8+ months of research, 100s of hours, know what I need & want but can't find it

[John from Connecticut]

Jeez, that is a horrible story. I am shocked at your sister's mean behavior; of course she knew. I used to raise dairy goats, organically as well, and I have always found goat people to be generous, helpful and kind. But there are always exceptions. I know how you suffered; it's happened to me and even Benadryl didn't help! Your sister, and her goats, are lucky that you were good enough to continue milking despite your suffering. Four days without being milked would have put a big dent in their milk production for the rest of the lactation, or even caused some mastitis, but you were caring enough about how the animals would have suffered, no doubt. Bless you! It's unfortunate that it turned you off of goats milk, I sure miss it. I can't drink cows milk, I have to culture it by making yogurt to digest it.

Hey spokewrench, what part of the country are you in?

I agree with BurroBabe. Such a horrible story... The word evil comes to mind.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Even though I am surprised Bosch is making their motors in Hungary; I thought they were a German company.

With a smile, I'll respond with a similar quote: 'I'm surprised Boeing is making its components in North Carolina; I thought it was a State of Washington company with its headquarters in Virginia' The European Union is a single market, same as The United States is.

Would you happen to know if any of the manufacturers you listed make motors for conversions?

None of them. These companies would not take a risk of selling their motors to irresponsible individuals, and the retail is not a good business model to them either. Interestingly, Bafang (that is a huge Chinese manufacturer of e-bike motors for retail) has opened its factory in Wrocław, Poland to bypass the trade restrictions for the "Chinese cr*p" imposed by the EU. Of course, Bafang motors made in the EU must conform to the European law, that is, are limited in power and the assisted e-bike speed.

I admit I didn't read this thread in the detail. Someone mentioned you could try a cargo e-bike. How well does the Specialized Globe Haul match your criteria?

 

[Taylor57]

I hope no one gives you s*it about saying it. It's valid. But I'm trying to learn what my options are, get suggestions that I can investigate, and have already been given some options I never would have thought of. I need to know what options there are. I live far from any bike shops, over 100 mi from anywhere that has shops with a selection of ebikes, and I don't own a car or live anywhere I can even get a bus. So, as long as there are people willing to share their knowledge or experience, I'm listening. Isn't that what a forum is for?

Buy a Lectric light. I think they even have a step thru version. 20 inch tires. Probably cost you 800 bucks. Baby steps...

 

[BikerG]

BikerG,
Could you please tell me what OP stands for?
As for stack heights, that is not a problem for me, nor for anyone whose body proportions are short inseam & long torso. In fact, it is an advantage.
As for stack height having anything to do with standover height, it doesn't. I have a mountain bike with a triangle frame and a shock fork, with plenty of standover height. I also have a hybrid with a shock fork, same thing.

OP: Original Poster

 

[Stefan Mikes]

@BurroBabe:
A Specialized Como?

 

[Catalyzt]

Just breezed through this thread, did not read every word of every post.

At one point, you asked about builders. Pedaluma is a forum member who builds bikes based on the TSDZ2B platform (torque-sensing mid-drive), and he built a 42 lb hard-tail for me, shipped it to Los Angeles at a reasonable cost. The only issue I've had is one we knew about from the beginning (and decided to live with, for now): a chainline issue due to the extra-wide bottom bracket on the donor bike. I need to replace the cluster eventually and go to 9 speed with some kind of offset so I can use 1st and so 2nd is less prone to chain drop, but again, that was a known hazard. It's been my daily driver the last 8 months and I've had no problem with it. With 7ah battery, I get 35+ miles of range with a lot of hills, some of them quite steep, but substantial human effort for the last 1/3 of the charge. He also can provide a 10Ah battery, but how that would fit on a small donor bike, I couldn't say.

He does cool things like pack the motor in grease so it won't overheat, and routes cables internally. Sometimes, he won't attach the speed sensor, and there's some controversy about how this affects the range and power delivery. Some folks say this motor is more efficient if you keep the speed sensor and let it do its thing, while others feel like it's needless complexity, draws more power ultimately, you won't be breaking 28 MPH anyway with normal MTB gearing ratios, and you're better off without it. He would probably build it either way if you asked him to, but IDK for sure.

