It's the same system in the Electra bikes with integrated downtube battery. Also the same in the newer Domane+ AL.
2023 Trek Fx+ and Dual Sport+
- Thread starter Richard Stallard
- Start date
Ender
Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Minneapolis, MN
Resurrecting an old thread here (and thanks for the discussion, guys!)
I already have a heavy powerful ebike (with torque sensor,) but am looking for a lighter alternative more for fitness. I've test ridden the FX+ 2 twice now at different shops, and after the first time I was curious about that 1/2 rotation delay in motor assist and that's how I found this discussion. Other than that oddity, I really like this bike.
On my second ride, I tested more thoroughly, and really only noticed this 1/2 rotation delay from a stop. Maybe when you're moving you don't notice 1/2 a rotation or maybe it's just a thing when not moving? Anyway, I asked the bike shop guy about it, and he wasn't aware of it but suggested it might be something set on purpose by Trek to keep the motor assist from surprising new riders. Also suggested it might be something that could be tweaked with the app. (Not sure I believe him.)
Anyway, for me I'm still undecided. I think I need to test ride the Vado SL 4.0 again. It's so smooth! Just wish it had a bit more pep on the hills.
I already have a heavy powerful ebike (with torque sensor,) but am looking for a lighter alternative more for fitness. I've test ridden the FX+ 2 twice now at different shops, and after the first time I was curious about that 1/2 rotation delay in motor assist and that's how I found this discussion. Other than that oddity, I really like this bike.
On my second ride, I tested more thoroughly, and really only noticed this 1/2 rotation delay from a stop. Maybe when you're moving you don't notice 1/2 a rotation or maybe it's just a thing when not moving? Anyway, I asked the bike shop guy about it, and he wasn't aware of it but suggested it might be something set on purpose by Trek to keep the motor assist from surprising new riders. Also suggested it might be something that could be tweaked with the app. (Not sure I believe him.)
Anyway, for me I'm still undecided. I think I need to test ride the Vado SL 4.0 again. It's so smooth! Just wish it had a bit more pep on the hills.
Saratoga Dave
Well-Known Member
They’re just releasing the new 1.2 motor, you might want to hang out for a bit and see how that shakes out within the various SL models.
Ender
Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Minneapolis, MN
Thanks, yeah I saw that. Let's hope.
Richard Stallard
Active Member
- Region
- Australia
I have a Vado SL 4.0 and my wife has a Trek Fx+, which we purchased after giving up waiting for another Vado in Australia mid 2022. If it was up to me, I would have returned the Fx+ as the drive is nothing like the Vado, despite it having a torque sensor. The main problem is that the control provided by the torque sensor seems to be simply ON/OFF, rather than the smooth proportional motor control of the Vado. If you are providing some torque to the pedals, then you get full motor assist with the Fx+. My wife found this quite unnerving at first, especially when manoeuvring at low speed through obstacles or when crossing a busy road, as the motor assist was too strong. The problem was reduced to some extent by lowering the Level 1 assist to 5% which was done by the local Trek dealer (and now can be done through the Hyena Rider Assist app).
Despite this issue, my wife loves the bike because it is light enough that she can ride without motor assist most of the time, saving the motor for when it is really needed. I still love my Vado as I like a little bit of motor assist all the time. I have also reduced the Level 1 assist on the Vado, to about half the default, to make me work a bit more but the higher levels are there when needed.
Despite this issue, my wife loves the bike because it is light enough that she can ride without motor assist most of the time, saving the motor for when it is really needed. I still love my Vado as I like a little bit of motor assist all the time. I have also reduced the Level 1 assist on the Vado, to about half the default, to make me work a bit more but the higher levels are there when needed.
Ender
Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Minneapolis, MN
Ho Richard!
I really appreciate the perspective.
Of course, as I start looking at lightweight pedelic options in this $2000-$3500 price range, I keep finding more and more competitors! Everything from Orbea to Gazelle to Cannondale! Plus plenty of online only competitors even cheaper! Hard to know what to consider with some many options and few head to head comparisons.
