Apples to Apples? Bosch vs. Bafang Ultra

[Stefan Mikes]

John: The Giant is made for conquering mountains. It has proper gearing and geometry. The 625 Wh battery in Giant is a lot -- provided you wouldn't ride in the EXTRA POWER mode for the whole time. Bear in mind you would descent with the motor off (the easiest is not to pedal, or switch to OFF).

Yet I don't want to talk in vain. If you could demo ride the Giant (even a 2020 model but the Pro version), you would get convinced the best. All in all, I'm not throwing my 2020 Trance E+ under the bus just because the X has been released


On a ride today.

 

[Haystacks]

Just leaving this here for context and posterity Fat bikes; Monsters? Mobile couches? Or a necessary tool?

 

[Alaskan]

Both the Yamaha and the Giant should be enough to get you up that mountain, depending on how much effort you are able to contribute to the project. With pedal assist a lower spec motor uses the gearing along with you to help you get there. It uses way less energy in doing so, again because it is using the leverage of your bike's drive train. The key to the answer to your question is what level of effort can you and do you want to provide. As a 70 year old guy who weighs 215 lbs. all the riding you describe is a cake walk, well within any 250 watt, 65+ Newton meter, mid drive bike's capability with me on top of it pedaling.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Both the Yamaha and the Giant should be enough to get you up that mountain, depending on how much effort you are able to contribute to the project. With pedal assist a lower spec motor uses the gearing along with you to help you get there. It uses way less energy in doing so, again because it is using the leverage of your bike's drive train. The key to the answer to your question is what level of effort can you and do you want to provide. As a 70 year old guy who weighs 215 lbs. all the riding you describe is a cake walk, well within any 250 watt, 65+ Newton meter, mid drive bike's capability with me on top of it pedaling.

Add to it Richard, your e-bike is not an e-MTB, and you can still do that!

 

[John Thompson]

Well I can tell you that the ride I went on last weekend wasn't a cake walk on my current bike, and I don't know why it would be on the Giant. But I also weigh about 30 pounds more than you, too.

 

[Alaskan]

Well I can tell you that the ride I went on last weekend wasn't a cake walk on my current bike, and I don't know why it would be on the Giant. But I also weigh about 30 pounds more than you, too.

So that indicates that a modestly powered mid drive would be very doable for your purposes and it will give you more range per watt yours and the bikes. I would guess to handicap for the weight difference would take an 80 miles range down to 65 or so. Bosch has a really cool range assistant that lets you plug in all the variable; rider, weather, bike in detail over the miles I have consistently found it weirdly accurate. I can say how applicable it would be to other than Bosch equipped bikes.

eBike range calculator for Bosch drive systems - Bosch eBike - Bosch eBike Systems

Use the eBike range calculator for Bosch drive systems to plan out your next ride.

www.bosch-ebike.com

 

[fooferdoggie]

So that indicates that a modestly powered mid drive would be very doable for your purposes and it will give you more range per watt yours and the bikes. I would guess to handicap for the weight difference would take an 80 miles range down to 65 or so. Bosch has a really cool range assistant that lets you plug in all the variable; rider, weather, bike in detail over the miles I have consistently found it weirdly accurate. I can say how applicable it would be to other than Bosch equipped bikes.

eBike range calculator for Bosch drive systems - Bosch eBike - Bosch eBike Systems

Use the eBike range calculator for Bosch drive systems to plan out your next ride.

www.bosch-ebike.com

the built in calulator works pretty well as long and the terrain does no change all over the place. the one time I drained the battery I had about 1.5 miles left after I hit zero.

 

[Alaskan]

the built in calulator works pretty well as long and the terrain does no change all over the place. the one time I drained the battery I had about 1.5 miles left after I hit zero.

Yup, it's an important factor in range.

 

[Sierratim]

Further queries to ponder: is the 80 nm offered via the Yamaha motor on the Giant enough to get my biggish self up the mountain, as opposed to the 160 nm I have on my Ultra-powered rig now? And will doing so sap its 650wh battery faster than the 840wh battery I have now? In other words, will the efficiencies of a more refined motor and a lighter bike make up for less power and less battery life/range? Probably would have to A/B test it ... take that Giant, for example, up the same trail I went on Sunday and see how it does:

Bowman Mountain South Summit

Follow a series of logging roads to the south summit of Bowman Mountain for unparalleled views of The Sisters.

www.alltrails.com

John, I had hoped my earlier post to your similar query in anothe r tnread shed some light on this. No?

 

[onlineaddy]

In other words, will the efficiencies of a more refined motor and a lighter bike make up for less power and less battery life/range? Probably would have to A/B test it ...

That would be the best thing to do: try it yourself to see how it works for you in your terrain. Only then would you be able to find your answer, instead of anyone else’s opinion. Good luck, John.

