don't equate speed with motorcycles. One does not follow the other.

 

[SC00CHB00CH]

HAHA yourself. Its one thing to watch a video and its another entirely to know these motors and bikes from experience.

That little bike in the video is powered by a 3kw mini Cyclone kit. They were powered by a 60a Kelly controller that Luna was doing the programming for pre-sale. Want to see another one (I didn't spring for the Luna Tick alloy chainring in that video)? Want to see the instructions on how to install it? They are on the Luna forum. I wrote them. You will see this bike there in the pics.
View attachment 139464
This was, by the way, October of 2017, which is two months after your video was taken (which I watched at the time, pre-sale. Battery in it was a 52v 12ah Samsung 25R pack). In that video, the motor peaked at 62a. I didn't hear a wattage peak in the vid but mine peaked right at around the same amps. Peak wattage was about 4000w, not the advertised 3000.

So... rather than you watch a video and read it wrong, I can just tell you how they worked.

The Mini Cyclone had very high rpm's which is amply demonstrated by the guy holding it in the air and letting the motor spin it up. But... they are gutless. All horsepower (rpms) and no torque. Apply a load to the motor and it bogs down. To solve that It is essential to downshift at a stop 3+ gears, and then row thru them as you came off the line and get up to speed.

If you tried to run that motor under load without managing throttle - so those 60 amps are only used to make it go forward - it overheated and the controller shut it down. Then you had to sit on the side of the road for 10 minutes while it cooled enough for the controller to let it come back on. Once I learned how to feather the throttle (PAS did not exist) I was fine so long as I stayed off my 12T gear and let the motor keep the rpms up... after ramping up thru the gears. Top speed was about 33-35mph in that next-to-top gear on this bike, bearing in mind my 250 lbs, which were a major limiting factor. Also necessary to stave off overheating during my commute even after feathering the throttle were heat sinks all over the motor, as you can see installed below. These were worth quite a bit. Something like 40 degrees of surface temp but they made the difference internally between a shutdown and a successful arrival at the office from home.
View attachment 139466

But put all that aside... Cyclones were and are known to taco chainrings and tear chains apart (zoom in on that first pic and look at what kind of chain I used for the primary off the motor). The video you liked so much shows a guy spinning the motor under zero load. But look at the very end of the vid when he tries to ride it. They ended up fixing that as well as they could by the time they started selling them, but bottom line is you cannot watch a motor whiz around with no load and have the slightest clue what it will do with a rider on top.

So... you row thru the gears with that motor. Which was kind of fun as the bike - with no PAS and no display, was kind of like a little crude sports bike all rough around the edges. Remember this was 2017 and there were different expectations of what a DIY bike should be. Just look at all the zip ties I used.

So... THAT is how a hub motor - with sufficient power - beats a mid drive off the line. Hub motors need no shifting. Their acceleration curve is smooth and continuous with no gaps. Mids - even with a gear sensor - need a pause in acceleration to shift, and when they do they have to ramp the power back up. It sounds EXACTLY like a car and it has exactly the same negative effect in a drag race.

My bike had 600+ miles on it with a mid-drive and did that spinning tire thing in the video and when I got on it under load. It would haul a$$ off the line . I don't need to change gears if needed. In fact I could make a one gear version with a top speed of 20-25mph. Right now it's geared for top speed and gets to 36mph with a 220lb rider. If you ever want to visit Asheville , come to the mountains bring your dual hub and we'll race around and settle it once and for all.
I'll gear my bike with just one gear only with a 28t front and I'll experiment with other gears. EVERY single person that has ridden this bike said "wow it's fast" and not just "top speed fast" because the tech at the bike shop rode it in power assist level 5 in the Asheville Bike Co. parking lot and he was like whoa this is almost too fast , he never got to top speed. I have it set for 9 levels of power assist. He was in power assist 5.

Some of your knowledge around 'mid-drives' is suspicious , just saying. This bike in the picture will break your legs if you slam the throttle while at a standstill. It will throw you off of it like a horse. Doesn't matter the gear its in. In fact the LUNA battery on the frame helped with it throwing up the front wheel. You can install mid-drives on one speed bikes and they'll be just as zippy as hub motors. NO SHIFTING REQUIRED.

