8+ months of research, 100s of hours, know what I need & want but can't find it

Wrong.

Bosch motors are made in Hungary, and Bosch batteries are made in Poland.
Brose/Specialized motors are made in Germany.
Mahle/Specialized motors are made in Germany.
Yamaha/Giant motors are made in Japan.
Fazua and TQ motors are made in Germany.

Why do you spread false information?
Thank you, Stefan, for educating everyone on this! Even though I am surprised Bosch is making their motors in Hungary; I thought they were a German company. I guess the US companies aren't the only ones outsourcing. I don't believe anyone here is intentionally spreading false information, though. It just happens to be the case that, in my experience (arguing with store owners over where their products come from), most Americans are convinced that "nothing is made in the US anymore" and that " everything is made in China now". I personally think that is because they are all looking for the cheapest price and shopping at Walmart. :confused:

Would you happen to know if any of the manufacturers you listed make motors for conversions?
 
In general, bikes with suspension forks have taller stack heights, so that’s something the OP needs to consider if having standover clearance issues.
BikerG,
Could you please tell me what OP stands for?
As for stack heights, that is not a problem for me, nor for anyone whose body proportions are short inseam & long torso. In fact, it is an advantage.
As for stack height having anything to do with standover height, it doesn't. I have a mountain bike with a triangle frame and a shock fork, with plenty of standover height. I also have a hybrid with a shock fork, same thing.
 
Burro Babe
I checked my xl program of step thru fat tire bikes,
and have these suggestions for you check on:
Stand over height = 14" = Velowave Grace ST @ 92 #'s
QuiteKat St = 16" = @ 61#'s

Thanks for checking your xl program for me. Perhaps I didn't mention however, I do not want a fat tire bike. To me, 1.95" is fat enough, for a hybrid or for a mountain bike. Fat tires=too much road friction. I want to roll on the road, pedal without assistance most of the time. I don't want to add rolling resistance.
 
Life is too short to spend this much time trying to figure out what Ebike to purchase. I heard someone say once, paralysis by analysis. Buy a bike. If you don't like it sell it and buy a different bike. I'm sure I will get grief from the softies here, but jeeze louise, s*it or get off the pot...
 
I ride in grass rarely, mainly to fix my tractor when stuck out in the field. Took a chunk of concrete to throw in the sinkhole 2 weeks ago, tire slipped on the upgrade coming back so won't do that again.
Hey Indianajoe, most of the building and electronic talk was above me (except for understanding the stuff about insufficient torque) but I found another thing we have in common... tractors! If I get stuck, run out of fuel or something, I just walk. If I've got heavy stuff to carry back, I take my pack donkey. 😉 easier than hauling on a bike on the hills and through brush on the farm.
 
Life is too short to spend this much time trying to figure out what Ebike to purchase. I heard someone say once, paralysis by analysis. Buy a bike. If you don't like it sell it and buy a different bike. I'm sure I will get grief from the softies here, but jeeze louise, s*it or get off the pot...
I hope no one gives you s*it about saying it. It's valid. But I'm trying to learn what my options are, get suggestions that I can investigate, and have already been given some options I never would have thought of. I need to know what options there are. I live far from any bike shops, over 100 mi from anywhere that has shops with a selection of ebikes, and I don't own a car or live anywhere I can even get a bus. So, as long as there are people willing to share their knowledge or experience, I'm listening. Isn't that what a forum is for?
 