To me, the unrestricted TSDZ power delivery took a lot of getting used to, but my bike is also a 29er (not sure I'd make that choice again, though there are pros and cons). At first, it seemed wacky to me-- sometimes like a 40nm motor, sometimes like a 90nm motor-- but I kind of learned to gear down and power up, and now it's a lot smoother and consistent without losing range. When I'm running late and need to haul ass, and I get the 29'er up to 26 MPH on relatively flat terrain, it's actually kind of scary, I'm like, "I definitely don't need more power than this on any eBike ever." But climbing in the wrong gear, or shifting late, I start working pretty hard on the steeps-- and it's not an easy problem to correct, given that it's hard to downshift under load (on any mid-drive, really) if your pedaling speed drops too low. Get it right before you start the hill = no problem, though I'll still break a sweat if I do a lot of climbing, for sure. (I'm 67 and pretty fit.)

The thing about doing an experimental build-- which mine is, and which yours would be-- is that you really can't account for every variable, and you can't ride and test the bike before delivery. For me, this worked out well, but issues can come up during design that you didn't expect. On the one hand, since you've built bikes yourself, Pedaluma might be a good fit. On the other, you probably know enough to guess that you can't predict exactly how a job like this is gonna work out working with someone remotely. But he's a great guy to work with, very detail-oriented, answers questions promptly, does his homework.

 

[BurroBabe]

With a smile, I'll respond with a similar quote: 'I'm surprised Boeing is making its components in North Carolina; I thought it was a State of Washington company with its headquarters in Virginia' The European Union is a single market, same as The United States is.


None of them. These companies would not take a risk of selling their motors to irresponsible individuals, and the retail is not a good business model to them either. Interestingly, Bafang (that is a huge Chinese manufacturer of e-bike motors for retail) has opened its factory in Wrocław, Poland to bypass the trade restrictions for the "Chinese cr*p" imposed by the EU. Of course, Bafang motors made in the EU must conform to the European law, that is, are limited in power and the assisted e-bike speed.

I admit I didn't read this thread in the detail. Someone mentioned you could try a cargo e-bike. How well does the Specialized Globe Haul match your criteria?

Ha, you got me there, stefan. Yes, I wasn't thinking of the EU structure. You realize, most of my life was pre-EU. And as far as looking at states in the US as one looks at countries in the EU, we just don't see it that way. Despite some states being larger than some european countries, our history of federal power in more spheres than the economic makes us not see an equivalency. BTW, different parts of Boeing aircraft are made in more places than NC. (I was told that I cannot divulge such knowledge but, their engines are made elsewhere.)

Now, I'd feel better about buying a Bafang motor kit made in Poland to the exacting EU standards!


As for cargo ebikes, can I say it any louder? NO, NO, NO, I DON'T WANT A CARGO BIKE, I DON'T NEED A CARGO BIKE, I WON'T RIDE ON 20" WHEELS!
I admit, I did ask for opinions, but I have voiced my objections so many times. Just because I sometimes will be carrying groceries, and sometimes will need to travel farther, is not the same thing as all the time. And I don't load weight on my bike. For loads, I will pull a trailer. To go to a friend's house, or the library, or an appointment, it's traveling light and often shorter distances. And I still have plenty of power in my legs and want to use them, just not slogging on a tank.
One other suggestion someone made, or two someones (one on another forum) that I found useful is the idea of having two batteries. The second one to take along for longer trips and to have as a backup if something goes wrong with the first. That way, I'm lighter on shorter trips and don't need to have extreme range limiting my choice of bikes. Makes sense to me. Now I just need to figure out just how much torque I really need for the hills here.

 

[BurroBabe]

Maybe Aventon's Pace 500 at 52 pounds. It looks like a 16" standover. There's a dealer in Sayre and another in Elmira.
I soon switched the shifter and the tires on my Abound. It wasn't such a big deal. The torque sensor BB didn't last long, but I'll bet you don't pedal as hard as I do!

I tried the Aventons first of all. I just couldn't stand the way the assist surges forward, even in PAS 1, even if I was moving already with no assist. And they're not tuneable. Very unnatural feel. I hated it.

 

[BurroBabe]

This may be totally not what @BurroBabe wants to hear, but her needs and requirements are far enough outside of the norm that manufacturers cater to that I would pick a bicycle she likes that does what she wants, and convert it to an ebike. Bearing in mind that the weight requirement is likely to still go out the window thanks to the need for range, which in turn will crank up the weight.

My daily driver's battery weighs more than my entire road bike, which with its magnesium-alloy 59cm frame weighs in just a hair under 20 lbs.
View attachment 175833
Not saying you have to go so big on the battery just making an amusing (to me at least) observation.