At 40lbs and 120nm of torque ,come on man you can't deny the facts. All of that torque is instantaneous from a stand still.

This video by a hub-drive and mid-drive seller should settle all debates , he sells both types and has no bias.

 

[linklemming]

SolarCabin? ...Im just speculating based on your google skills.

That looks to be a BBS02? What Size front sprocket is that? How about the rear?

Easy enough to put all the info into the Grin Simulator (which has BBS02 and BBSHD motors)

 

[SC00CHB00CH]

SolarCabin? ...Im just speculating based on your google skills.

That looks to be a BBS02? What Size front sprocket is that? How about the rear?

Easy enough to put all the info into the Grin Simulator (which has BBS02 and BBSHD motors)

Solar Cabin? haha I wish. It's a 4000 sqft house.

Right now is a Lekkie 52T in the front but I have a 28T lekkie I can put on it as well. The 28T is for super fast hill runs. It's pushing 1280 watts peak and is a 750 watt BBS02 running a 52V battery.

The rear cassette is a 7 speed shimano 11teeth is the smallest and the largest is a 32teeth. I do have an old stock mega-range cassette I got from Japan it has a 34 teeth sprocket. But right now the chain line is dialed is so I don't get torque slippage on the smallest cog. That's the biggest problem was putting 120nm of torque on a 11 tooth cog it would slip. But now it's solid I had to use some BBS02 spacers for the Lekkie chainring. Now it shifts smooth under every gear , no gear slips under high load and torque.

 

[m@Robertson]

You're deflecting: You were unlucky enough to try and BS us with that Cyclone video, and it turns out I just happen to already have built one and know them inside and out. But even if I didn't, all I had to do was watch the video long enough to see the guy try to actually ride it and oh yeah oops it goes slow with a person on it. So lets not forget you missed that boat completely.

Can your little bike run fast? Sure I bet it can. It has little wheels and little wheels have a torque advantage over full sized ones. Also you are obviously running it on the biggest cog in the back, and you have a big chainring in the front. Thats a formula that apparently has let the bike survive where most others won't. But... its a one-trick wonder. And its just a little BBS02. You don't have to look far to find why those motors are not meant to be used on higher powered setups and high performance. They die. Mostly the controllers fry although they have been beefed up in recent years; particularly the ones from Luna and Cali Ebike.

The question is not can your bike go faster than some other bike with a hub. Its can your bike go faster with a hub in the back, or a mid in the middle? All things must remain equal. You put that poor little BBS02 in a full size bike and its not going to yield the same results. The wheel size alone is going to write that story. You'll be the latest in a long long line of owners who find out why that motor was superseded by the BBSHD. From the sound of it you are only into it for 600 or so miles. Come back when you have 6000 on. It sounds like you are in the early stages of learning how to build bikes. You've got a ways to go yet.

BTW... we aren't talking about mountains even though you've tried to move the goalposts as if we are. The question in this thread is what is faster off the line in a drag race? Thats a narrow topic that has nothing to do with mountains or whatever. Going up a mountainside, mids rule. Different subject.

And since you're new here, you don't apparently know I am a mid drive guy, and my hub builds are in the past. I built this one back in the Spring. 1750w peak. 160 Nm. 30 amps. New production (special private order) Wolf pack in 52v, 13.5ah size. Acceleration and top speed from the world of reality that we live in. No fairy tales. No fantasies. And its a BBSHD that is going to survive for the long haul.

SolarCabin? ...Im just speculating based on your google skills.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. @SC00CHB00CH what that is a reference to is a crank user that made all sorts of nonsense claims before he picked up his toys and ran off.

That looks to be a BBS02? What Size front sprocket is that? How about the rear?

