Anybody else go from a rear hub motor to mid drive?

[pmcdonald]

Has anybody else came here from a rear hub bike and switch to a mid drive?

Yeah, BH Dapu hub motor to Giant Yamaha mid drive.

The BH gave me no end of errors, it overheated on long climbs, it cut out when riding across busy intersections (yoikes!), and flashed various errors on most rides.

To date the mid drive has been flawless. (No doubt now I've written that it'll die tomorrow.)

The hub felt like an artificial push, the mid drive feels more integrated. Assist-wise I had no issues with the hub, but I feel the mid drive is better for my body. I have to work in unison a little more with it. I'm sticking with that flavour for now. Both have their place.

 

[kmccune]

I’m considering going the other way....from mid drive to rear hub drive

Nothing wrong with that, one thing I have noticed reading and watching the builds is that it's really not that hard to convert a good "old generation" bike to a mid drive. Fascinating watching "RevBecca" doing it and I think She is pretty hot( Love Gals that can do things like that)
My experience with a heavy "cruiser" taught me a good geared Hub motor will move you smartly down the road, the only disappointment was on an upgrade I couldn't get but around 26 mph when some German Sheps looked like they were going to pursue.
To each their own, they all have a place.

 

[AHicks]

For my ebike use case it’s all about total cost of ownership going forward
I commute 80km/day on my current E8000 mid drive which has done 40,000+km, and to date has been trouble free
This distance is very high for a mid drive, and I’m concerned its probably getting close to eventually failing or will start to have reliability issues

With this in mind I recently did a service on the drive unit as it is out of warranty
The inside was as clean as the day it was assembled with no signs of water ingress or rust
The bearings still felt smooth and showed no signs of wear, so all I did was apply new grease to the gearing and closed it up again

My worry is if it eventually does fail, repairing it is not an option as Shimano will not sell spare parts direct, and only want to sell you a new drive unit (currently nil stock in Australia) which retails anywhere from AUD1,600 - AUD1,800.
When I bought the ebike new in 2018 for AUD3,500, I was told at that time a new drive unit was approx AUD800

Based on the info I have found online (including from the good folks here at EBR) hub motors are a simple design, cheap to buy and maintain, and have a good reputation for high speed trouble free operation on relatively flat terrain which makes up 90% of my commute route

As I have a couple of non power assisted bikes in my collection, I’ve decided to take out some insurance and use one as a host bike for a hub drive kit, of which I can readily get spares for and maintain myself

I don’t know which hub kit I will get as yet, and I’m still researching
Open to any suggestions

The Shengyi SX and the GMAC kits both from Grin look promising and have made it to my short list
My only concern with either motor is that Grin don’t sell spare gear sets and I can’t find anyone else who does

Makes perfect sense! I'm left wondering though, if you've considered a direct drive? I'm a BIG geared hub fan (LOVE my MAC 12t!), but direct drives are just about the ultimate in simplicity/longevity. Been there too. For use on a level commute, something like that should work really well unless there's a lot of stop and go involved. A 1500w direct drive is pretty peppy once you get it moving. They'll never be as sporty as a gear drive, but between 10 and 20 mph they're not bad. Kinda like an accelerating a diesel. The longer you stay into the throttle, the faster it goes! If considering this route, I would look for a low speed wind to maximize low speed torque. The high speed winds are about top end, like speeds over 30mph, where they eat huge amounts of power due to wind resistance. Perfect winding count wold top out at something under 30mph (to maximise low speed torque). I understand Leaf will build what you ask for as far as speed is concerned. Guessing there are others as well.

I don't know what's going on with MAC. For whatever reason, it would seem the only motors that are available are the fancy GMAC's from Grin. The conventional MAC motor sources have dried up. Makes no sense, unless Grin is buying up everything MAC can make for use on their GMAC conversions - which uses many of the same parts the regular MAC uses. I did see that Grin is opening a new bigger facility. Looking forward to further developments from those folks.

 

[AHicks]

Yeah, BH Dapu hub motor to Giant Yamaha mid drive.

The BH gave me no end of errors, it overheated on long climbs, it cut out when riding across busy intersections (yoikes!), and flashed various errors on most rides.

To date the mid drive has been flawless. (No doubt now I've written that it'll die tomorrow.)

