2020 -Top 10 Ebikes With The Bafang G510 Ultra

[Ebiker33]

Eunorau is not Ultra. I asked them. It’s the BBSHD.
Best price on Ultra is BPMimports.com. But they don’t have a 21 amp battery — only 17. That’s why I’m going with Frey. HT 1000 is $1950 plus $550 shipping. $2,600 Ultra with 21 amps is the best deal I’ve found. Hardtail with 3” tires works fine for me.

I edited the number 10 stop to include this.

 

[ElevenAD]

Eunorau is not Ultra. I asked them. It’s the BBSHD.
Best price on Ultra is BPMimports.com. But they don’t have a 21 amp battery — only 17. That’s why I’m going with Frey. HT 1000 is $1950 plus $550 shipping. $2,600 Ultra with 21 amps is the best deal I’ve found. Hardtail with 3” tires works fine for me.

Still a killer deal even with shipping!

 

[TomD]

Here's another cool looking FS fat bike with the ultra motor.

i.am.carbon -

Beautiful, full carbon fiber frame with components of very high quality. The battery with samsung cells is of 14Ah at 672 watt hours (also 20Ah 960watt hours available) and is nicely integrated into the frame and easy to remove. The massive rims measure 26 “in size. The width is a full 4.8” of...

wafabike.com

I believe it's the same bike you can order direct from dengfu (based on their E06 frame):

E06

DENGFU E06 is a fat E-bike, used for snow/sand riding. Equipped with BAFANG M620 G510 1000W 48V motor and DENGFU Lithium-ion 48V 14Ah 672Wh battery. TORAY T700 carbon fiber frame, 120mm full suspension, internal cable routing, post mount disc brake. Normally we use EMS and DPD as our logistics...

www.dengfubike.com

 

[TForan]

nope I went from 500 watt mid drive to 350 and I am happy. I want to work a little bit on my bike. I can haul a lot of weight and myself up upto 14 degree grades. thats plenty for me. when I can go 22 on the streets thats great for me.

It's hard to judge how smooth a bike is unless you ride it. All this conjecture without experience is pretty worthless.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Ravi, I know this may not be the place for technical details but I think you would agree that your first statement needs more explanation ( you know how things go in conferences ).

There are much nuanced details for sure. The way Bosch sensor reads changes in the torque is different than Brose.
Here is a great technical write-up regarding the motor and sensor construction of Bosch.

Bosch Active Line 3

Here, I share technical solutions that arised during the development of my solar-bike.

www.avdweb.nl

Here is the circuit board for Bosch:

Here is the circuit board for Brose.

As you can see, the circuits boards are different for Bosch and Brose.
Very different sensors, circuitry even though both are similar spec E-bike motors.

The following a diagram for a torque sensor used in Bosch steering systems for cars. I think they use a different system for E-bikes but what I was trying to convey is that, not every sensor is made equal.

Torque sensor for electric power steering system

The torque sensor in the electric power steering system measures the torque the driver applies to the steering wheel.

www.bosch-mobility-solutions.com

 

[TomD]

I didn't realize Brose used nylon gears. I just figured it was the belt drive making them so quiet.

 

[Johnny]

There are much nuanced details for sure. The way Bosch sensor reads changes in the torque is different than Brose.
Here is a great technical write-up regarding the motor and sensor construction of Bosch.

Bosch Active Line 3

Here, I share technical solutions that arised during the development of my solar-bike.

www.avdweb.nl

Here is the circuit board for Bosch:

View attachment 44411

Here is the circuit board for Brose.

View attachment 44410

As you can see, the circuits boards are different for Bosch and Brose.
Very different sensors, circuitry even though both are similar spec E-bike motors.

The following a diagram for a torque sensor used in Bosch steering systems for cars. I think they use a different system for E-bikes but what I was trying to convey is that, not every sensor is made equal.

Torque sensor for electric power steering system

The torque sensor in the electric power steering system measures the torque the driver applies to the steering wheel.

www.bosch-mobility-solutions.com

View attachment 44409

Thanks Ravi, that write up seems like a good read.

 

[webcurl]

The TQ motor shown above is currently available on some M1 bikes, such as the Spitzing. Haibike is also going to be using the motor in some of its 2020 models, but I don't think any of those are out yet.

Haibike Flyon's were supposed to be out mid last year but don't know what happened.

 

[Deafcat]

I didn't realize Brose used nylon gears. I just figured it was the belt drive making them so quiet.