A 52T ring, which is usually too big because even on a BBSHD it bogs the motor. Common knowledge. But if you run an edge case like little 20" wheels and the biggest cog in back you can keep the Bad Things from happening. I have one on my Bullitt and it is there cuz I keep it 3 cogs in at minimum for just the right cadence mix. His is of course the light duty version since its on a BBS02.

Easy enough to put all the info into the Grin Simulator (which has BBS02 and BBSHD motors)

shhh.

 

[SC00CHB00CH]

You're deflecting: You were unlucky enough to try and BS us with that Cyclone video, and it turns out I just happen to already have built one and know them inside and out. But even if I didn't, all I had to do was watch the video long enough to see the guy try to actually ride it and oh yeah oops it goes slow with a person on it. So lets not forget you missed that boat completely.

Can your little bike run fast? Sure I bet it can. It has little wheels and little wheels have a torque advantage over full sized ones. Also you are obviously running it on the biggest cog in the back, and you have a big chainring in the front. Thats a formula that apparently has let the bike survive where most others won't. But... its a one-trick wonder. And its just a little BBS02. You don't have to look far to find why those motors are not meant to be used on higher powered setups and high performance. They die. Mostly the controllers fry although they have been beefed up in recent years; particularly the ones from Luna and Cali Ebike.

The question is not can your bike go faster than some other bike with a hub. Its can your bike go faster with a hub in the back, or a mid in the middle? All things must remain equal. You put that poor little BBS02 in a full size bike and its not going to yield the same results. The wheel size alone is going to write that story. You'll be the latest in a long long line of owners who find out why that motor was superseded by the BBSHD. From the sound of it you are only into it for 600 or so miles. Come back when you have 6000 on. It sounds like you are in the early stages of learning how to build bikes. You've got a ways to go yet.

BTW... we aren't talking about mountains even though you've tried to move the goalposts as if we are. The question in this thread is what is faster off the line in a drag race? Thats a narrow topic that has nothing to do with mountains or whatever. Going up a mountainside, mids rule. Different subject.

And since you're new here, you don't apparently know I am a mid drive guy, and my hub builds are in the past. I built this one back in the Spring. 1750w peak. 160 Nm. 30 amps. New production (special private order) Wolf pack in 52v, 13.5ah size. Acceleration and top speed from the world of reality that we live in. No fairy tales. No fantasies. And its a BBSHD that is going to survive for the long haul.

View attachment 139503


Yeah I was thinking the same thing. @SC00CHB00CH what that is a reference to is a crank user that made all sorts of nonsense claims before he picked up his toys and ran off.

A 52T ring, which is usually too big because even on a BBSHD it bogs the motor. Common knowledge. But if you run an edge case like little 20" wheels and the biggest cog in back you can keep the Bad Things from happening. I have one on my Bullitt and it is there cuz I keep it 3 cogs in at minimum for just the right cadence mix. His is of course the light duty version since its on a BBS02.

View attachment 139504

shhh.

Zero issues with my 52teeth so far. The entire reason I used a BBS02 on a light bike was exactly that. Because the BBS02 was a smaller motor than the BBSHD and less robust. So far no overheating issues. The motor was repacked with Mobile 1 grease. As long as I don't use the rear 11 tooth cassette to climb hills , the 52 teeth front chain ring doesn't cause issues at all. The SAVA carbon fiber donor bike ships with a 53 teeth.
The luna cyclone video , the bike DID NOT BOG DOWN UNDER LOAD , the controller was off when he got on it. The fact that you keep bringing that up surprises me. Maybe you're pulling all these mid-drive photos off the web and claiming you built them.
You can totally build one speed mid-drive that will smoke all day long and twice on Sunday.
The way you talk about mid-drives is very suspicious to me it means you possibly don't own them you don't drive them and I believe your full of horsesh%^.
Just my 2 cents.