The hub felt like an artificial push, the mid drive feels more integrated. Assist-wise I had no issues with the hub, but I feel the mid drive is better for my body. I have to work in unison a little more with it. I'm sticking with that flavour for now. Both have their place.

Well stated. I agree, and although I'm fine with that, I think there are many where that doesn't work out so well (working in unison with the mid drive). For those, the hub drive may provide the better solution. -Al

 

[Delta]

no offense but if a Addmotor P7 competes with a M2s Ultra in anyway there is no question something wrong with the M2s, those 2 bikes are not in the same league. also you can easily buy a new Ultra torque sensor for like 100 bucks, not sure why you say the motor is useless? check Greenbikekit

Hi ElevenAD. That particular torque sensor just became available on GBK last month and I did buy it, $119 with shipping. Up until last month (or late Oct.) the torque was not available anywhere. Anna at GBK actually ordered it for stock from Bafang after I and one or two others asked her if she could get it. She has also obtained the plastic side cover for the Ultra, that is the cover that hides the electrical connectors and the motor mount nuts. As far as something being wrong with the m2s, that is possible but I did have a replacement motor and it still underperformed the hub drive P7. It just does not have the pep of the hub drive. Maybe it is the weight difference. The specifications in the torque and other menus are as they should be. I even adjusted some settings but it made no difference. So, my preference is a hub drive.

 

[FlatSix911]

Yeah, BH Dapu hub motor to Giant Yamaha mid drive.
The BH gave me no end of errors, it overheated on long climbs, it cut out when riding across busy intersections (yoikes!), and flashed various errors on most rides.
To date the mid drive has been flawless. (No doubt now I've written that it'll die tomorrow.)

The hub felt like an artificial push, the mid drive feels more integrated. Assist-wise I had no issues with the hub, but I feel the mid drive is better for my body.
I have to work in unison a little more with it. I'm sticking with that flavour for now. Both have their place.

This is the key criteria for me... as a long time cyclist, the natural riding feel is essential in my use case.

 

[Tom@WashDC]

My wife and I have two Aventon Levels, rear hub drive. I love the bike and it is everything I need in a city or paved-trail bike which comprises all of our riding together. Occasionally I get the hankering to go off road into the woods, over hill and dale. A friend of mine just installed the Bafang 750 watt mid-drive kit on his mountain bike and I want to be able rough it up with him in the woods. There appears to be no hill his bike cannot climb. I took delivery of a Mongoose Fat Tire Bike, and just ordered the 1600 Watt Hot Rod version of the Bafang BBSHD from Luna Cycle. I'll install a suspension seat post, new forks, and an adjustable handlebar riser. We'll see...

 

[AHicks]

My bet is you're going to like that bike (BBS02/Mongoose). Keep us posted!

 

[ElevenAD]

Hi ElevenAD. That particular torque sensor just became available on GBK last month and I did buy it, $119 with shipping. Up until last month (or late Oct.) the torque was not available anywhere. Anna at GBK actually ordered it for stock from Bafang after I and one or two others asked her if she could get it. She has also obtained the plastic side cover for the Ultra, that is the cover that hides the electrical connectors and the motor mount nuts. As far as something being wrong with the m2s, that is possible but I did have a replacement motor and it still underperformed the hub drive P7. It just does not have the pep of the hub drive. Maybe it is the weight difference. The specifications in the torque and other menus are as they should be. I even adjusted some settings but it made no difference. So, my preference is a hub drive.

preference is a totally different animal lol, im saying there is no way a bafang 750watt hub should have more power than a Bafang1500watt middrive!? seems very strange? maybe M2s limit the power of the Ultra like Sonders who knows but something seems odd, i have ridden both motor and there is a huge difference in torque and top speed.

 

[Jz1276]

I have had the juiced bikes fat tire Ripcurrent S with bafang 750w rear hub motor for 1.5 yrs and now I decided I wanted a mid drive so I got the Biktrix ultra eagle with bafang mid drive ultra motor (1500w Peak).

Has anybody else came here from a rear hub bike and switch to a mid drive? I feel like it's going to take me a bit to get used to. The main thing is how the motor drops rpms and you feel that slight pause when you change gears. It's kind of annnoying but I am just now learning this is a safety feature for mid drives. With my rear hub motor there's no kind of delay or pause or nothing between changing gears. I can go from a stop and speed up quickly and "click, click, click" all the way up to 9th gear right away.