Richard Stallard
Active Member
- Region
- Australia
Bear in mind a lot of cheaper e-bikes don't have a torque sensor, just a cadence sensor, so motor assist is applied whenever the pedals are turning. So, you can "cheat" and get motor assist just by turning the pedals over without applying any effort. Bikes like the Vado give very smooth motor assist because the torque sensor measures your effort and applies motor assist in proportion to your effort. That is why I was disappointed with the Fx+ as it should be capable of similar smoothness to the Vado but the firmware seems to be only interpreting the torque sensor output as either on or off. According to the Hyena web site, the torque sensor itself generates an analog signal proportional to torque, but the firmware doesn't make full use of the data available. I raised this issue with Trek customer service and they never responded.
rochrunner
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Rochester Hills MI
Before we took the plunge on e-bikes, my wife and I rented a pair from a Pedego store while vacationing in Tucson. That was my issue exactly, as I couldn't figure out when to expect a sudden non-proportional boost from the hub motor. The bikes also had throttles, which were kind of fun to use on the long bike path but made me feel like I was back on one of my motorcycles!
We eventually ended up with my wife on a Trek Verve+ (Bosch mid-motor) and myself on a Vado 4.0 (now a Vado SL 5.0) and we couldn't be happier with our choices.
Richard Stallard
Active Member
- Region
- Australia
We have a Verve+ as well, which my wife rode for a while before the Fx+. The Bosch motor is very smooth and quiet. I am actually riding the Verve now as my second e-bike, as the wider tires work well on gravel rail trails near Denmark - that is Denmark the small town on the south coast of Western Australia not Denmark the country in Europe. Even though the M frame on the verve is a bit small for me, I have fitted a dropper seat post which provides the correct seat height. One thing we discovered with the Verve is that the bottom bracket is higher than on most similar bikes which made it hard for me to reach the ground with the seat at the correct height, hence the dropper seat post. The dropper had 125 mm travel which was more than I needed, so I have just fitted a BMX-style 25.4 mm seat clamp on the moving portion of the dropper to reduce the travel to about half.
Hi every one,
As this was the only user review of the Fx+ I could find, it is only reasonable to put my experiences with the Fx+ here as well.
I saw the model at a fair here in Belgium, and admittedly fel for the looks. Did an indoor trial run and was fairly impressed, first as an option for my wife who is commuting about 15 k, so the limited range is no problem. As she has to put the bike into an underground garage at work, the relative low weight was a big pro. And in the end I decided to buy one as well.
We also both bought the range extender for longer trips.
I started of with an L size, but couldn't find a comfortable seating, so after a week changed it (no problem for Trek
) for an XL which is a lot better. It did surprise me however since I am 'only' 183 cm.
I did modify mine slightly, replaced the rear Altus by an new old stock Deore and the sprocket by an 11-30, this reach is more than enough even in Belgian hills.
The 0,5 second delay didn't bother me much at first, not having any prior experience with e-bikes, but I must admit it is slightly annoying now. Our riding experience is very positive, my wife did cycle to work occasionally but does now practically everyday, mainly on 2. (As most folks know, there's a 25k speed limit on EU versions of the Fx+)
I found you can also ride it very well, feels natural, without the motor assistance, but admittedly my reference being a 30 years old Giant trekking bike.
The negatives? Well the three steps assist is a bit short, 5 would have been perfect. The limited display doesn't bother me much, and we were aware of it before buying. Haven't tried the app yet. And as said, the 0.5 delay is not very subtle.
Both our chargers (we bought the bikes 1 month apart) are suffering from the no charging issue, which is documented in the internet. For the moment we're leaving the chargers connected to mains permanently, which seems to help.
Hope this 'review' will help others with their decision!
Cheers, Gerard
As this was the only user review of the Fx+ I could find, it is only reasonable to put my experiences with the Fx+ here as well.
I saw the model at a fair here in Belgium, and admittedly fel for the looks. Did an indoor trial run and was fairly impressed, first as an option for my wife who is commuting about 15 k, so the limited range is no problem. As she has to put the bike into an underground garage at work, the relative low weight was a big pro. And in the end I decided to buy one as well.
We also both bought the range extender for longer trips.
I started of with an L size, but couldn't find a comfortable seating, so after a week changed it (no problem for Trek
) for an XL which is a lot better. It did surprise me however since I am 'only' 183 cm.I did modify mine slightly, replaced the rear Altus by an new old stock Deore and the sprocket by an 11-30, this reach is more than enough even in Belgian hills.