You wouldn't believe the places that little bike has been. Nearly every trail in here in Asheville. This little cutesy-tootsie unassuming little bike will make sure you keep your orthopedic surgeon on speed dial.
Again I'm gonna say it real slow , 120nm of torque 1280 watts peak , 52V , 40lb bike. I mean is it really this hard to you "mid-drive" building professionals to not understand?
36 miles per hour top speed on a pure flat road , throttle only and yes it can be ZIPPY in ALL of the gears. NOT JUST TOP speed
It's zippity , zip , zip in all the zips from the zipperson clan in zippersonville , zippersota , just north of zipper town and zippity do dah day next to zippity lake and ziperton community located in the province of zipperstonvilleberg.

 

[linklemming]

Here is a Grin Motor Simulator anybody can play with. https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h...t_b=PR&wheel_b=20i&mass_b=140&hp_b=0&axis=mph

I picked a 52t front sprocket and rear sprocket to allow mid 20mph (per scoochbooch's earlier post).

If you use your mouse to move the vertical dashed lines in the graph, you can see the acceleration at different speeds.

For this example, the BBS02 has an advantage up to around 7mph and then the GMAC takes over. Note the wheel torque of the BBS02....its not 120nm

This comparison is being VERY generous to the BBS02 as it is using a phaserunner motor controller which is WAY better than the motor controller on the BBS02 (i,e battery amps are limited to 25 vs 40 on this chart)

 

[SC00CHB00CH]

Here is a Grin Motor Simulator anybody can play with. https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h...t_b=PR&wheel_b=20i&mass_b=140&hp_b=0&axis=mph

I picked a 52t front sprocket and rear sprocket to allow mid 20mph (per scoochbooch's earlier post).

If you use your mouse to move the vertical dashed lines in the graph, you can see the acceleration at different speeds.

For this example, the BBS02 has an advantage up to around 7mph and then the GMAC takes over. Note the wheel torque of the BBS02....its not 120nm

This comparison is being VERY generous to the BBS02 as it is using a phaserunner motor controller which is WAY better than the motor controller on the BBS02 (i,e battery amps are limited to 25 vs 40 on this chart)

View attachment 139509

It has the controller from LUNA on it . I believe it's 1300 watts max and running 52v battery.
Now try the 28tooth front chain ring and different rear cogs.

I would never start from a stop in the 16 tooth cog and a 52t front that's too much stress on the motor. THAT'S THE ENTIRE REASON MOST BIKE RETAILERS SELL HUB DRIVES , they're idiot proof.

Try a 52 and 28 tooth front and 32-34 rear with 20inch tires.
The BBS02 is rated for a max current of 25A which in turn can develop peak power up 1,470 Watts of power when paired with a 52V battery (58.8 V x 25 Amp).
The BBS02 motor cranks out 120 N.M of torque.

Difference between BBS02/ BBS02B & BBSHD/ BBS03 | BafangUSAdirect Help Center

What is the difference between the 750w BBS02 and the 1000w BBSHD motors?

intercom.help

 

[linklemming]

It has the controller from LUNA on it . I believe it's 1300 watts max and running 52v battery.
Now try the 28tooth front chain ring and different rear cogs.

I would never start from a stop in the 16 tooth cog and a 52t front that's too much stress on the motor. THAT'S THE ENTIRE REASON MOST BIKE RETAILERS SELL HUB DRIVES , they're idiot proof.

Try a 52 and 28 tooth front and 32-34 rear with 20inch tires.
The BBS02 is rated for a max current of 25A which in turn can develop peak power up 1,470 Watts of power when paired with a 52V battery (58.8 V x 25 Amp).
The BBS02 motor cranks out 120 N.M of torque.

Difference between BBS02/ BBS02B & BBSHD/ BBS03 | BafangUSAdirect Help Center

What is the difference between the 750w BBS02 and the 1000w BBSHD motors?

intercom.help

I can guarantee you that the phaserunner is more powerful than the luna controller.

Wow, you have a 52V battery that puts out 58.8V at 25amp. I have a wolf battery as well and it doesnt do that, Did you have to pay extra for that?

I thought you stated above "NO SHIFTING", you also claimed if you geared for mid 20mph, you would blow away a dual hub drive (note that I am using a single hub drive for this comparison)

Cant go below 30t in the front, with a 30t, the BBS02 starts to loose at 10mph

 

[SC00CHB00CH]

I can guarantee you that the phaserunner is more powerful than the luna controller.