With the mid drive when I want to take off fast from a stop and I want to change gears in the same way Im used to with the rip current it's like "click" "pause" "click" "pause". So it's annoying when you want to pedal hard and speed up quickly and then you get these pauses even though when the torque kicks in I am going way freaking faster on the ultra eagle than my Ripcurrent but it's just kind of weird I guess it doesn't feel "natural". The torque is pretty crazy but I just seem to get annoyed with the pause between changing gears because I'm used to changing fast.

Also with the rear hub if I was approaching a steep hill (lots of hills in Colorado) and forgot to get into low gear until the last second it didn't matter I can quickly change into the lowest gear right away and go up the hill just fine. However with the mid drive you have to change gears way before otherwise if you forget and try to change into the lowest gear at the last second while you're on the hill you will get stuck because the motor pauses between gear changes and you lose all assist and now you're trying to support this heavy bike midway on the hill. My entire power actually shut off on me at that moment when that happened.

I don't want to give up on it (the midrive cost me $4k) like I said maybe I just need to get used to it or find a different style of changing gears for the mid drive. I do notice during a gear change on the mid drive after the pause it picks up way more speed/torque all of a sudden which is pretty fun feeling. It doesn't really feel "natural" though like it does on the rear hub it feels more natural to me like riding a bike but with just a lot of assist with the mid drive you definately know it's the motor when it kicks in all of a sudden I guess the power doesn't feel as smooth from slow to fast because of the pauses.

I just got it a few days ago so like I said getting used to it but another thing I noticed again not sure if it's just in my head but I feel like when I stop pedaling on the mid drive it's like my speed starts dropping much more quicker than on the rear hub which feels like when I stop pedaling I can keep coasting for longer. I don't know if it's because the Ripcurrent is 4" fat tires or maybe it's the 52t chainring? The mid drive is 44t. Not sure if that has anything to do with it. Or just the fact the rear hub being in the rear tire it kind of "pushes" you so you are coasting on momentum? Does that make sense?

Or does it sound like I am just not going to be happy with mid drive? Maybe I can still return it I believe I have 14 days. If there's no real "getting used to it" then maybe I should just think about returning it and getting another rear hub motor? If it sounds like I prefer that type of riding style? I really want to like it it looks awesome I am having fun with it but like I said the pauses between the gears is getting on my nerves.

Hi, I know this post is a few months old but I just recently came upon it and saw that you had mentioned the pauses you get from the mid drive and how frustrating it is...
I'm assuming that you have a shift/gear sensor on it? If you do that's the cause of the problem right there. I've been building and riding mid drives for years and I didn't have never come across that problem whatsoever with the bike causing only when using sensors and that can be dangerous at times, but as long as you gain experience you may not need to rely on those sensors as much as you start to upgrade your parts and components.

I have had the juiced bikes fat tire Ripcurrent S with bafang 750w rear hub motor for 1.5 yrs and now I decided I wanted a mid drive so I got the Biktrix ultra eagle with bafang mid drive ultra motor (1500w Peak).

Has anybody else came here from a rear hub bike and switch to a mid drive? I feel like it's going to take me a bit to get used to. The main thing is how the motor drops rpms and you feel that slight pause when you change gears. It's kind of annnoying but I am just now learning this is a safety feature for mid drives. With my rear hub motor there's no kind of delay or pause or nothing between changing gears. I can go from a stop and speed up quickly and "click, click, click" all the way up to 9th gear right away.

With the mid drive when I want to take off fast from a stop and I want to change gears in the same way Im used to with the rip current it's like "click" "pause" "click" "pause". So it's annoying when you want to pedal hard and speed up quickly and then you get these pauses even though when the torque kicks in I am going way freaking faster on the ultra eagle than my Ripcurrent but it's just kind of weird I guess it doesn't feel "natural". The torque is pretty crazy but I just seem to get annoyed with the pause between changing gears because I'm used to changing fast.

