8+ months of research, 100s of hours, know what I need & want but can't find it

It would be amazing if a Vado or Como worked out. The Vado has a shorter seat tube length that might even allow for a suspension post... It would a long shot, but who knows.
 
Stefan Mikes said:
I would have ridden your Trek 520 and returned on the Specialized e-bike 😃
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You must be in much better shape than I am Stefan. That bike shop is only 37 mi away but, even with the more upright positio on my Trek 520, and even if the tires were still good after sitting all these years, I don't think my back would have survived the first three miles or so up and then down the steep washboard dirt road on a bike with no suspension. And the owner of the shop had told me he did not have the Vado 4.0 in stock but he did have a small in the Vado 3.0 and a Como 3.0 as well as the cargo bikes that I could try out and then we could talk ordering. In fact, a friend of mine actually took me there yesterday and here's the news update.


FLASH! I actually got a ride to this bike shop yesterday from a friend and tried them all out. Eureka, the newer vato has plenty of standover clearance and fits me near perfectly as is. Even though it was the 3.0 with the shifters that are painful for me to work, the test ride, with taking not huge shells but some long ones, was exceptional. I learned a few things just trying this model. First, although I didn't think I necessarily wanted a class 3 over a class one bike, it was fantastic to get up to 25 miles per hour find just Eco or tour assessed and then, on the flat, just pedal up over 40 miles per hour with no great effort. I was having a blast. I would have gotten up faster but I was coming up on a stop sign soon so I got to test the brakes. Great stopping power at speed. I could see how I could actually go ask over tea kettle with these brakes (something I did on my second run at a bump on a BMX track, little snot nose who told me how to jump lied about applying brakes!) trying out the turbo Como I learned that I really do not like that position at all, just too upright. I also learned that, unfortunately, the SRAM NX shifters are even worse than the Alivio for my hands. I decided to try out the cargo bike just to test out the Microshift shifters and learned that the Advent x shifters were pretty much equivalent to the Deore the for my wrist. (I also learned that I was absolutely right about cargo bikes not being for me. I hadn't had time to do my back stretches and exercises before leaving home and I was doing fine on the other bikes. I hardly noticed the bumps in the pavement until I took the cargo bike just into the parking lot. Every crack in the pavement sent a shot of pain up my spine. Stupid 20-in tires and no seat post suspension.)

So, I asked the owner if he could switch out the shifters with Deore and he explained that the Shimano shifters wouldn't be compatible
with the other components but he looked up the components for pricing for me. The prices he quoted on the components were extremely reasonable, less than if I bought them online myself so I am sure he is being quite fair. He also said we might be able to keep the existing cassette but the Deore cassette would only be about 40 bucks anyway.

I spent too many hours last night struggling with a decision regarding whether or not to wait for the bike shop in Syracuse to get in all the Gazelles they ordered. But I think one last serendipitous circumstance has pushed me to a decision, ( there you have it guys, who have been singing the piss or get off the pot tune ) the fact that the Vado 4.0 in small is available only to consumers ordering directly for the unbelievable price of $2,750. So what am I going to do you may ask? Well, now I'm just trying to decide whether to go with that depressing black or 'flag-waving'-to-the Bulls-they-call -Troopers around here red. Right now I'm thinking about my last bike crash, in June last year, on my red Honda Helix 250 which left me with nine broken ribs. Maybe I'll just get that boring black and paint zebra stripes on it. 😜
 
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BurroBabe said:
I hardly noticed the bumps in the pavement until I took the cargo bike just into the parking lot. Every crack in the pavement sent a shot of pain up my spine. Stupid 20-in tires and no seat post suspension.)
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The Haul ST has an exceptionally rough ride. I can't believe some reviews call it comfortable. I suspect the mind conflates the very smooth power delivery with overall smoothness. It's a headache machine that makes my rigid fork gravel bike feel like I'm gliding. Build quality is also not comparable to Specialized, Tern, Gazelle, etc., hence using the Globe sub-brand.
 
DaveMatthews said:
Unapologetically I went Giant.
Massive LBS network.
Also includes Momentum and Liv.

Buy what you want, or assemble. Your choice.
I prefer LBS commitment service.
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Your comment made me realize that I didn't make it clear. The LBS owner told me that the Vado I wanted wasn't available to the dealer network, only for the direct to consumer network. Specialized has two pots of bikes. He told me to order it sent to him, he would get his cut from Specialized to build it up and I will pay for the extras. Win, win for both of us!
 