I'm going to have to admit I didn't pore over the entire saga of this thread. Hopefully I've skimmed it closely enough to not commit too many mortal sins in the following recommendation. Maybe there's somewhere to go here with a conversion, because for a manufactured ebike... you can forget it I think. A conversion is going to get you VERY close to your desired result out of the gate with the motor and battery coming in after the fact very nicely if you do the bike right.

So starting off, it seems what is desired is a gravel bike that can do duty as a touring bike, with panniers. Since a suspension fork is desired, I'll write off the front rack and panniers (which served me very well I might add before I went to dedicated cargo builds, but lets walk before we fly). Next we need something that is very nearly unheard of in the ebike world: A frame sized for the smaller rider. This will get us out of the 20" wheel size, ideally.

Surly bikes are built with really strong chromoly frames, and quality components. I have a BBSHD-powered Big Fat Dummy which I use for bikepacking, but thats obviously an insane choice not on the menu here. What Surly DOES have that is smack in the ballpark is the Grappler.

Grappler

Grappler is a drop-bar trail bike built for single-track sessions, all-day dirt rides, and bikepacking excursions.

surlybikes.com

A dedicated drop-bar trail bike with 27.5" wheels and 2.5" tires. And a frame that is sized down to XS which is suited to riders whose height starts ad about 4'7". The size SM is rated for 5'0". Standover is 2.2 to 2.5 feet. So we've come up with a bike that actually fits the rider (something ebike manufacturers as a general rule don't do) and have thus bypassed the circus-clown-bike wheel size. Check the frame geometry for stuff like reach, but for my money, you should always expect to change stem length and maybe even swap the seatpost to deal with a different (or zero) setback.

The Grappler uses the inexpensive Microshift Advent X drivetrain, which is extremely reliable and has an 11-48T hardened steel rear cluster, which will be really important when it comes to working in the motor. I use Advent X on my own Bullitt hill climbing cargo bike where I am dealing with 500 lbs of total system weight and hills as steep as 16%. So if it can handle that and shift smoothly it sure can handle this lighter duty. The frame has M5 bosses upper and lower so you can mount a serious rack on it (an Axiom Streamliner rated for 50 kg would be my choice), and do panniers of any sort without issue. The front fork is a standard Surly with barnacles everywhere so you can also mount a front rack (I use a Blackburn Outpost on Surly forks), but I expect that fork is going to be expendable in favor of a suspension fork, sadly. The WTB rims used have a 40mm internal width which will let you easily handle a 3.0" tire (the bike comes with 2.5's which might be plenty for you).

For something a little closer to a road-tourer (and a little less happy with washboard) there's the Surly Disc Trucker. For a flat bar version of the Grappler, there's the Bridge Club, although neither of those have drivetrains I would trust with the next step: Adding a mid drive motor.

Again assuming the Grappler is the choice, my personal pick would be a Bafang BBSHD, which you would then adjust to turn it into an ideal cyclists' configuration. I wrote that up here and using all of the settings I list in that article, you would adjust the one setting noted in that article to ramp the overall pedal assist output up or down. My minimum setting feeds a maximum of about 450w peak to the motor so its quite tame, which in turn extends range by quite a bit. I suspect you would pick something in the middle, or go all out and just use the lower PAS levels, which is what I do in hills.

Private Site

You could also skimp a little and use a BBS02, which is cheaper and less robust. For a bike I want to depend on, I would always choose the BBSHD. Its a trooper and you can't break it. Not so with a BBS02 which can be fried if you beat on it too hard (which you are very unlikely to do but still...). Dialed back the BBSHD will be operating at 20-50% of its capacity which just means it will never stress itself and last forever.

Since these bikes all have triangles without shocks in them - and they are actual triangles - I would pick the battery from USA-manufacturer Bicycle Motor Works after I have acquired the frame and know the dimensions. An in-triangle battery bag would hold it (do NOT put it on the back rack). Triangle size on an XS frame may make it a lot smarter to pick a Small size instead, or even a step up from that to Medium if you can get away with it. Check the frame geometry charts to see about that.

As for a suspension fork... well like I said before I would personally go for a suspension stem from Kinekt first, and keep the fork as-is at least to start. But the axle-to-crown on the Grappler is 420mm. Surly says thats the max height for a suspension fork, but I think you can fudge that a little. I'll leave fork choice to you.

If you don't convert a proper, quality bike yourself I think the list of compromises and things you find undesirable will be a lot longer.