Don't be so quick to assume nylon... That's definitely space plastic in there (engineered plastics including the ring gear, probably composite and solid lubricant reinforced). Quiet and very long life, but intended for power levels below a bafang ultra for sure.

 

[TomD]

Luna Apollo is back in stock with "NEW 2020 Components" and price reduced to $4900.

Luna Cycle Apollo

Distributors and builders of life changing electric bikes.

lunacycle.com

 

[smorgasbord]

Yeah, I notice that they've replaced the Shimano brakes with SRAM Guide, which are 4 piston and have good reviews.

I also noticed that they've replaced the Wren fork with a Rockshox Debonair Yari 160mm; that in itself is a big cost savings, but I don't know the quality/performance differences between them.

The worst thing I can see so far is that they've replaced the SRAM GX derailleur with the lower cost SX version.

EDIT: As a result, they're using the SRAM SX 11-50 Cassette, whereas the previous Apollo had the GX 10-50 cassette. Even worse, the new model (just recently sold out) won't even shift into the smallest cog!

 

[Ebiker33]

The new QuitKat Jeep version will have this motor too, same one that was in the super bowl commercial, I wonder if Bill Murray got to keep it as payment to be in the commercial.

JEEP Ebike

 

[Asher]

Regarding motor efficiency - is the Bafang Ultra - or other high powered motors, less efficient at lower power than lower power motors? When you're just cruising around town at the same speed across both high and low power motors, is there much difference in wh per km used, assuming constant pedal power input? (Aside from the extra weight of the bigger motors)

 

[eBikeaholic]

Regarding motor efficiency - is the Bafang Ultra - or other high powered motors, less efficient at lower power than lower power motors? When you're just cruising around town at the same speed across both high and low power motors, is there much difference in wh per km used, assuming constant pedal power input? (Aside from the extra weight of the bigger motors)

Good question, I'm trying to figure that out too.

By the math, no it should be just as efficient. Theoretically an electric motor in a lab running continuously at 250w should burn 250w per hour. That same motor running at 1500w will burn 1500w in an hour. That's 6x more energy used in the same amount of time. If used to transport an EV, will the latter arrive in 6x less time? How do we define optimal efficiency in real life transportation? Just like all things eBike, it depends on a bunch of factors.

At 1500w the vehicle will arrive significantly faster, require significantly less pedal effort and allow for the possibility of a heavier payload. Electricity is cheap here in TX (thanks to all the wind farms) so that would be my idea of transportation efficiency. Others might place higher value on weight, cost, range etc. It's hard to generalize an ideal balance for all these things since every rider has different needs.

I'm currently range testing a DIY rigid commuter eBike prototype with 24" x 1.75 tires @ 65 psi. Here are my notes so far:

Ultra G510 (stock controller 30A) @ 52v Luna Wolfpack | 12Ah 30Q (624Wh) = 1560w peak

• designed mostly for testing speed, not range (a larger Ah pack would better handle the high voltage sag)
• weighs 65 lbs and has a high gain single speed setup - 58T / 17T (6.1 gain ratio)
  • this gearing allows it to quickly reach bursts of 40 mph (64 kph) and maintain the flow of traffic when needed on local roads
  • also strains the motor & battery

Low power range test @ 250w | 23.17 miles (37.3 km)

• consumed 27 Wh per mile (624Wh / 23mi = 27). This is 7 Wh/mi less efficient than the 20 Wh/mi rule of thumb.
• most likely due to higher voltage and high single speed gearing because the bike reached higher speeds (28mph) than the rule of thumb top speeds (20mph).
• empirically, it also required significantly less pedal effort and was more fun than an underwhelming 36v system.
• casually reached the first 10 miles in about 60 minutes.

Full power stress test @ 1560w | 10.06 miles (16.2 km)

• consumed 62 Wh per mile (624Wh / 10mi = 62)... this figure is slightly skewed because the pack still had available charge, but the LVC was triggered by high voltage sag - needs further testing.
• anyway let's roll with it - 62Wh/mi is 56% less energy efficient than the same bike running 250w, but reached 10 miles in 25 minutes and required no pedal effort. Max speed 40.7 mph (65 kph).
• 35 minutes faster, which makes it 58% more efficient time wise (than the 250w test). Does this comparison make any sense?