The 0,5 second delay didn't bother me much at first, not having any prior experience with e-bikes, but I must admit it is slightly annoying now. Our riding experience is very positive, my wife did cycle to work occasionally but does now practically everyday, mainly on 2. (As most folks know, there's a 25k speed limit on EU versions of the Fx+)
I found you can also ride it very well, feels natural, without the motor assistance, but admittedly my reference being a 30 years old Giant trekking bike.
The negatives? Well the three steps assist is a bit short, 5 would have been perfect. The limited display doesn't bother me much, and we were aware of it before buying. Haven't tried the app yet. And as said, the 0.5 delay is not very subtle.
Both our chargers (we bought the bikes 1 month apart) are suffering from the no charging issue, which is documented in the internet. For the moment we're leaving the chargers connected to mains permanently, which seems to help.
Hope this 'review' will help others with their decision!
Cheers, Gerard
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
Thank you for an interesting write-up, Gerard! (I was slightly confused with your "k" but quickly guessed you meant "km")
Short addition to my experience; via the app I updated the firmware of the controller and the sensor (I think). The 0,5 sec/revolution before the motor kicks in is still there, but the proces is definitely less aggressive. Equally the ‘braking sensation’ when you stop pedaling is a lot less.
Last weekend did a 95 Km tour with the booster attached. About half of the route fairly strong headwind, about a quarter was hilly. When arriving home I had two green lines left on the display.
Cheers Gerard
Last weekend did a 95 Km tour with the booster attached. About half of the route fairly strong headwind, about a quarter was hilly. When arriving home I had two green lines left on the display.
Cheers Gerard
My wife and I test rode a new Dual Sport+ 2 and Vado SL today, and I was expecting the Trek to have a jerky, delayed kick start (like other rear hub bikes I have ridden), but honestly it was much smoother than I thought it would be. Frankly it felt lot like other torque sensed bikes I have ridden (they told me they had updated the firmware so maybe that helped some). Yes, the Vado was better and I think a much more sophisticated motor and system that felt like a really well designed, sporty citibike bike, but for our purposes the Trek was just a better fit. We do mostly rail trail, but also gravel, dirt and some light single track trails with elevation and sometimes with racks and panniers, and my wife likes an upright posture. I think I could get the Vado SL where I wanted it with 27.5 rims and new tires, a stem extension/riser handlebars, and some creative effort to install a good rear rack, but all in, the price difference would probably be $1000. The Trek out the door just fit our needs. Another recent update is that Trek app can be used to directly adjust motor settings of your bike. For $2400 seems like pretty decent deal.
I do have a couple of questions for Trek Dual Sport+owners:
- should I limit normal charging to something below 100%
- any suggestions on good (and cheap) front mud guards
- dealer told me that it will drain the external battery first before the internal battery. Can anybody confirm if this behavior is true?
- the external battery appears to just be a 7ah 36 volt battery - $500 seems pretty steep for that. Anybody ever try a 3rd party battery? not sure I want to play with it while under warranty though...
- any obvious opportunities for weight savings on this bike (cranks, derailleurs, fork...)
Richard, if you download the Hyena app it will tell you battery percentage and give you a much better idea of the remaining battery left.
The Trek is a good price but the only thing to check closely is when you say:
some light single track trails with elevation
The gearing on the Trek (If the spec is the same as on google) at 42 x 36 rear is pretty high for any off road or steep climbs. You'll also get a lot less grunt with the 40nm hub motor when climbing in low gears then with a similar mid drives. You can always swap out the front chain ring for a smaller one and possibly get a bigger cassette for the rear depending on specs of he derailleur. But the Shimano Altus level drive train isn't great - it's fine on the road but off road drive train components can take a battering. The next level up is Deore and that's a proper MTB developed derailleur and is very tough.
It's all going to depend on your use of the bike. And look, it's always a compromise between price and use. On road (unless very steep) and off road if not too rough and fairly flat you'll be ok. But the Vado SL although more expensive is one tough well specced bike and I live in a rural area and use mine (with wider tyres) off road a lot.
Jeremy McCreary
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Carlsbad, CA
Sorry to hear that your power delivery still has an all-or-nothing feel despite the claimed torque-sensing. Just chiming in to let you know that it doesn't have to be that way on a hub-drive, and my Surface 604 V Rook is a case in point. Very smooth, natural power delivery with no all-or-nothing feel.
Reports on this forum make it clear that some hub-drive torque-sensing schemes are more sophisticated than others. Mine uses an IDbike TMM4 torque sensor on the drive-side rear dropout — basically a strain gauge sensing chain tension, which is of course proportional to both crank torque and pedal force when the freewheel's engaged.