Private Site

M@Robertson, Hooray! That expert builder someone mentioned took notice! Thank you thank you thank you.
I took a while to answer because I wanted to research your suggestions and I spent 2 hours today measuring two bikes I have that might be useable.
First off, "This may be totally not what @BurroBabe wants to hear, but..."

Oh yes, I do want to hear what you have to say; you're the expert with experience!
Some of what you say will lead to some more questions from me; I hope you don't mind. I'm the kind of person who wants to understand how things work, otherwise, I can't remember. I need to know the "why's" in order to get the picture.

As for a frame, finally, someone else who loves chomoly! I really don't understand why all the ebikes I have seen/read about seem to have aluminum frames. My favorite bikes are chromoly, my Trek 520 touring and my Jamis Exile mtb. I thoroughly looked at all 3 Surly bikes you listed. Only one would fit and I can’t really see spending that for a frame when I already have many that fit and perhaps 2 or 3 that might work.

First question is, would you rule out a good aluminum frame? It seems that most of the ebikes, even high end, are made of aluminum. Granted, they are probably made of heavier tubing and more sturdily than non-electric bikes I would suppose. But I am a light rider.

One of the bikes I was considering converting is the Trek 200 Navigator, which is aluminum, slanted top tube (mid-step), 14 1/2" (size), RST shock fork with what I think are all the places to put a disc brake, Matrix 550 rims about 1" wide measured on the spoke side, no name hubs, 26 x 1.95" tires, which is all the width I ever want! Currently has 3 x 7 sp Shimano Acera derailleur but the shifters are SRAM grip shifters. The Bottom bracket is 74mm wide. Hung on my milk scale, it weighs about 35# with a rear rack and Bontrager comfort tires. With the 16# the BBSHD kit adds, that will bring it up to about 51# without a battery. That's getting up there....



My other choice is a Jamis Exile mtb. It has a chromoly butted triangle frame. It's 13", has a Manitou Spyder fork which doesn't appear to have anything to attach a disc brake to. The rear stays have 2 drilled holes and another with a bolt in it on the inside of both sides. The front fork is about 16” axle to inside the top arch. Gears are 3 x 8, Shimano STX RC front crank and derailleur and the rear derailleur is just stamped “ integrated 8SK”. It also has stupid grip shifters which I cannot twist (My wrists are destroyed). I would need to change the flat bar to a riser with some ergonomic sweep as well. It’s bottom bracket is 69mm wide, too narrow for the BBSHD according to Bafang’s website. I couldn’t find the other motor listed there. This bike has Sunrims CR18 and Parallax hubs. I’s lighter, without a rear carrier and with light street tires (also 26 x 1.95”) it weighs about 28.5#.



I also have a Trek 520, their touring bike and my favorite in the past, but of course it has a rigid fork and narrow rims. I don’t know how much wider wheels it would accommodate. I already switched out the drop bars to risers and kept the lovely bar-end shifters. I don’t know if this bike is a possibility. I definitely need a telescoping fork for my severely compromised wrist. If so, I'll have to do more measuring.

I checked out the Microshift website to see the Advent X drivetrains. They don’t come in 8 speed but they do have other groupsets in 3 X 8 and 3 x 7. And I'm fine putting on a new group set that can handle the extra torque from a motor.

So M@, what do you think? Any of these bikes seem like they might work for conversion? And thanks in advance for any other advice or recommendations you can offer.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

BTW, different parts of Boeing aircraft are made in more places than NC. (I was told that I cannot divulge such knowledge but, their engines are made elsewhere.)

Oh, it is a public knowledge where Boeing parts are being made...

Now, I'd feel better about buying a Bafang motor kit made in Poland to the exacting EU standards!

Nah. Bafang parts you are getting in the United States are made in China You wouldn't like a 250 W motor limited to 25 km/h for sure!

I can see you have got attracted to the idea of bike conversion, that is, slapping a motor, a battery and a controller onto a bike that has never been designed for the role. I was in that position in July/August 2019 myself. Then my manager said: 'Stefan, you are too a valuable person for the company I could lose you. Don't I pay you well enough so you could buy a production e-bike?' He was so right! I know I am hated by DIYers in these Fora but let me tell you this: If you are ready to run around with a multimeter instead of having the battery % on the display, go to the Dark Side Ready for CANBUS or UART programming? Join the Stormtroopers! No good Jedi would go that way!

I understand your main issue is you are a petite person. Have you looked to Specialized Como? It is a high quality production e-bike that might give you exactly what you want. Regarding multiple batteries, yes, I use them for a very long or extremely steep long rides. Carrying a spare battery in a pannier. (Having gained the experience, I ride more and more on a single battery with a growing range: I can tune the Specialized motor from an app).