Also with the rear hub if I was approaching a steep hill (lots of hills in Colorado) and forgot to get into low gear until the last second it didn't matter I can quickly change into the lowest gear right away and go up the hill just fine. However with the mid drive you have to change gears way before otherwise if you forget and try to change into the lowest gear at the last second while you're on the hill you will get stuck because the motor pauses between gear changes and you lose all assist and now you're trying to support this heavy bike midway on the hill. My entire power actually shut off on me at that moment when that happened.

I don't want to give up on it (the midrive cost me $4k) like I said maybe I just need to get used to it or find a different style of changing gears for the mid drive. I do notice during a gear change on the mid drive after the pause it picks up way more speed/torque all of a sudden which is pretty fun feeling. It doesn't really feel "natural" though like it does on the rear hub it feels more natural to me like riding a bike but with just a lot of assist with the mid drive you definately know it's the motor when it kicks in all of a sudden I guess the power doesn't feel as smooth from slow to fast because of the pauses.

I just got it a few days ago so like I said getting used to it but another thing I noticed again not sure if it's just in my head but I feel like when I stop pedaling on the mid drive it's like my speed starts dropping much more quicker than on the rear hub which feels like when I stop pedaling I can keep coasting for longer. I don't know if it's because the Ripcurrent is 4" fat tires or maybe it's the 52t chainring? The mid drive is 44t. Not sure if that has anything to do with it. Or just the fact the rear hub being in the rear tire it kind of "pushes" you so you are coasting on momentum? Does that make sense?

Or does it sound like I am just not going to be happy with mid drive? Maybe I can still return it I believe I have 14 days. If there's no real "getting used to it" then maybe I should just think about returning it and getting another rear hub motor? If it sounds like I prefer that type of riding style? I really want to like it it looks awesome I am having fun with it but like I said the pauses between the gears is getting on my nerves.

Hi, I just read your post and I see us a few months old but I don't have much time to get on and read these days.
I've been building and riding mid drives for years now. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you probably have a gear / shift sensor attached. If so that is what is causing your issue with the motor pausing..
I've installed one gear sensor for a client in the last 7 years. When you have quality components and a solid drivetrain you really don't have to worry about a shift sensor. I personally shift a lot and I can shift more than one gear at a time up or down if I need to come to a stop quickly and take off quickly...
The only time I ever had issues with the bike pausing was when I had the brake cuttoff sensors connected. That is when I had felt a little unsafe when trying to take off after hitting the brakes and the sensor takes about a second or two to allow you to continue on your way (using electric).
I'm sure you're pretty capable guy and you really don't need a shift sensor to tell you to live off the throttle a bit while you're shifting.
I guess I'll have to read on a little bit more to see if you've made any progress and what you ended up doing but if this message finds you hopefully if you haven't made that change yet, maybe you will.
There is definitely a lot of people on here that post much more than I do, so I'm sure that you probably have the answers that you need already but if there's anything I can do to help please let me know? Jason

 

[kmccune]

My opinion, "holding" 30 mph is more in line with high voltage (60-70v) applied to big direct drive hubs. The biggest issue is about cooling required at that kind of speed. Neither the hub drives or the mid drives are real good at it. Direct drive far better in that respect. Both geared hub and mid are able to crack 30 easily. Holding it for the length of a commute for instance, is quite another issue. That's assuming you have enough Ah capacity in your battery to make a 30mph commute even worth considering.

One finer point regarding the GMAC. From a performance perspective, the GMAC is basically an improved MAC with regen. There's no difference that I'm aware of between the 2 motors as far as performance. -Al

That big"MXUS" seems to do pretty good, in the course of events it seems maybe some of the proletariat would be better served with an "ECycle" cuz some of these nice bikes are rather hard to pedal unassisted.I watched the test of a 'Polish"( believe it was) small electric trail bike, that thing had scary acceleration and it didn't cost a fortune.( you cracked the throttle open and it looked like warp speed- wouldn't take me long to crack up on that little beast)

 

[tomjasz]

I’ve been beating on a MXUS DD 1000W. It seems bulletproof!

 

[Daffyh]

How sl


How slow are we talking about? I have had my rear hub drive for 1.5 yr as my only form of transportation and in Colorado I go off road into the trails where I need to be slow and I also have a pet trailer that I take my puppy around on. If I want to go slow I just turn down the assist. I have never said to myself "I wish I could go slower on this bike".