Wow, you have a 52V battery that puts out 58.8V at 25amp. I have a wolf battery as well and it doesnt do that, Did you have to pay extra for that?

I thought you stated above "NO SHIFTING", you also claimed if you geared for mid 20mph, you would blow away a dual hub drive (note that I am using a single hub drive for this comparison)

Cant go below 30t in the front, with a 30t, the BBS02 starts to loose at 10mph
View attachment 139523

So the mid-drive loses after 10mph , which was the entire argument , the mid-drive was faster in a 10mph sprint across the road. Wasn't that the original argument?
What cells is your wolf battery , I have the LG cells and after a full charge the 750c display shows 58.6v. Not sure how accurate the 750c is but I've actually re-plugged it in after a 100% charge and got close to 60.v on the display reading, it made me nervous so I unplugged the charger. They're LG 18650 Cells I believe.

They have a 13.5 ah variant and a 12ah variant of the Wolf battery. I have the 13.5 ah version. The LG M-J1 is a newer cell that offer both the highest energy density and fairly good continuous discharge.

 

[linklemming]

So the mid-drive loses after 10mph , which was the entire argument , the mid-drive was faster in a 10mph sprint across the road. Wasn't that the original argument?
What cells is your wolf battery , I have the LG cells and after a full charge the 750c display shows 58.6v. Not sure how accurate the 750c is but I've actually re-plugged it in after a 100% charge and got close to 60.v on the display reading, it made me nervous so I unplugged the charger. They're LG 18650 Cells I believe.

They have a 13.5 ah variant and a 12ah variant of the Wolf battery. I have the 13.5 ah version. The LG M-J1 is a newer cell that offer both the highest energy density and fairly good continuous discharge.

Im not sure what your argument has been, you keep on changing the goalpost. If its that you will win in a 0-10mph dragrace (compared to a single hub motor) with a one speed mid-drive which tops out at 15.2mph, congrats....zip-a-dee-doo-dah. You did actually claim you would beat a dual motor. If m@Robertson posts his motor/controller setup maybe we can validate your claim using the Grin Simulator

You did actually claim in post #184 that you could build a mid 20mph one speed mid drive...that would be a 52t front chainring and 16t rear sprocket. When I post this setup, you claim you would never use it.

Once again, the phaserunner is way ahead of the luna with a battery current limit of 40A, and phase current limits reaching 100A, so the grin simulator is being very generous to the BBS02. If I limit the battery current to 25A, the BBS02 starts loosing at 6mph so who know what the 0-10mph outcome will be. Please post the actual dragrace parameters

I am using the 12ah 30Q variant with which has lower IR than the LG J1 (26mohm vs 40mohm) so it has less voltage loss than your battery. Your claim of 58.8V at 25A would require a battery with zero IR which doesnt exist.

 

[AHicks]

All numbers, no experience. IMHO, no point arguing further.

 

[SC00CHB00CH]

Why should anyone care? (answer: ego. Nothing more)

But your rea-hub has gears I'm sure they work right?

Im not sure what your argument has been, you keep on changing the goalpost. If its that you will win in a 0-10mph dragrace (compared to a single hub motor) with a one speed mid-drive which tops out at 15.2mph, congrats....zip-a-dee-doo-dah. You did actually claim you would beat a dual motor. If m@Robertson posts his motor/controller setup maybe we can validate your claim using the Grin Simulator

You did actually claim in post #184 that you could build a mid 20mph one speed mid drive...that would be a 52t front chainring and 16t rear sprocket. When I post this setup, you claim you would never use it.

Once again, the phaserunner is way ahead of the luna with a battery current limit of 40A, and phase current limits reaching 100A, so the grin simulator is being very generous to the BBS02. If I limit the battery current to 25A, the BBS02 starts loosing at 6mph so who know what the 0-10mph outcome will be. Please post the actual dragrace parameters

I am using the 12ah 30Q variant with which has lower IR than the LG J1 (26mohm vs 40mohm) so it has less voltage loss than your battery. Your claim of 58.8V at 25A would require a battery with zero IR which doesnt exist.