In any given PAS level, delivered mechanical motor power feels like it varies directly with pedal force. And the higher the PAS level, the more assist for a given pedal force. The motor power indicator on the display bears out these observations.
The TMM4 includes a magnetic cadence sensor watching the teeth on the cassette's nearest (smallest) cog and is marked specifically for an 11t nearest cog. What the controller does with the TMM4's cadence data is unclear. At minimum, the controller blocks power in the absence of forward cassette rotation — an important safety feature.
Some mid-drives have many more sensors and much more sophisticated power delivery schemes, to be sure. But this lowly hub-drive manages to provide a pretty satisfying natual feel without that extra data.
FWIW
Old thread, I know but I just got an FX+2 and wanted to mention to anyone thinking about getting one that it feels so light and the gearing is so good that on flat terrain I do 90-95% of my riding without any pedal assistance at all. The other 5-10% is mostly because PAS and passing other riders is often just so much fun. And I'm not a trained or hearty cyclist, I'm 75. My few negatives are that compared to my old bike which had fork and seat suspension, the ride can get pretty bumpy over potholes and road imperfections. As the review suggested I might some day drop in a suspension seat post. And if you get the stagger frame, it won't work with most bike trunk racks. That probably pertains to all stagger frames but this is my first and I found out the hard way.
The Hyena App does give the ability to tweak the assist in each riding mode
I bought the 2023 Dual Sport 2 +. Perfect for my commute to work - 10K's each way so easily within the power range of the battery.
I have had some real issues with charging though which saw me going back and forth into the store after buying it. And them trying to find the fault - they seem to have got it working but I still have issues with it charging - it just seems really sensitive to something - and when the charger does not work you have to leave it for a few hours and then try again. I have begun to plug it into the bike first and then power up the charger and that seems to be working, but if its charging I dont touch the controller at all even if the lights are on as that can sometimes stop the charging process !
Pro's
Really fast roller with lots of pressure in the tyres and genuinely not too bad to ride when the battery is flat - nowhere near as much drag as a mid drive
Reasonably well speced although I put new pedals on immediately and will probably change the seat to something less wide.
This thing is actually really light for an E bike ! I use my normal bike rack car carrier - dont need a specific E bike one
Cons
Bars could be wider and stem shorter but thats just my preference
A bit too upright for my liking but again thats just me.
Very odd battery charging - often just refuses to work - there are other people having the same issues if you google it.
Not easy to fit a set of mudguards too - I put on a pair of wide SKS Bluemels but it took me the whole day - back one is fine but front one only has one fixing and its in a weird spot on the fork - couldn't seem to track down anything that was made to fit this model - but I am in NZ so maybe easier elsewhere. But it seemed strange as a true commuter needs to have guards in winter.
Its not as powerfull as a mid drive motor - so dont expect to be flying up hills at the same speed as the big mid motors.
H
I have had some real issues with charging though which saw me going back and forth into the store after buying it. And them trying to find the fault - they seem to have got it working but I still have issues with it charging - it just seems really sensitive to something - and when the charger does not work you have to leave it for a few hours and then try again. I have begun to plug it into the bike first and then power up the charger and that seems to be working, but if its charging I dont touch the controller at all even if the lights are on as that can sometimes stop the charging process !
Pro's
Really fast roller with lots of pressure in the tyres and genuinely not too bad to ride when the battery is flat - nowhere near as much drag as a mid drive
Reasonably well speced although I put new pedals on immediately and will probably change the seat to something less wide.
This thing is actually really light for an E bike ! I use my normal bike rack car carrier - dont need a specific E bike one
Cons
Bars could be wider and stem shorter but thats just my preference
A bit too upright for my liking but again thats just me.
Very odd battery charging - often just refuses to work - there are other people having the same issues if you google it.
Not easy to fit a set of mudguards too - I put on a pair of wide SKS Bluemels but it took me the whole day - back one is fine but front one only has one fixing and its in a weird spot on the fork - couldn't seem to track down anything that was made to fit this model - but I am in NZ so maybe easier elsewhere. But it seemed strange as a true commuter needs to have guards in winter.
Its not as powerfull as a mid drive motor - so dont expect to be flying up hills at the same speed as the big mid motors.
H
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