Specialized: Design, quality, performance, local service, the best warranty in the world.

Right: My friend Anita riding an older Como (non Low-Step) on our group ride in a demanding terrain.

 

[BurroBabe]

I've had that experience. Touching the pedal in PAS 1 put 350 watts on the wheel. Above all, that was unsafe. But it wasn't an Aventon.

Are you sure you tested a 2023 model with a torque sensor? There are no PAS numbers. The levels are Off, Eco, Tour, Sport, and Turbo. I came from single-speed e-bikes where I was used to applying lots of torque to climb hills with no assistance or at PAS 1. I would have preferred less assistance, but there was no surge. It responded immediately to changes in pedal pressure. Because I use PAS less than most and when I do, I may want less than most, it worked better for me to remove the torque sensor and depend on feathering the throttle when needed. That's an example of an alteration to suit an individual.

I see that e-bikes are a sideline for the shops nearest you. I wonder if you tried a 2022 model.

I am sure that both the Aventon bikes I tried had torque sensors. That was my first question. And yes, I was referring to ECO as pas 1, it did say Eco, Tour, Sport, etc. They only let me ride in the gravel area behind the shop and I always started with NO assist, I do on every bike I try, I don't want any surprises. As soon as I moved to eco, even without my putting much pressure on the pedals, the bikes surged unnaturally. Maybe surge is a strong word, but I am an experienced rider and that's what it felt like to me. Compared to the specialized Turbo Vado, it was like riding a runaway horse. The Vado was so smooth I couldn't even sense the assist, I just felt 30 years younger!

 

[BurroBabe]

Oh, it is a public knowledge where Boeing parts are being made...


Nah. Bafang parts you are getting in the United States are made in China You wouldn't like a 250 W motor limited to 25 km/h for sure!

I can see you have got attracted to the idea of bike conversion, that is, slapping a motor, a battery and a controller onto a bike that has never been designed for the role. I was in that position in July/August 2019 myself. Then my manager said: 'Stefan, you are too a valuable person for the company I could lose you. Don't I pay you well enough so you could buy a production e-bike?' He was so right! I know I am hated by DIYers in these Fora but let me tell you this: If you are ready to run around with a multimeter instead of having the battery % on the display, go to the Dark Side Ready for CANBUS or UART programming? Join the Stormtroopers! No good Jedi would go that way!

I understand your main issue is you are a petite person. Have you looked to Specialized Como? It is a high quality production e-bike that might give you exactly what you want. Regarding multiple batteries, yes, I use them for a very long or extremely steep long rides. Carrying a spare battery in a pannier. (Having gained the experience, I ride more and more on a single battery with a growing range: I can tune the Specialized motor from an app).

Specialized: Design, quality, performance, local service, the best warranty in the world.

View attachment 175925
Right: My friend Anita riding an older Como (non Low-Step) on our group ride in a demanding terrain.

Stefan, you always make me smile with your witty comments!
You are not the first to suggest the Como. Perhaps I would consider it if I could try it out somewhere, but I haven't found any shops that carry the Specialized bikes. based on how wonderful the ride on the Vado 4.0 was, it is tempting. I wish Specialized made sizes down to XS. However, when I was trying Gazelles and found that none of the Medeo line in small had standover clearance (not even the mid-steps)
I tried out the C-8 or C-380 with belt drive. Besides the fact that I cannot use a twist grip to shift, I found the response kind of logey. I can't tell if that had to do with gearing distances being wider, the more uncomfortably upright position, or what, but I hated how the bike felt. There are too many variables and I cannot consider buying anything which I haven't ridden first.

And that, dear man, is where your other comment takes me. Slapping a motor on a bike I already have is also "buying a bike without riding it first" I guess, since I have no way of knowing how the assist will work for me. But at least I would know the bike fit. I don't see it as an ultimate solution but was considering the idea as a "first step" if it could be done cheaply enough. It seems I can get close to what I need if I spend enough money, but these bikes represent more than a half a year's total income. I could get what I need for so much less, so much more choice, if I were just "average" size.

And thanks for the lovely photos!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Stefan, you always make me smile with your witty comments!

Fun to talk with you!

Specialized Dealers Around Chemung NY

Starting from 44 miles away, and you also probably have a phone, and perhaps... well... a car? I am sure you know it but... Select the e-bike model and size in the Specialized website, then click Find In-Store. A Vado 4.0 ST size S is waiting for you in Binghamton NY

 

[Stefan Mikes]

but I don't know how to get a better controller for an Aventon.