BurroBabe said:
Your comment made me realize that I didn't make it clear. The LBS owner told me that the Vado I wanted wasn't available to the dealer network, only for the direct to consumer network. Specialized has two pots of bikes. He told me to order it sent to him, he would get his cut from Specialized to build it up and I will pay for the extras. Win, win for both of us!
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Yes, you just choose the "Specialized Delivery" on the website. Do you have the option of your LBS delivering the Vado to your home? He would earn a bigger commission on that!

As I can understand, you would order a SRAM for Shimano drivetrain swap? A good idea! SRAM does not get a high opinion from my buddies. My brother specifically names it 'the SRAM vice' :D Are you choosing a 11 or 12-speed drivetrain? If it is the 11 speed, choosing the Shimano M5100 drivetrain with the 11-51T cassette is economic, and it ensures a wide gearing. I did such a swap on my Vado SL, that is, I have swapped a 10-speed Deore with the 11-speed M5100 Deore (11-51T) and am very happy about that!

I wonder how steep hills you have. The stock 48T chainring on the Vado is for the speed not for climbing. However, it would be reasonable for you just to test how Vado would be really working for you in real life! My Vado 6.0 has now a Shimano M7000 SLX cassette (11-46T) and it is running a 44T chainring: it has proven itself on a 15.4% grade climb just two days ago!
 
Stefan Mikes said:
Yes, you just choose the "Specialized Delivery" on the website. Do you have the option of your LBS delivering the Vado to your home? He would earn a bigger commission on that!

As I can understand, you would order a SRAM for Shimano drivetrain swap? A good idea! SRAM does not get a high opinion from my buddies. My brother specifically names it 'the SRAM vice' :D Are you choosing a 11 or 12-speed drivetrain? If it is the 11 speed, choosing the Shimano M5100 drivetrain with the 11-51T cassette is economic, and it ensures a wide gearing. I did such a swap on my Vado SL, that is, I have swapped a 10-speed Deore with the 11-speed M5100 Deore (11-51T) and am very happy about that!

I wonder how steep hills you have. The stock 48T chainring on the Vado is for the speed not for climbing. However, it would be reasonable for you just to test how Vado would be really working for you in real life! My Vado 6.0 has now a Shimano M7000 SLX cassette (11-46T) and it is running a 44T chainring: it has proven itself on a 15.4% grade climb just two days ago!
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I am so glad you brought up these questions! The Vado is coming with 11 sp so I would just stay with that. I didn't realize that I was pushing a 48t chainring! that explains how I could get up to about 44mph in only the mid-range of the gears, and I don't do super-fast cadence either. I think that, with the terrain here, I would opt for something more like you have on the 6.0. The roads, unless you are in the river valley riding the path along the river, is all rollers. The steepest roads are the ones leading up to where I live at a higher elevation. That 44 x 11 is needed on those. In fact, I'll have to check my 520. We may have dialed that one in when we customized the cranks as well. It may be as low as 42 x 11. And that was 30 years ago! Is that M7000 cassette an 11 or a 12?

And thanks so much for telling me about his being able to earn a bigger commission! I was toying with the thought of asking if he would deliver. After all, I don't have a car, but I didn't think he would want to. But if he does get an incentive. It would sure make my life a little easier. And now I don't have to feel like I'm asking too much or that I would have to pay him extra to do so. But I don't think I want my first ride to be all the way home from his shop!

And now what will I decide, white stripes to make it Zebra 🦓, or yellow stripes to make it more Vespa?🐝 (for those of you who don't do Latin, it is the name of a certain family of Yellow Jackets.) Hmmmmmm🤔, of course with Red I could go with scales, outlined in silver, for Dragon, but again, there was the Honda 250 I was planning to make a dragon as well. . . . . nah, it'll be black.
 
BurroBabe said:
Is that M7000 cassette an 11 or a 12?
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Meanwhile, Shimano seems to have updated their technology. I still can buy spare parts for my M7000-11 but of course Shimano is pushing the newer technology :)
My drivetrain is based on the Shimano CS-M7000-11 cassette in the 11-46T variant and a long cage Deore XT SGS derailleur.

Shimano makes you believe you need a Deore XT M8130 11-speed drivetrain with the Clamp Band Shifter Lever. This new drivetrain is based on the new Linkglide technology. If your LBS thinks it is a good way to go, go on with that! (It will give you a wide range 11-50T cassette).