A donkey or mule would be real handy for toting garbage cans of wood to throw in the sinkhole. I spend half my summer doing that. OTOH I would have to live out at the summer property to take care of the donkey in the winter. I would have to rake up & store hay. No packaged food for diabetics out there, and I do not ride the bike on 12% hills on ice. No car either. The donkey probably could not drink from the lake unless I break the ice in 6 deg weather. My Amish neighbor is touting the utility of his horses, but his $12 an hour helper cannot keep a horse in town where he lives. I'd have to send a Amish taxi to go get him to help me change a door. I cannot keep horses/donkeys/mules either at my city house 2 blocks from the grocery & bank. And a donkey could not keep up with me on 27 miles on my bicycle. I average 9 mph late summer, & cross 6 lane highways at 23 mph. Donkeys & horses are sprinters, except the special long range runner breeds. Even those have to train regularly for distance.
Roger forums are for opinions. Read first, then later shop. I learned about bike motors that way. After my 6 hours for 30 miles trip 2017, I started looking up bike motors that you had to mount low on the frame to drive the chain, that ran off 24 v lead acid batteries. Clunky. Then searches found me LiIon 36 & 48 v motors built into the wheel, that I could add to my existing bike. First I found was hilltopper, then I found ebikeling who was a lot cheaper, more powerful, and bought. $300 wasted on garbage batteries, but the $840 for power wheel & mounts was a good investment. Got 4500 miles out of motor, 9000 miles out of the controller. The $640 battery has lasted 6 years & 12000 miles. The Mac12t has the torque to pull me +60 lb groceries up any hill to 15%, but on damp grass the front tire slips at 4%.
What are you using for internet in the country? Starlink is about the cheapest non-wire service I know of but you cannot turn it off 5 months a year. When I had DSL on phone wire in town dancing ads made websites take forever to load. In town ATT has fiber to within 3 blocks of my house, speed is amazing. I'm dark out at the summer property, except one bar cell phone service. I could not see a smart phone, I use a flip phone that I don't need to see. It is always in my pocket if I fall off the bike, or worse a car knocks me into the ditch.
 
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Jeez, that is a horrible story. I am shocked at your sister's mean behavior; of course she knew. I used to raise dairy goats, organically as well, and I have always found goat people to be generous, helpful and kind. But there are always exceptions. I know how you suffered; it's happened to me and even Benadryl didn't help! Your sister, and her goats, are lucky that you were good enough to continue milking despite your suffering. Four days without being milked would have put a big dent in their milk production for the rest of the lactation, or even caused some mastitis, but you were caring enough about how the animals would have suffered, no doubt. Bless you! It's unfortunate that it turned you off of goats milk, I sure miss it. I can't drink cows milk, I have to culture it by making yogurt to digest it.

Hey spokewrench, what part of the country are you in?
I agree with BurroBabe. Such a horrible story... The word evil comes to mind.
 
Even though I am surprised Bosch is making their motors in Hungary; I thought they were a German company.
With a smile, I'll respond with a similar quote: 'I'm surprised Boeing is making its components in North Carolina; I thought it was a State of Washington company with its headquarters in Virginia' :) The European Union is a single market, same as The United States is.

Would you happen to know if any of the manufacturers you listed make motors for conversions?
None of them. These companies would not take a risk of selling their motors to irresponsible individuals, and the retail is not a good business model to them either. Interestingly, Bafang (that is a huge Chinese manufacturer of e-bike motors for retail) has opened its factory in Wrocław, Poland to bypass the trade restrictions for the "Chinese cr*p" imposed by the EU. Of course, Bafang motors made in the EU must conform to the European law, that is, are limited in power and the assisted e-bike speed.

I admit I didn't read this thread in the detail. Someone mentioned you could try a cargo e-bike. How well does the Specialized Globe Haul match your criteria?
 
I hope no one gives you s*it about saying it. It's valid. But I'm trying to learn what my options are, get suggestions that I can investigate, and have already been given some options I never would have thought of. I need to know what options there are. I live far from any bike shops, over 100 mi from anywhere that has shops with a selection of ebikes, and I don't own a car or live anywhere I can even get a bus. So, as long as there are people willing to share their knowledge or experience, I'm listening. Isn't that what a forum is for?
Buy a Lectric light. I think they even have a step thru version. 20 inch tires. Probably cost you 800 bucks. Baby steps...
 
Life is too short to spend this much time trying to figure out what Ebike to purchase. I heard someone say once, paralysis by analysis. Buy a bike. If you don't like it sell it and buy a different bike. I'm sure I will get grief from the softies here, but jeeze louise, s*it or get off the pot...
isn't this her thread?
 
BikerG,
Could you please tell me what OP stands for?
As for stack heights, that is not a problem for me, nor for anyone whose body proportions are short inseam & long torso. In fact, it is an advantage.
As for stack height having anything to do with standover height, it doesn't. I have a mountain bike with a triangle frame and a shock fork, with plenty of standover height. I also have a hybrid with a shock fork, same thing.
OP: Original Poster
 
Just breezed through this thread, did not read every word of every post.