Aha
Aha!
Hahaha!

Got a multimeter?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Yes! Can I put on a controller and a torque sensor?

The point for a good e-bike is you do not need to look for another controller, other sensors or display, and you do not need to run around with the multimeter

You just ride the good e-bike I have owned 4 production e-bikes since 2019, and have never needed to think of controller, display, battery or sensors, and I even do not own a multimeter I though Aventon was a production e-bike?!

 

[BurroBabe]

Fun to talk with you!

Specialized Dealers Around Chemung NY

Starting from 44 miles away, and you also probably have a phone, and perhaps... well... a car? I am sure you know it but... Select the e-bike model and size in the Specialized website, then click Find In-Store. A Vado 4.0 ST size S is waiting for you in Binghamton NY

I know that this is a tortuous multifarious thread but I know I have told the story at least once and referenced the problem with the Bado 4.0 a few times. I believe most of the story is in the very first post. The first ebike I bought, online, told it would fit, was a Vado 4.0. Loved how it rode, had zero clearance. In fact, the "step through" is a mid step with a steep top tube. It presses into my crotch and is hard against the entire front of my pubic bone. Any stop on uneven ground and I go over, a fast stop would be incredibly painful!

BUT WAIT!!! After I wrote the preceding paragraph I went to Specialized's website and looked again. The Vado I tried was a '22 model. They've changed the shape of the tubes and now the standover height is better. I called the store in Ithaca (Goddess knows how I will get there) and they have both a Vado and a Como in stock in Small! and the fellow told me that there are many variations on the Como; not all are belt drives. Woo Hoo! Thank you so much for giving me a push. I wouldn't have looked again except for considering everything you have said here very thoughtful and valid. At least hitchhiking (if that's what it will take) 40 some odd miles is better than 140 miles! And Specialized website is running sales on some of these too. Happy Day! (Okay, okay, bbabe, take it easy, don't count those chicks just yet. . .)

 

[BurroBabe]

The point for a good e-bike is you do not need to look for another controller, other sensors or display, and you do not need to run around with the multimeter

You just ride the good e-bike I have owned 4 production e-bikes since 2019, and have never needed to think of controller, display, battery or sensors, and I even do not own a multimeter I though Aventon was a production e-bike?!

Please share with us the four production ebikes you have owned and liked! Are any of them available in the US or they only EU treasures?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Please share with us the four production ebikes you have owned and liked! Are any of them available in the US or they only EU treasures?

• Lovelec Diadem, a Czech made basic hub-drive motor e-bike with simple electronics and display. I could live with that e-bike if my appetite wouldn't have grown Besides, it is the only Direct-To-Customer e-bike I own. However, the manufacturer is only located 400 km away, and they are great on the remote support. (A local e-bike brand). I have lent that e-bike to a friend for a long use.
• Specialized Vado 5.0 ST, which has turned into the current Specialized Vado 6.0 ST. It is broadly speaking like the U.S. Class 3 Gen 1 Vado 5.0 ST only with EU features required from a 45 km/h/28 mph e-bike. (Of course current Gen 2, Class 3 Vados are widely available in the U.S.)
• Giant Trance E+ 2 Pro. A lovely, full-suspension e-MTB. I soon realised I didn't really want to become an MTB-er, so gave that e-bike to my brother who put it into a good use.
• Specialized Vado SL 4.0 EQ (easily available in the U.S. as Class 3, also in Step-Through). I eventually converted it into a non-EQ sporty e-bike

Currently, the big Vado is my heavy duty e-bike: grocery shopping, very long rides (with extra battery), high mountain roads. While Vado SL is my sports/recreation machine I love riding on gravel and in rough terrain

Vado 6.0: On a workout with road cyclists 'Stefan is the only roadie that comes to a workout with a pannier!'

At the finish line of a 163 mile gravel race, Vado SL. It required as many as four Range Extender batteries and overnight recharging!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I'm sure a good bike will let you ride over 370 miles of hills on a charge.

Ya, if it weighs 100 pounds then maybe. Of course on the throtle only.

 

[m@Robertson]

Oh yes, I do want to hear what you have to say; you're the expert with experience!

First of all lets acknowledge that several others in this group of mutually self-appointed experts just threw up in their mouth a little. This makes my day . Wait did I say that last part out loud?