I am for practical and more economical older solutions, such as the Deore M5100, which gives you a 11-51T 11-speed gearing, is inexpensive but reliable.
  • Shimano Deore RD-M5100 11-speed derailleur, Shadow RD+ clutch. It is as large as it fits the 51T largest cassette cog
  • Shimano Deore CS-M5100 11-speed cassette, 11-51T
  • Shifter: Shimano Deore SL-M5100, right hand side, 11-speed, clamp mounted (no I-Spec)
  • A 11-speed chain of a proper length, the best by Shimano or KMC
  • (Possibly a new Jagwire shifter cable unless the existing one could be re-used).
The main difference is the M5100 is a way cheaper in maintenance than the XT8130-11 is.
----------
You might keep your 48T chainring though. The benefit of the stock chainrings used on Vados is the holes in them are threaded, which allows for a simple installing, and the chainguard is provided. If you do not want to stain your legs, keeping the chainguard on the original chainring is a good idea :)
Note: the 48-51T gearing is the same as my 44-46T! Keep the chainring and chainguard! It takes many thousand of miles to wear a large chainring!

BurroBabe said:
And thanks so much for telling me about his being able to earn a bigger commission! I was toying with the thought of asking if he would deliver. After all, I don't have a car, but I didn't think he would want to. But if he does get an incentive. It would sure make my life a little easier. And now I don't have to feel like I'm asking too much or that I would have to pay him extra to do so. But I don't think I want my first ride to be all the way home from his shop!
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I am not sure if the Specialized Home Delivery (via the LBS) is offered in your area. I like your way of thinking anyway!

BurroBabe said:
After all, I don't have a car,
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I hahahah do but my car is just a piece of junk so we are in the identical position! :D

BurroBabe said:
And now what will I decide, white stripes to make it Zebra 🦓, or yellow stripes to make it more Vespa?🐝(for those of you who don't do Latin, it is the name of a certain family of Yellow Jackets.) Hmmmmmm🤔, of course with Red I could go with scales, outlined in silver, for Dragon, but again, there was the Honda 250 I was planning to make a dragon as well. . . . . nah, it'll be black.
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Hahaha! I need to see a photo of your Vado when you get it :) Good luck!

1716197475202.png

I could make the very same climb on my Vado in TURBO and 44-46T gearing myself on last Saturday! :) (Photo credits: Szymon Gruchalski Cycling).
 
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kevinmccune said:
one little gnome like guy i met was extolling the virtues of a 2x11,probably over 70 he was and he was a "spinning" going up a long steep upgrade at eagle rock as for me i believe a 3 spd is plenty,when i was on the eastern trail yesterday dodging rocks and small boulders,i realized 11 mph was plenty fast( dang near run out of juice in 5th gear) the most comfortable bike i ever rode was a full suspension cheaper brand,did ride it enough to wear out a rear tire,dumb like i let it go in the search for the"holy grail" of more power-finally realized you gotta feed them watts.
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Not sure what you are trying to convey :) but...

1716202374590.png

The man on the left made 415 km/257.9 mi with 5,026 m/16,490 ft elevation gain in 17 hours and 30 minutes, of which he was not pedalling for 15 minutes only. The man took the 6th place. He exclusively rode the 44-44T (1:1) gearing, so that was effectively a single-speed bike. That's when you have a powerful "motor" in your own legs :D

Multispeed cassettes such as 11 or 12s are to make the mid-drive motor work at the highest efficiency, which occurs at a certain cadence. The role of the cassette is to maintain the proper cadence and nothing else. It is not that you can have a 3-speed gearing with a mid-drive motor and just pump the watts. No. Doing so also makes your range ridiculously short.

A good mid-drive motor e-bike with proper gearing can be very economic on the battery, be a good climber and a sprinter at the same time. It allows maintaining a good cadence, which is also good for your health, especially to the leg joints.
 
m@Robertson said:
Hell no I wouldn't. That road bike I pictured earlier is a Vitus 979 'duraluminium' frame from 1983, if I recall correctly.
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Ha. I raced one of those in 85/86. One of Sean Kelly's cast offs. Kelly raced with the Spanish team KAS at the time who were vitus equipped and being the canny farmer Kelly was he'd always sell off his frames end of season to Irish club cyclists. So I ended up with one that was probably third hand at least. But the glued frame was so light! Wish I still had it.
 