At one point, you asked about builders. Pedaluma is a forum member who builds bikes based on the TSDZ2B platform (torque-sensing mid-drive), and he built a 42 lb hard-tail for me, shipped it to Los Angeles at a reasonable cost. The only issue I've had is one we knew about from the beginning (and decided to live with, for now): a chainline issue due to the extra-wide bottom bracket on the donor bike. I need to replace the cluster eventually and go to 9 speed with some kind of offset so I can use 1st and so 2nd is less prone to chain drop, but again, that was a known hazard. It's been my daily driver the last 8 months and I've had no problem with it. With 7ah battery, I get 35+ miles of range with a lot of hills, some of them quite steep, but substantial human effort for the last 1/3 of the charge. He also can provide a 10Ah battery, but how that would fit on a small donor bike, I couldn't say.

He does cool things like pack the motor in grease so it won't overheat, and routes cables internally. Sometimes, he won't attach the speed sensor, and there's some controversy about how this affects the range and power delivery. Some folks say this motor is more efficient if you keep the speed sensor and let it do its thing, while others feel like it's needless complexity, draws more power ultimately, you won't be breaking 28 MPH anyway with normal MTB gearing ratios, and you're better off without it. He would probably build it either way if you asked him to, but IDK for sure.

To me, the unrestricted TSDZ power delivery took a lot of getting used to, but my bike is also a 29er (not sure I'd make that choice again, though there are pros and cons). At first, it seemed wacky to me-- sometimes like a 40nm motor, sometimes like a 90nm motor-- but I kind of learned to gear down and power up, and now it's a lot smoother and consistent without losing range. When I'm running late and need to haul ass, and I get the 29'er up to 26 MPH on relatively flat terrain, it's actually kind of scary, I'm like, "I definitely don't need more power than this on any eBike ever." But climbing in the wrong gear, or shifting late, I start working pretty hard on the steeps-- and it's not an easy problem to correct, given that it's hard to downshift under load (on any mid-drive, really) if your pedaling speed drops too low. Get it right before you start the hill = no problem, though I'll still break a sweat if I do a lot of climbing, for sure. (I'm 67 and pretty fit.)

The thing about doing an experimental build-- which mine is, and which yours would be-- is that you really can't account for every variable, and you can't ride and test the bike before delivery. For me, this worked out well, but issues can come up during design that you didn't expect. On the one hand, since you've built bikes yourself, Pedaluma might be a good fit. On the other, you probably know enough to guess that you can't predict exactly how a job like this is gonna work out working with someone remotely. But he's a great guy to work with, very detail-oriented, answers questions promptly, does his homework.
 
With a smile, I'll respond with a similar quote: 'I'm surprised Boeing is making its components in North Carolina; I thought it was a State of Washington company with its headquarters in Virginia' :) The European Union is a single market, same as The United States is.


None of them. These companies would not take a risk of selling their motors to irresponsible individuals, and the retail is not a good business model to them either. Interestingly, Bafang (that is a huge Chinese manufacturer of e-bike motors for retail) has opened its factory in Wrocław, Poland to bypass the trade restrictions for the "Chinese cr*p" imposed by the EU. Of course, Bafang motors made in the EU must conform to the European law, that is, are limited in power and the assisted e-bike speed.

I admit I didn't read this thread in the detail. Someone mentioned you could try a cargo e-bike. How well does the Specialized Globe Haul match your criteria?
Ha, you got me there, stefan. Yes, I wasn't thinking of the EU structure. You realize, most of my life was pre-EU. And as far as looking at states in the US as one looks at countries in the EU, we just don't see it that way. Despite some states being larger than some european countries, our history of federal power in more spheres than the economic makes us not see an equivalency. BTW, different parts of Boeing aircraft are made in more places than NC. (I was told that I cannot divulge such knowledge but, their engines are made elsewhere.)

Now, I'd feel better about buying a Bafang motor kit made in Poland to the exacting EU standards!