 

[ElevenAD]

So, if I'm not riding an under powered ,over priced bike , it's a Motor Scooter ? Try riding a Bosch powered fat bike and then one with the Bafang Ultra. 9 out of 10 will choose the Bafang. Especially, if it is dialed in by Roshan .

i think there going to choose the bafang whether its dialed in by Ro or not, big difference in power! one thing Bafang generally do great is power,
this Bafang 600 Motor is smaller than an Ultra but you can still see the huge difference in power compared to this Levo.

you want raw climbing power,you buy a Bafang, you want a refined riding experience you buy Bosch/Brose/Yamaha etc

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I can say how applicable it would be to other than Bosch equipped bikes.

It might be interesting Specialized e-bikes sport the Smart Control in the Mission Control app (that can be connected to the bike such as Levo, Kenevo, Vado, Como and all the SL e-bikes for the whole ride duration -- even if the motor could be occasionally switched off -- the app will reconnect). The rider can input planned ride distance, expected elevation gain, and the battery % remaining after the ride. Smart Control will continuously adjust the assistance. Of course, that works the best with 604 or 700 Wh Specialized batteries (with smaller batteries, the assistance could be too low).

With Giant Trance E+ e-bikes, the estimated ride range is given too optimistically, and I do not use the AUTO mode since it provides too much of assistance at the cost of the range. The user can precisely define the assistance levels through an app to adjust the support and range as needed. I can see the 2021 Trance X comes with the new electronics that looks very promising, especially after Giant would release their long-awaited RideControl 2 app.

 

[John Thompson]

John, I had hoped my earlier post to your similar query in anothe r tnread shed some light on this. No?

Somewhat, Yes Tim.

 

[markybolton]

You really need to ride both. I haven't ridden an Ultra powered ebike, but I just purchased a Cannondale Topstone Lefty 3, with the Bosch Gen 4 motor (85Nm of torque).
So far I haven't done too much trail riding, but I have done a few steeper climbs and the Gen 4 has more than enough power.

Which Bosch motor do you have? I have been looking at them but the reviews I have been reading says it has 75Nm Performance Speed Line but then I saw a article said it has a Bosch CX with 85Nm that is a speed pedelec? Also can you put a rack on it? How do you like it? Can you put a range extender on it?

 

[fooferdoggie]

Which Bosch motor do you have? I have been looking at them but the reviews I have been reading says it has 75Nm Performance Speed Line but then I saw a article said it has a Bosch CX with 85Nm that is a speed pedelec? Also can you put a rack on it? How do you like it? Can you put a range extender on it?

I think the last update got it to 85.

 

[TForan]

you want raw climbing power,you buy a Bafang, you want a refined riding experience you buy Bosch/Brose/Yamaha etc

Not true. My Ultra is dead quiet and smooth as can be. I rode a Bosch the other day and besides being weak sauce , it was quite noisy . So much opining here on bikes people haven't ridden.

 

[McCorby]

Not true. My Ultra is dead quiet and smooth as can be. I rode a Bosch the other day and besides being weak sauce , it was quite noisy . So much opining here on bikes people haven't ridden.

I’ve ridden both, and to me the “big 4” have much more refined riding characteristics and are typically much lighter.

I think this is why the major “premium” bike manufacturers don’t use them at this time. Some will argue that they don’t due to European regulations regarding power output, but they could always de-tune them if it was worth the effort. For example, Orbea has done this with the new Shimano EP-8 motor for one of their new emtbs.

 

[webcurl]

You really need to ride both. I haven't ridden an Ultra powered ebike, but I just purchased a Cannondale Topstone Lefty 3, with the Bosch Gen 4 motor (85Nm of torque).
So far I haven't done too much trail riding, but I have done a few steeper climbs and the Gen 4 has more than enough power.

Surprising you can keep the front wheel on the ground with that combo

 

[MartsEbike]

I'd say the difference isn't so much the bike - its you. Are you an Apple or are you an Orange.

When I first rode a 250w (legal limit in UK) bike I wasn't very impressed with it, especially for the price, it felt underpowered and the 15.5mph limit just killed all the excitement. For me, the minimum I really want is 1000w (unrestricted). Some people here buy a bike and then spend the entire time in ECO mode, telling you about the distances they covered... but to me this complete defies the point of having the extra power. I want to know how far it goes on MAX power, not Eco mode.

I just want something fundamentally different to many other riders here... I don't ride for hours on end doing tours/sightseeing... I want a quick blast at speed, mostly off-road, for a thrill and adrenaline hit Its horses for courses.

Anyways, I'd say go to a bike shop and try it... You might settle for a little less power if you really like the bike in other ways. Its always a compromise.

 

[TForan]

I’ve ridden both, and to me the “big 4” have much more refined riding characteristics and are typically much lighter.

I think this is why the major “premium” bike manufacturers don’t use them at this time. Some will argue that they don’t due to European regulations regarding power output, but they could always de-tune them if it was worth the effort. For example, Orbea has done this with the new Shimano EP-8 motor for one of their new emtbs.

Fair enough, which Ultra powered bike did you ride ?