POST #184 right here ,nothing about a 52t teeth front and 16teeth rear you're putting words into my mouth. I said "I'd experiment with a 28teeth front and experiment with the rear cog size.


When I charge my battery to full the reading on the 750c display says "58.6v" , whether or not that's accurate , not sure but it clearly says 58.6v on a freshly charged battery. Luna's charger also shows that it cuts charging at 58.8volts to protect the battery.

 

[linklemming]

But your rea-hub has gears I'm sure they work right?

POST #184 right here ,nothing about a 52t teeth front and 16teeth rear you're putting words into my mouth. I said "I'd experiment with a 28teeth front and experiment with the rear cog size.

Well yes, I did put words in your mouth because you were speaking gibberish. Doesnt mater what actual gears we pick as long as the overall ratio is equivalent.

If you pick a 28t front, with an 11 tooth rear, max speed will be 19.3mph. You said 20-25mph...I guess thats close enough but I was assuming 25mph.

With that combination the BBS02 (with more powerful phaserunner which you dont have) is faster to 11.6mph

When I charge my battery to full the reading on the 750c display says "58.6v" , whether or not that's accurate , not sure but it clearly says 58.6v on a freshly charged battery. Luna's charger also shows that it cuts charging at 58.8volts to protect the battery.

You dont seem to understand what battery Internal Resistance is, please use your awesome google skills to research.

Im working on a dual hub motor grin simulation....stay tuned

 

[linklemming]

Here is a dual Hub Motor Simulation https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h...&mass_b=140&hp_b=0&axis=mph&add=true&blue=Lbs

Note the acceleration at 5mph

Compared to the Zippiest zipster to zip

 

[Jason Knight]

No it isn't. Thats just prejudice talking.

Which is why it seems weird -- but entirely expected -- the crazy nonsensical fairy-tale nonsense mid-drive fanboys seem to outright fabricate in their attempts to throw shade on hubs.

Or rather its almost unique.... Th Single speed so the rear gear was fixed at 16T. To get it geared so I could pedal hard, I worked my way up to the 60T chainring

Which ends up surprisingly weaksauce at 1:3.75... It's all about ratios and a 60 means nothing with a fat-ass 16 rear. Which makes me feel out of touch, don't think I've seen a single speed with more than 14 rear since smaller rear + smaller front == less material == cheaper to manufacture.

Also though as a single speed that has to be an absolute pig to pedal if you run the battery dry accidentally or have a failure that takes the motor our of the equation. That's where I screwed up re-gearing mine when I added the 53 tooth chainring but keeping the stock 12..32 cassette. I really didn't think about the low end, and whilst an 11..36 only gets me 1:1.47 vs the 53:32 == 1:1.66, that's the difference between "suffering" and "Yeah, I got this."

And at the high end I might "only" have a 53 on the front of mine...

But with the smallest an 11 that works out to 1:4.82, a good deal more than you're getting out of that 60 tooth. Even with the 12 it was 1:4.12, higher than your big 60 is doing.

It's all about your ratios. I'm still arguing with myself over swapping the largest cog for a 40 just to make unpowered travel less of a headache... though that means I'd have to add a hanger extension as to support the 36 I've got the B screw all the way in.

 

[SC00CHB00CH]

It was a quote from this link I wasn't talking about my bike. It was a reference to the BBS02 in general. ALL I was saying about my bike is what the display said on the 750c was 58.6v.

"If you look closely the first difference is the power, the BBS02 is rated for a max current of 25A which in turn can develop peak power up 1,470 Watts of power when paired with a 52V battery (58.8 V x 25 Amp). While the BBSHD is rated for a max current of 30A which in turn can develop peak power up to 1,764 Watts of power when paired with a 52V battery (58.8 V x 30 Amp)." -QUOTE from link , not my words

on my OP this link was in reference to the quote then you went off on a tangent how I claimed my bike was this or that amps

Difference between BBS02/ BBS02B & BBSHD/ BBS03 | BafangUSAdirect Help Center

What is the difference between the 750w BBS02 and the 1000w BBSHD motors?