My situation exactly i have a bafang hub drive for the dogs bike trailer its a fat bike with throttle, display says it outputs 1000w at peak it was advertised as 750w peak.
I also have had 3 mid drives, one of which i still own (R&M Electric rolhoff) and it takes awhile to get used to letting off on the drivetrain when you change gears. Over 1000klm's on that bike and i still occasionally stuff up the gear change. I towed the dogs n trailer with my previous PAS only mid drive, personally i way prefer the rear hub and as its a bafang for the 30kgs extra load and i can change the settings as i require.

 

[MeDotOrg]

Getting away from a stop is definitely easier with a throttle button. As far as torque sensors versus cadence, I say horses for courses. I came from riding a road bike, so my approach is to have an electric motor that augments my muscle effort, rather than replaces it. But if I had a cargo bike, I might appreciate the instant (albiet artificial) push from a throttle button.

 

[Lumr]

I have had the juiced bikes fat tire Ripcurrent S with bafang 750w rear hub motor for 1.5 yrs and now I decided I wanted a mid drive so I got the Biktrix ultra eagle with bafang mid drive ultra motor (1500w Peak).

Has anybody else came here from a rear hub bike and switch to a mid drive? I feel like it's going to take me a bit to get used to. The main thing is how the motor drops rpms and you feel that slight pause when you change gears. It's kind of annnoying but I am just now learning this is a safety feature for mid drives. With my rear hub motor there's no kind of delay or pause or nothing between changing gears. I can go from a stop and speed up quickly and "click, click, click" all the way up to 9th gear right away.

With the mid drive when I want to take off fast from a stop and I want to change gears in the same way Im used to with the rip current it's like "click" "pause" "click" "pause". So it's annoying when you want to pedal hard and speed up quickly and then you get these pauses even though when the torque kicks in I am going way freaking faster on the ultra eagle than my Ripcurrent but it's just kind of weird I guess it doesn't feel "natural". The torque is pretty crazy but I just seem to get annoyed with the pause between changing gears because I'm used to changing fast.

Also with the rear hub if I was approaching a steep hill (lots of hills in Colorado) and forgot to get into low gear until the last second it didn't matter I can quickly change into the lowest gear right away and go up the hill just fine. However with the mid drive you have to change gears way before otherwise if you forget and try to change into the lowest gear at the last second while you're on the hill you will get stuck because the motor pauses between gear changes and you lose all assist and now you're trying to support this heavy bike midway on the hill. My entire power actually shut off on me at that moment when that happened.

I don't want to give up on it (the midrive cost me $4k) like I said maybe I just need to get used to it or find a different style of changing gears for the mid drive. I do notice during a gear change on the mid drive after the pause it picks up way more speed/torque all of a sudden which is pretty fun feeling. It doesn't really feel "natural" though like it does on the rear hub it feels more natural to me like riding a bike but with just a lot of assist with the mid drive you definately know it's the motor when it kicks in all of a sudden I guess the power doesn't feel as smooth from slow to fast because of the pauses.

I just got it a few days ago so like I said getting used to it but another thing I noticed again not sure if it's just in my head but I feel like when I stop pedaling on the mid drive it's like my speed starts dropping much more quicker than on the rear hub which feels like when I stop pedaling I can keep coasting for longer. I don't know if it's because the Ripcurrent is 4" fat tires or maybe it's the 52t chainring? The mid drive is 44t. Not sure if that has anything to do with it. Or just the fact the rear hub being in the rear tire it kind of "pushes" you so you are coasting on momentum? Does that make sense?

Or does it sound like I am just not going to be happy with mid drive? Maybe I can still return it I believe I have 14 days. If there's no real "getting used to it" then maybe I should just think about returning it and getting another rear hub motor? If it sounds like I prefer that type of riding style? I really want to like it it looks awesome I am having fun with it but like I said the pauses between the gears is getting on my nerves.

Actually, most of the mid-drive users with cadence sensing units (which it seems you have) don't use the shifters that much and use the assist levels more...when approaching a hill, downshift several gears before the hill and when you start climbing and it gets harder increase the assist levels instead of downshifting more. It's a lot easier that way. 4" tires will increase the drag a lot.