I've missed 3 pages of discussion while out in the country. I still don't understand why you don't drop $760 to convert one of the bikes you like. https://ebikeling.com/products/750w-geared-ebike-conversion-kit?variant=40299065901122 with the 17.5 ah battery that gets me 30 hilly miles with groceries.
Challenges, you need to mount the controller and battery with 5 mm screws & aluminum angle. You'll need a drill and a hacksaw, and safety glasses. You have to buy or make and install a torque arm. You have to match the colors on the wires and tie-wrap them to the frame. If there is a crank pickup you may need to buy a crank arm puller. Mine is a Pedro's and cost $16. I did not like the high speed of PAS1 and should have just tied the pickup to the frame out of the way.
Benefits, you can buy a spare hub motor & controller also from ebikeling for $360 and keep them in the garage. I wear out the gears on a motor, I am back on the road in 2 days. Controller or throttle, 1 day. With the throttle you can leave it in PAS 0, use the throttle and have no surges whatsoever. I rode my cargo bike 10 times to my contaminated fuel tractor stalled out in the field last weekend with tools in the bag, 1 mph. You can use any shifter, derailleur, groupset on your old bicycle and not violate the warrenty of a hub motor+battery kit. BTW not all cargo bikes have 20" wheels. Mine are 26".
I see a previous poster sold you on one of Petaluma mid drive conversions. Mid-drives cool better and are required to climb mountains in California, Colorado, etc. You live 2500 miles from the nearest such mountain. Geared hub drives, my chains last 5000 miles by contrast with mid-drives. The 11 speed mid-drives can wear out a chain in less than 1000 miles.
If you are happy with the specialized, that is great until you need warrenty work. Then you are 36 miles from the dealer, without a car. Myself, I buy parts delivered by USPS or UPS, and throw old ones away. My nearest dealer (Giant) is 4 miles but it is a long walk if the bike won't roll & pedal. I've got 12000 miles on my conversion and am still rolling under power. 27 miles yesterday at 88 F in 3.4 hours.
 
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Stefan Mikes said:
Not sure what you are trying to convey :) but...

View attachment 176201
The man on the left made 415 km/257.9 mi with 5,026 m/16,490 ft elevation gain in 17 hours and 30 minutes, of which he was not pedalling for 15 minutes only. The man took the 6th place. He exclusively rode the 44-44T (1:1) gearing, so that was effectively a single-speed bike. That's when you have a powerful "motor" in your own legs :D

Multispeed cassettes such as 11 or 12s are to make the mid-drive motor work at the highest efficiency, which occurs at a certain cadence. The role of the cassette is to maintain the proper cadence and nothing else. It is not that you can have a 3-speed gearing with a mid-drive motor and just pump the watts. No. Doing so also makes your range ridiculously short.

A good mid-drive motor e-bike with proper gearing can be very economic on the battery, be a good climber and a sprinter at the same time. It allows maintaining a good cadence, which is also good for your health, especially to the leg joints.
Click to expand...
Maybe the dumb f*ck would have come in fifth place if he wasn't Polish and shifted... Effectively making him work smarter not harder 🙃
 
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BurroBabe said:
I'm new here and never had an ebike, but I've been a cyclist most of my life. Now at 72, still fit and mostly able, I no longer have a car or motorbike for transportation. I live way up in the hills, more than 20 miles from a decent store or farmers' market and more than 30 miles from my closest friends. I've been looking since last summer for serious e-bike transportation. I'm a nerd when it comes to research and science so I've self-educated on motors, batteries, range factors (I was originally researching ev's until I found I couldn't afford them or insurance) and have read and watched reviews of just about everything and gone to every manufacturer's website as well to try to find all appropriate specs. The trouble is, some of those specs that really matter are rarely listed or mentioned! I started with an idea of a budget but it has kept climbing as I learn more and more. I just need to find a bike that has what I need. Here it is:

1. I'm small, now under 5' (down from 5' 1 3/4" when young) but my inseam is shorter than normal for my height, at 27 3/4" to the floor. Forget what bike manufacturers list as fit by height, I have NO standover clearance even on the mid-step of Gazelle's Medeo T9 which is said to fit down to 4' 10", even though the fit is fine once I'm riding (long torso). So, I need a true step-through or low-step. This narrows the field significantly.

2. Lightweight I'm light, 110 lbs fully clothed. Beast bikes weighing over 60 lbs, even 55 and up, are too heavy. Too many reviews never talk about weight, even manufacturers leave it out or make it hard to find. I want to ride a bike, I push the pedals, I don't want to have to depend on a motor all the time and on the flat. And I have a long way to go, as well as loads of groceries to get home and no, I DON'T want a cargo bike. I want a bike that I enjoy riding lots of miles and up and down the hills. And sometimes I have to pick it up. (more about that in #4)

3. Mid drive, natural feel, responsive. Yes, I want a Bosch motor, one that is quiet, a system that responds smoothly and doesn't make me feel like I'm back on a motorcycle. One that lets me pedal with no assist and doesn't feel like I'm trying to move a rock sled but has enough torque to get me and my groceries and maybe my dog up the last really steep hills home.