As for cargo ebikes, can I say it any louder? NO, NO, NO, I DON'T WANT A CARGO BIKE, I DON'T NEED A CARGO BIKE, I WON'T RIDE ON 20" WHEELS!
I admit, I did ask for opinions, but I have voiced my objections so many times. Just because I sometimes will be carrying groceries, and sometimes will need to travel farther, is not the same thing as all the time. And I don't load weight on my bike. For loads, I will pull a trailer. To go to a friend's house, or the library, or an appointment, it's traveling light and often shorter distances. And I still have plenty of power in my legs and want to use them, just not slogging on a tank.
One other suggestion someone made, or two someones (one on another forum) that I found useful is the idea of having two batteries. The second one to take along for longer trips and to have as a backup if something goes wrong with the first. That way, I'm lighter on shorter trips and don't need to have extreme range limiting my choice of bikes. Makes sense to me. Now I just need to figure out just how much torque I really need for the hills here.
 
Maybe Aventon's Pace 500 at 52 pounds. It looks like a 16" standover. There's a dealer in Sayre and another in Elmira.
I soon switched the shifter and the tires on my Abound. It wasn't such a big deal. The torque sensor BB didn't last long, but I'll bet you don't pedal as hard as I do!
I tried the Aventons first of all. I just couldn't stand the way the assist surges forward, even in PAS 1, even if I was moving already with no assist. And they're not tuneable. Very unnatural feel. I hated it.
 
This may be totally not what @BurroBabe wants to hear, but her needs and requirements are far enough outside of the norm that manufacturers cater to that I would pick a bicycle she likes that does what she wants, and convert it to an ebike. Bearing in mind that the weight requirement is likely to still go out the window thanks to the need for range, which in turn will crank up the weight.

My daily driver's battery weighs more than my entire road bike, which with its magnesium-alloy 59cm frame weighs in just a hair under 20 lbs.
View attachment 175833
Not saying you have to go so big on the battery just making an amusing (to me at least) observation.

I'm going to have to admit I didn't pore over the entire saga of this thread. Hopefully I've skimmed it closely enough to not commit too many mortal sins in the following recommendation. Maybe there's somewhere to go here with a conversion, because for a manufactured ebike... you can forget it I think. A conversion is going to get you VERY close to your desired result out of the gate with the motor and battery coming in after the fact very nicely if you do the bike right.

So starting off, it seems what is desired is a gravel bike that can do duty as a touring bike, with panniers. Since a suspension fork is desired, I'll write off the front rack and panniers (which served me very well I might add before I went to dedicated cargo builds, but lets walk before we fly). Next we need something that is very nearly unheard of in the ebike world: A frame sized for the smaller rider. This will get us out of the 20" wheel size, ideally.

Surly bikes are built with really strong chromoly frames, and quality components. I have a BBSHD-powered Big Fat Dummy which I use for bikepacking, but thats obviously an insane choice not on the menu here. What Surly DOES have that is smack in the ballpark is the Grappler.


A dedicated drop-bar trail bike with 27.5" wheels and 2.5" tires. And a frame that is sized down to XS which is suited to riders whose height starts ad about 4'7". The size SM is rated for 5'0". Standover is 2.2 to 2.5 feet. So we've come up with a bike that actually fits the rider (something ebike manufacturers as a general rule don't do) and have thus bypassed the circus-clown-bike wheel size. Check the frame geometry for stuff like reach, but for my money, you should always expect to change stem length and maybe even swap the seatpost to deal with a different (or zero) setback.

The Grappler uses the inexpensive Microshift Advent X drivetrain, which is extremely reliable and has an 11-48T hardened steel rear cluster, which will be really important when it comes to working in the motor. I use Advent X on my own Bullitt hill climbing cargo bike where I am dealing with 500 lbs of total system weight and hills as steep as 16%. So if it can handle that and shift smoothly it sure can handle this lighter duty. The frame has M5 bosses upper and lower so you can mount a serious rack on it (an Axiom Streamliner rated for 50 kg would be my choice), and do panniers of any sort without issue. The front fork is a standard Surly with barnacles everywhere so you can also mount a front rack (I use a Blackburn Outpost on Surly forks), but I expect that fork is going to be expendable in favor of a suspension fork, sadly. The WTB rims used have a 40mm internal width which will let you easily handle a 3.0" tire (the bike comes with 2.5's which might be plenty for you).