 

[E-Wheels]

Makes perfect sense! I'm left wondering though, if you've considered a direct drive? I'm a BIG geared hub fan (LOVE my MAC 12t!), but direct drives are just about the ultimate in simplicity/longevity. Been there too. For use on a level commute, something like that should work really well unless there's a lot of stop and go involved. A 1500w direct drive is pretty peppy once you get it moving. They'll never be as sporty as a gear drive, but between 10 and 20 mph they're not bad. Kinda like an accelerating a diesel. The longer you stay into the throttle, the faster it goes! If considering this route, I would look for a low speed wind to maximize low speed torque. The high speed winds are about top end, like speeds over 30mph, where they eat huge amounts of power due to wind resistance. Perfect winding count wold top out at something under 30mph (to maximise low speed torque). I understand Leaf will build what you ask for as far as speed is concerned. Guessing there are others as well.

I don't know what's going on with MAC. For whatever reason, it would seem the only motors that are available are the fancy GMAC's from Grin. The conventional MAC motor sources have dried up. Makes no sense, unless Grin is buying up everything MAC can make for use on their GMAC conversions - which uses many of the same parts the regular MAC uses. I did see that Grin is opening a new bigger facility. Looking forward to further developments from those folks.

Thanks @AHicks for the suggestion of a DD
I agree a DD hub makes perfect sense for my use case and I was initially considering one but closed the book on them when most of the kits I found weighed >6kg
Well, I have reopened the book as I see that Grin make the All-Axle DD front hub which is relatively light weight DD coming in at 4kg, which is around the same weight as the GMAC

All-Axle Hub Motor - Grin Products - Product Info

The All Axle motor takes the simplicity and robustness of the direct drive hub motor, and optimizes it for the modern bike platform. This hub is fully compatible with all quick release and thru-axle bike forks, it is over 30% lighter than standard generic hubs of similar power (4kg vs 6kg), and...

ebikes.ca

Looks good as I can transfer it to any bike or front fork combination I choose by getting the interchangeable adapters to suit
Being a DD hub means it has minimal parts, so less to fail or wear out, so hopefully should be reliable

I’d be interested to know if you or any other members have any experience with this motor

As a side note, how noisy is the GMAC
From the videos I have seen on YouTube they seem to have anywhere from a moderate to high noise level, depending on the speed and also having straight cut spur gears
I guessing, but it sounds to be about the same noise as a Bosch CX mid drive?

 

[AHicks]

Re: GMAC noise level. The GMAC and MAC motors share a lot of the same parts - including the gear train. The biggest difference internaly is the clutch. The MAC uses one, where the GMAC does not. Anyway, my MAC is nearly silent. Sure, at wide open throttle and/or high speed, it makes a little more, but there's little chance others won't be the same or more likely, much worse. Quiet since new, and now at about 2.5 years and a couple thousand miles, is still that way. I can't imagine the GMAC being any different, or a different geared hub drive being much quieter. -Al

 

[E-Wheels]

Re: GMAC noise level. The GMAC and MAC motors share a lot of the same parts - including the gear train. The biggest difference internaly is the clutch. The MAC uses one, where the GMAC does not. Anyway, my MAC is nearly silent. Sure, at wide open throttle and/or high speed, it makes a little more, but there's little chance others won't be the same or more likely, much worse. Quiet since new, and now at about 2.5 years and a couple thousand miles, is still that way. I can't imagine the GMAC being any different, or a different geared hub drive being much quieter. -Al

Thanks
what do you call high speed

 

[AHicks]

Anything over 20 maybe?

Keep in mind ANY geared hub motor is going to be on the downside of it's power curve when talking speeds like that. If you plan on spending time here, as in commuting, I think you need to be thinking direct drive.

 

[Eric Ryder]

Old thread, but...FYI, I have been riding hub motor eBikes for a few years now. I just purchased my first mid-drive motor eBike, and, for me, it's not something I'm enjoying. Besides breaking two chains within the first mile I rode the bike - two weeks in the shop between breaks - I don't like the way it shifts and how much work you have to do. the hub motor is all about just kicking back and riding. I leave it in the highest gear - 7th - and just pedal easily - but not too easily - and use the throttle at the same time. Now I have to sell the mid-drive eBike cuz it'll cost a fortune to send it back, and to get it boxed to ship. not to mention the hassle. Ugh.