Some of what you say will lead to some more questions from me; I hope you don't mind. I'm the kind of person who wants to understand how things work, otherwise, I can't remember. I need to know the "why's" in order to get the picture.

Absolutely the best way to go about things. The more you know the less you'll want to take what someone else chooses to give you and tell you thats what you really wanted, and to forget about that other stuff on your shopping list.

As for a frame, finally, someone else who loves chomoly!

This seems the right time to leave my favorite observation on frame material here:

More seriously, I have alloy, titanium and chromoly frames. All of them have their strong points. Some have weak points as well. Old school chromoly has rather a lot to recommend it. Especially when it comes to an ebike platform where the stresses are high and chromoly's strength and forgiving nature outweigh its... weight. That is incidentally a theme of the ebike that cyclists generally take a while to get beat into their heads: The whole weight weenie thing has to be cast aside in favor of durability. This is why a cheapo Shimano HG400 cassette - pinned together steel - was once the epitome of ebike clusters, until SRAM decided to make their own out of tool steel (and charge $350+ for it). Now in 2024 we have more choices. The Microshift Advent X costs about $40.

My favorite bikes are chromoly, my Trek 520 touring and my Jamis Exile mtb. I thoroughly looked at all 3 Surly bikes you listed. Only one would fit and I can’t really see spending that for a frame when I already have many that fit and perhaps 2 or 3 that might work.

First question is, would you rule out a good aluminum frame?

Hell no I wouldn't. That road bike I pictured earlier is a Vitus 979 'duraluminium' frame from 1983, if I recall correctly. That was the first bike I built frame-up (in 1983), which explains the triple front and the straight block (it worked but definitely a learning experience I need not repeat). My next-most-recent build was the bike featured in this series:

Private Site

Its a 2000 Intense Tracer frame I rescued cheap on Ebay, and it is alloy. And maybe the most fun bike I own. Rigid and light. With the rigidity offset by the full suspension (and thats a 1999 Marzocchi Bomber fork I also rescued for that build). And of course my Bullitts are alloy-framed. Those bikes use super-rigid alloy construction, but since the bike is 8 ft long, flex creeps in naturally and its deceptively comfortable for an alloy frame with no suspension.

With that said, chromoly options are the best candidates for an off the shelf conversion. Since you are already sold on chromoly I'll spare the peanut gallery waxed eloquence as to why. Keep loving it. And keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out . Alloy can work just fine if the planets align properly.

It seems that most of the ebikes, even high end, are made of aluminum. Granted, they are probably made of heavier tubing and more sturdily than non-electric bikes I would suppose. But I am a light rider.

Your body weight definitely offsets some of the factors that would lend one to favor alloy. Just remember the decision process is layered and your body weight is only one layer in the onion.

I have to say I'm not a fan of either of your two choices. I think they both are too old to make a safe ebike conversion. A lot of this has to do with the lack of disc brakes, but I am also looking at all of the parts on these bikes. I would say the Jamis is ideal IF it had disk brake mounts. But it doesn't. I would never build an ebike with any kind of caliper brake, even though I know some DIY'ers out there will say they have done it, and pooh-pooh the standard wisdom that any rim brake regardless of the flavor is not a long-term safe solution. Regardless of any good intentions to take it slow, the reality is an ebike is a faster animal with a fair bit of added weight to slow down safely and stop (and yes I know you are a very light rider). I've seen adjustable-angle stems like the Trek has give way under intense braking and as such I'll never trust them.

The Jamis is ideal in the sense it has a perfect down tube shape, and a real triangle with what seems to be plenty of room for a battery mount. Its also got frame bosses for a rack although the lower rear ones don't look particularly robust (I cracked my first steel ebike frame when a lower rack boss snapped that one time I overdid it and the frame was history with a fresh hole in the chainstay). I do love seeing a chain hanger on a frame again, though.

For both the Trek and the Jamis, I would out of the gate take it as a given the suspension fork will be retired in favor of a much better air fork. That 1999 Marzocchi I used on the red Intense was a miracle find in that it was 23 years old but appeared new... but even so it still needed all new seals. You can get a 'vintage' fork on ebay if you want to keep up appearances, or spend about $150-300 on an inexpensive or halfway decent air fork.