For something a little closer to a road-tourer (and a little less happy with washboard) there's the Surly Disc Trucker. For a flat bar version of the Grappler, there's the Bridge Club, although neither of those have drivetrains I would trust with the next step: Adding a mid drive motor.

Again assuming the Grappler is the choice, my personal pick would be a Bafang BBSHD, which you would then adjust to turn it into an ideal cyclists' configuration. I wrote that up here and using all of the settings I list in that article, you would adjust the one setting noted in that article to ramp the overall pedal assist output up or down. My minimum setting feeds a maximum of about 450w peak to the motor so its quite tame, which in turn extends range by quite a bit. I suspect you would pick something in the middle, or go all out and just use the lower PAS levels, which is what I do in hills.


You could also skimp a little and use a BBS02, which is cheaper and less robust. For a bike I want to depend on, I would always choose the BBSHD. Its a trooper and you can't break it. Not so with a BBS02 which can be fried if you beat on it too hard (which you are very unlikely to do but still...). Dialed back the BBSHD will be operating at 20-50% of its capacity which just means it will never stress itself and last forever.

Since these bikes all have triangles without shocks in them - and they are actual triangles - I would pick the battery from USA-manufacturer Bicycle Motor Works after I have acquired the frame and know the dimensions. An in-triangle battery bag would hold it (do NOT put it on the back rack). Triangle size on an XS frame may make it a lot smarter to pick a Small size instead, or even a step up from that to Medium if you can get away with it. Check the frame geometry charts to see about that.

As for a suspension fork... well like I said before I would personally go for a suspension stem from Kinekt first, and keep the fork as-is at least to start. But the axle-to-crown on the Grappler is 420mm. Surly says thats the max height for a suspension fork, but I think you can fudge that a little. I'll leave fork choice to you.

If you don't convert a proper, quality bike yourself I think the list of compromises and things you find undesirable will be a lot longer.
M@Robertson, Hooray! That expert builder someone mentioned took notice! Thank you thank you thank you.
I took a while to answer because I wanted to research your suggestions and I spent 2 hours today measuring two bikes I have that might be useable.
First off, "This may be totally not what @BurroBabe wants to hear, but..."

Oh yes, I do want to hear what you have to say; you're the expert with experience!
Some of what you say will lead to some more questions from me; I hope you don't mind. I'm the kind of person who wants to understand how things work, otherwise, I can't remember. I need to know the "why's" in order to get the picture.

As for a frame, finally, someone else who loves chomoly! I really don't understand why all the ebikes I have seen/read about seem to have aluminum frames. My favorite bikes are chromoly, my Trek 520 touring and my Jamis Exile mtb. I thoroughly looked at all 3 Surly bikes you listed. Only one would fit and I can’t really see spending that for a frame when I already have many that fit and perhaps 2 or 3 that might work.

First question is, would you rule out a good aluminum frame? It seems that most of the ebikes, even high end, are made of aluminum. Granted, they are probably made of heavier tubing and more sturdily than non-electric bikes I would suppose. But I am a light rider.

One of the bikes I was considering converting is the Trek 200 Navigator, which is aluminum, slanted top tube (mid-step), 14 1/2" (size), RST shock fork with what I think are all the places to put a disc brake, Matrix 550 rims about 1" wide measured on the spoke side, no name hubs, 26 x 1.95" tires, which is all the width I ever want! Currently has 3 x 7 sp Shimano Acera derailleur but the shifters are SRAM grip shifters. The Bottom bracket is 74mm wide. Hung on my milk scale, it weighs about 35# with a rear rack and Bontrager comfort tires. With the 16# the BBSHD kit adds, that will bring it up to about 51# without a battery. That's getting up there....