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At the end of the day I like rear hub drives but I can't pretend they use the gears of the rear cassette. Pretty much the foundation of the argument that started this mess. Both bike styles have pros and cons. Am I biased towards mid-drives ? Absolutely yes. I live in nothing but hills and need hill climbing abilities. Necessity and all that. I apologize if I had offended anyone and wish the all the best on your bike adventures.


This will likely be my next e bike. There is a gentlemen on here selling his and I'm to pick it up Dec 1st. Although it's tempting to buy one now as they're back in stock at Luna. For the price to performance I don't think I could get close to this price build with a mid-drive , unless I had a free donor bike.

 

[m@Robertson]

Which is why it seems weird -- but entirely expected -- the crazy nonsensical fairy-tale nonsense mid-drive fanboys seem to outright fabricate in their attempts to throw shade on hubs.

There is an inherent prejudice against speed from many ebike riders. I put it down to the enormous difference in use between leisure/pleasure use riders and riders who use bikes for utility - the bike has a job. If the bike has a job, and it has to always work, and it has to be convenient, and the words 'auto replacement' apply, then there is no relaxation. there is no sightseeing. The ebike has to get from Point A to Point B at a speed at least comparable to that of an automobile. Or at minimum fast enough that the loss of speed vs. an automobile is livable.

Usually speed equates to thumb throttling. The Super 73 crowd for instance. But what people who are judging don't take into account is you can build a bike to go fast and tailor it specifically so it can give you hard exercise.
I remember the 60x16 achieving the speed on this chart at about 80 rpm cadence. Plain/simple I can't sustain 90. I do gps speedo readings specifically cuz the displays are never quite right; and really, this calculator is never perfect either. I bet my 175mm crankarms on that bike had something to do with the equation as well.

Which ends up surprisingly weaksauce at 1:3.75... It's all about ratios and a 60 means nothing with a fat-ass 16 rear. Which makes me feel out of touch, don't think I've seen a single speed with more than 14 rear since smaller rear + smaller front == less material == cheaper to manufacture.

It means less. Not nothing. See chart above. Also that bike was built years ago, before Bafang released the cassette version of the G060 motor. So the only option on a frame built for the single speed freewheel version of that motor was... a singlespeed freewheel. On a British/standard thread freewheel, the smallest you can get without buying garbage is 16T (the Shimano MX16 being the best unless you want to really spend and get one from White Industries). Metric BMX single freewheels go down to 14 but Bafang doesn't use metric sizing. And if you toss quality out the window and use the Chinesium wheels that extend/hang out over the body, this is what you can get.

And... the orange bike uses the same wheels as the black bike, but it is a 190mm frame. I removed the 165mm freewheel motor core and replaced it with the cassette version, which allowed me to put on a SRAM 9 spd cluster. A spacer on the brake side let the brakes fit the original motor casing.

Also though as a single speed that has to be an absolute pig to pedal if you run the battery dry accidentally

I'm sure any ebike is. I've never run out of battery power, ever. Part of owning an ebike is charging it, and reading the display from time to time. And oftentimes I mount a weatherproof charger on the bike and can charge at a park, like here. Same orange bike. Different tires and the charger has been added.

It's all about your ratios. I'm still arguing with myself over swapping the largest cog for a 40 just to make unpowered travel less of a headache... though that means I'd have to add a hanger extension as to support the 36 I've got the B screw all the way in.

Solve the problem differently. Bigger battery. Add an inexpensive, weatherproof charger. Or both. Bikes like these have no business even trying to be run unpowered. Weatherproof chargers are easy to mount on a front rack. Or put into a pouch and toss into a pannier.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

After all this heat and light, still not sure if hub drives are zippier than mid-drives. But one thing I do know: My 500W hub drive's pretty darn zippy.

So zippy, in fact, that the dealer insisted that I buy a helmet with a drag chute.

Just sayin'.