Also honestly for a modern ebike where you are going to be riding at speeds you otherwise never would be, with potholes rearing up at you a lot more quickly, I'd abandon any inclination to use ancient wheels, unless a pro has tuned them and signed off on their survivability (which will not help the poor pawls under the cassette body, or the cassette body itself). Otherwise... they won't survive. Simple as that. You'll start popping spokes too. Been there and done that, unfortunately. I know you don't want to go past 1.8-1.95 but at the least you should go a bit wider on rims to allow for a future BurroBabe who's gotten some e-experience under her belt and wants a ride less likely to rattle fillings and bash her lower back. At 62 my priorities in this regard are nothing like what they were when I was 22. Or even 52.

My other choice is a Jamis Exile mtb. It has a chromoly butted triangle frame. It's 13", has a Manitou Spyder fork which doesn't appear to have anything to attach a disc brake to. The rear stays have 2 drilled holes and another with a bolt in it on the inside of both sides. The front fork is about 16” axle to inside the top arch. Gears are 3 x 8, Shimano STX RC front crank and derailleur and the rear derailleur is just stamped “ integrated 8SK”. It also has stupid grip shifters which I cannot twist (My wrists are destroyed). I would need to change the flat bar to a riser with some ergonomic sweep as well.

Bikes like this from such a bygone era should be regarded as frame donors only. But in this case the frame is just a teeny bit too old given its lack of disk brake mounts. But its definitely a close fit. The drivetrain on this bike has no hope of working long term. You can see I think the same thing about the wheels (for 26" wheels my choice would be the indestructible SunRingle MTX39, or the AlexRims DM30, with the latter being a little narrower but only by a few mm).

It’s bottom bracket is 69mm wide, too narrow for the BBSHD according to Bafang’s website. I couldn’t find the other motor listed there. This bike has Sunrims CR18 and Parallax hubs. I’s lighter, without a rear carrier and with light street tires (also 26 x 1.95”) it weighs about 28.5#.

A 69mm bottom bracket is not at all a problem. The BBSHD comes in 3 widths: 68-72mm, 100mm and 120mm. The first size on that list would work just fine. Also the BBS02 is available in a 68-72mm width. 69mm is ideal.

I checked out the Microshift website to see the Advent X drivetrains. They don’t come in 8 speed but they do have other groupsets in 3 X 8 and 3 x 7. And I'm fine putting on a new group set that can handle the extra torque from a motor.

For a beginner build, you want the Advent X. Forget about the 3x systems. 8s and 7s systems are bottom of the barrel, qualitywise. It has been decades since anything was made that was 7s and not Walmart-level quality. You will be using a 1x as a mid drive will require a single front ring. Common wisdom is that a motor is so happy in a wider range of rpms that you need fewer gears. But for a cyclist, ideal cadence still rules and is unaffected by this, so unless you just want to throttle down the road you want 9, 10 or 11s. It so happens the Microshift Advent X is cheap, smooth, durable and effective. Here are two companion articles which go together on this subject. The first one gets into drivetrain options. Believe it or not 11s is ideal thanks in part to the 1x front limit, but 11s for a beginner is a lot tougher and much more expensive than doing 10s now that there is an inexpensive, quality matched drivetrain (derailleur, e-shifter, rear cluster and chain), just waiting to be installed with minimal investment. I put a wider (11-51T) 11s Sunrace CSMX8 cluster on my Big Fat Dummy last month and just the freaking cassette ran me $130. 9s is an option as well and 9s used to be the DIY builder's smart choice, but the Microshift 10s system is a jewel.

And yes in this first article I do mention 8s systems that are worth a damn... but its a very, very short list.

Private Site

Private Site

So M@, what do you think? Any of these bikes seem like they might work for conversion? And thanks in advance for any other advice or recommendations you can offer.

I would say no, but a frame like the Jamis with disk brake mounts would be ideal. Part of why I recommended picking something like a Surly Grappler was because the rest of the components on the bike were modern and safe. Plus the Grappler already used the Advent X drivetrain out of the gate. A bike like that would let you just pull the bottom braket off, plug in a motor, bolt on a battery and off you go. Otherwise you are going on a frame hunt and doing it the long way. Which can be a wonderfully rewarding project, but not sure you want to go there. My Intense Tracer, now renamed the Apostate, is loaded into my car tomorrow morning on its way to the Lower Sierras where it and I will spend the better part of a week poking around.

Incidentally, here is that bike, now-assembled, back when it had street tires on it. Schwalbe Pickups, which are hard, fast rollers.

Part of the reason I rechristened the bike 'Apostate' was its a dedicated mountain bike re-purposed for pavement. A Surly Grappler or a Marin Pine Mountain are good choices for a street ride when you consider the beefed up components are better suited to a life with electric assist.