4. Shock fork. Although most of the mileage will be on paved roads, there are a few miles of dirt roads I must use going in one direction, and they are steep and washboards with potholes. A lot of the roads here have almost no shoulder and what is there is a mix of gravel, rock and dirt. I used to do these on my Trek 520 touring bike with skinny smooth tires but I'm no spring chicken. At 72 after a life of hard work I have serious arthritis in my hands and especially wrists. That means lots of pain a lot of the time. I can't take the vibration. That also means 2 more requirements:

5. Just the right sweep to the handlebars. Here I can't figure out the numbers; again the manufacturers and reviewers don't give sweep degrees. There haven't been many bikes I've been able to try. I tried some Gazelles (135 miles away) and my hands were comfortable. The Trek Verve+ calls their bars "swept" but they were too straight, I can't rotate my wrist inward, and only a little outward so I need the angle to make my hand position neutral. The body position and reach were fine on the Trek but my wrist was really hurting. My fingers are also short so the reach to the Alivio thumb shift was too far away and made me have to rotate my wrist. That leads to the next requirement.

6. Deore shifters are the most comfortable I've used. I've also seen a "microshift" system on one bike I was reading about,but can't remember which. It would probably work too.

7. Range. Remember where I said I live? Yeah, even going shopping is a long haul with no chance to charge up. Except for those big hills I can go motorless or use eco mode most of the time unloaded but I have to have juice to get home with the load. So, I know it's a balancing act with motor ( power + torque = more weight), battery size (more ah = more weight) and range (more weight uses more energy, more stored energy equals more weight, more weight means I need more assist). It's like an unsolvable Zen koan. I have no idea how to figure where the sweet spot is.

If you have managed to get this far you understand my difficulty even finding candidates. I also learned the hard way that I must be able to get on a bike to try it out (or do some geometry matching based on what I have ridden). My first mistake was ordering a refurb Specialized Turbo Vado 4.0 ST from a reputable seller to whom I gave my inseam measurements and who swore this bike was a good fit. I loved how it rode, but the mid step bar was hard up my crotch and pressed all the way up the front of my pubic bone. A stop on the slightest variation from perfectly flat sent me right over sideways. And that is every road shoulder and driveway here. So , my limitations on being able to even find bikes to try within 150 miles has only given me the chance to try the Gazelle Medeos, which I cannot straddle (and I don't want a belt drive), and the Trek Verve+, which fit well but would require adding a shock fork (maximum 50mm travel) and different handlebars of as yet unknown sweep.

What else might be out there? I know the Bosch website lists many other brands that use their motors but they are all unfamiliar to me. If any of you out there, especially other short riders, are familiar with any of these other brands and models that might fill my needs, please give them a shout out. And if you have any other kind of advice on any of these matters that I haven't thought of, I'm open to all suggestions and other edification.

Thanks for reading!
Click to expand...
 
Buy a Bosch based mid drive system with a gen3 system and Nyon based display, you can then play with the torque mapping modes if you buy a cheap app add-on from Bosch. You can set the lowest mode to simply offset the additional weight of the bike.

I would avoid add-ons, conversions and other bodges that involve new wheels with powered hubs and wires cable tied to frames, they will never feel as natural as a mid drive with too much lag, look horrible, and are illegal in some countries.
 
indianajo said:
I've missed 3 pages of discussion while out in the country. I still don't understand why you don't drop $760 to convert one of the bikes you like.
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Why? he asks. Well, first thing is that with my right hand barely functional or at least very painful most of the time, it took me over 3 hours just to put up hangers for two blinds on my window, not counting the prep work to get to the window frame and measure. Putting it together is completely beyond my capacity.
indianajo said:
Then you are 36 miles from the dealer, without a car. Myself, I buy parts delivered by USPS or UPS, and throw old ones away. My nearest dealer (Giant) is 4 miles but it is a long walk if the bike won't roll & pedal. I've got 12000 miles on my conversion and am still rolling under power.
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I'm not worried about that part. I'm getting insurance on this bike and that will pay to take the bike to the LBS and taxi me home. 😎
 
I saw "crashed a Helix 250"! What and how? I've crashed 2 myself but both times were my fault. I've been on the hunt for a Helix so for long I'm about to give up. Either they have silly miles or super low miles, means they've sat for awhile.
 
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