Trek 200 Navigator.jpgTrek 200 RST fork.jpgTrek 200 rear stay.jpg

My other choice is a Jamis Exile mtb. It has a chromoly butted triangle frame. It's 13", has a Manitou Spyder fork which doesn't appear to have anything to attach a disc brake to. The rear stays have 2 drilled holes and another with a bolt in it on the inside of both sides. The front fork is about 16” axle to inside the top arch. Gears are 3 x 8, Shimano STX RC front crank and derailleur and the rear derailleur is just stamped “ integrated 8SK”. It also has stupid grip shifters which I cannot twist (My wrists are destroyed). I would need to change the flat bar to a riser with some ergonomic sweep as well. It’s bottom bracket is 69mm wide, too narrow for the BBSHD according to Bafang’s website. I couldn’t find the other motor listed there. This bike has Sunrims CR18 and Parallax hubs. I’s lighter, without a rear carrier and with light street tires (also 26 x 1.95”) it weighs about 28.5#.

Jamis Exile.jpgExile rear stay.jpg

I also have a Trek 520, their touring bike and my favorite in the past, but of course it has a rigid fork and narrow rims. I don’t know how much wider wheels it would accommodate. I already switched out the drop bars to risers and kept the lovely bar-end shifters. I don’t know if this bike is a possibility. I definitely need a telescoping fork for my severely compromised wrist. If so, I'll have to do more measuring.

I checked out the Microshift website to see the Advent X drivetrains. They don’t come in 8 speed but they do have other groupsets in 3 X 8 and 3 x 7. And I'm fine putting on a new group set that can handle the extra torque from a motor.

So M@, what do you think? Any of these bikes seem like they might work for conversion? And thanks in advance for any other advice or recommendations you can offer.
 
BTW, different parts of Boeing aircraft are made in more places than NC. (I was told that I cannot divulge such knowledge but, their engines are made elsewhere.)
Oh, it is a public knowledge where Boeing parts are being made... :)

Now, I'd feel better about buying a Bafang motor kit made in Poland to the exacting EU standards!
Nah. Bafang parts you are getting in the United States are made in China ;) You wouldn't like a 250 W motor limited to 25 km/h for sure!

I can see you have got attracted to the idea of bike conversion, that is, slapping a motor, a battery and a controller onto a bike that has never been designed for the role. I was in that position in July/August 2019 myself. Then my manager said: 'Stefan, you are too a valuable person for the company I could lose you. Don't I pay you well enough so you could buy a production e-bike?' He was so right! I know I am hated by DIYers in these Fora but let me tell you this: If you are ready to run around with a multimeter instead of having the battery % on the display, go to the Dark Side :) Ready for CANBUS or UART programming? Join the Stormtroopers! :D No good Jedi would go that way! :)

I understand your main issue is you are a petite person. Have you looked to Specialized Como? It is a high quality production e-bike that might give you exactly what you want. Regarding multiple batteries, yes, I use them for a very long or extremely steep long rides. Carrying a spare battery in a pannier. (Having gained the experience, I ride more and more on a single battery with a growing range: I can tune the Specialized motor from an app).

Specialized: Design, quality, performance, local service, the best warranty in the world.

1715837030518.png

Right: My friend Anita riding an older Como (non Low-Step) on our group ride in a demanding terrain.
 
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I've had that experience. Touching the pedal in PAS 1 put 350 watts on the wheel. Above all, that was unsafe. But it wasn't an Aventon.

Are you sure you tested a 2023 model with a torque sensor? There are no PAS numbers. The levels are Off, Eco, Tour, Sport, and Turbo. I came from single-speed e-bikes where I was used to applying lots of torque to climb hills with no assistance or at PAS 1. I would have preferred less assistance, but there was no surge. It responded immediately to changes in pedal pressure. Because I use PAS less than most and when I do, I may want less than most, it worked better for me to remove the torque sensor and depend on feathering the throttle when needed. That's an example of an alteration to suit an individual.

I see that e-bikes are a sideline for the shops nearest you. I wonder if you tried a 2022 model.
I am sure that both the Aventon bikes I tried had torque sensors. That was my first question. And yes, I was referring to ECO as pas 1, it did say Eco, Tour, Sport, etc. They only let me ride in the gravel area behind the shop and I always started with NO assist, I do on every bike I try, I don't want any surprises. As soon as I moved to eco, even without my putting much pressure on the pedals, the bikes surged unnaturally. Maybe surge is a strong word, but I am an experienced rider and that's what it felt like to me. Compared to the specialized Turbo Vado, it was like riding a runaway horse. The Vado was so smooth I couldn't even sense the assist, I just felt 30 years younger!
 
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