Note - these two test were done on a different course under different weather conditions. I still need to do more testing and plan to include another test using 750w with bursts of max power as more of an actual usage commuter scenario. Also, the difference in cost per mile is $0.005. ($0.008 - $0.003, assuming $0.12/kWh), but you would also need to factor in how the higher power option would require a larger (or additional) battery pack to match the range of the low power use.

 

[Asher]

>How do we define optimal efficiency in real life transportation?

I asked because most of the time, I wouldn't want to go faster than I did with a lower powered ebike, in my case ~250-300 watts with a Juiced CCS going ~22-24 mph. And I got 9 wh/mi. My concern is whether the Bafang Ultra, at the same speeds, uses more wh/mi, given same speed and pedaling input. Going faster often makes little difference to overall trip times but uses a lot more energy (->less battery lifespan) and makes crashes a lot dicier. Going >25 mph roughly really isn't about efficiency, but can be helpful when contending with car traffic.

The main advantage of the Ultra for the way I'd ride is accelerating past cars from a stop, and maintaining speed with hills/headwind.

 

[eBikeaholic]

>How do we define optimal efficiency in real life transportation?

I asked because most of the time, I wouldn't want to go faster than I did with a lower powered ebike, in my case ~250-300 watts with a Juiced CCS going ~22-24 mph. And I got 9 wh/mi. My concern is whether the Bafang Ultra, at the same speeds, uses more wh/mi, given same speed and pedaling input. Going faster often makes little difference to overall trip times but uses a lot more energy (->less battery lifespan) and makes crashes a lot dicier. Going >25 mph roughly really isn't about efficiency, but can be helpful when contending with car traffic.

The main advantage of the Ultra for the way I'd ride is accelerating past cars from a stop, and maintaining speed with hills/headwind.

I see. Hopefully bench-marking the 250w rule of thumb against the 250w range test above gives a rough idea on that question.

Given the same voltage, gearing and pedal effort on a similar bike at the same speed the Ultra should be just as efficient Wh/mi as any other mid drive. I'd bet the differences would be minimal and hard to quantify. The Ultra only weighs 3 lbs more than the BBSHD and 6 lbs more than a 500w hub motor. Maybe it could even be more efficient since it shouldn't have to run as hot as a smaller motor might? ...but then we'd have to get into the motor build details and comparisons - can't help ya there.

For comparison purposes, what is your most used gear ratio for 250w (22-24mph) and roughly what is your pedal effort level? Is yours the 48v or 52v? max amps? ...hopefully some Ultra riders with a similar gearing to the Juiced CCS can chime in on that. You'd be comparing a mid drive to a geared rear hub motor and open up a whole new can of worms though.

As for acceleration from a stop to pass cars, I posted a speed test to YouTube a few months ago that might give some insight:

• Full PAS @ 1560w: 0 - 40 mph, 15 seconds | 1/4 mile, 27 seconds
  • full sprint with 60T / 17T and had a slight -1% grade dip in the middle

If your goal is to not exceed 24 mph I suppose you could limit the top speed in the display or programming settings and still get the higher power acceleration when needed? It's hard to see the display in the video but it looks like it reached 20 mph in about 5 seconds. You could run a similar test on the CCS and compare if there's a useful difference? Again I would imagine voltage, gearing and leg strength would be the major players here, not the few extra lbs of motor weight. As for maintaining speed in headwinds / aerodynamics that should depend more on your bike geometry right? Also, the Ultra eats hills for breakfast

 

[Asher]

Ah thanks for the info! I no longer have my Juiced, I sold it because I moved cities and it wasn't as useful, but I may be in the market for an ebike again for various reasons... I think I'd usually use the 2nd or 3rd highest gear on my Juiced, 7th or 8th. 48V. Yeah your ultra equipped bike seemed to accelerate a lot faster!

With the Juiced, even with my faster reflexes (than drivers) and gunning it, the acceleration wasn't that impressive vs cars, though perhaps not too surprising when modern cars are vastly overpowered for toodling around cities. Would be fun/useful to go above 24 mph at times, but would just keep most of my riding to that speed, with say ~250w assist (the lowest level on my former Juiced).

The Rize looks like a good value except it doesn't have 52v.

 

[Dave Sloan]

Ah thanks for the info! I no longer have my Juiced, I sold it because I moved cities and it wasn't as useful, but I may be in the market for an ebike again for various reasons... I think I'd usually use the 2nd or 3rd highest gear on my Juiced, 7th or 8th. 48V. Yeah your ultra equipped bike seemed to accelerate a lot faster!

With the Juiced, even with my faster reflexes (than drivers) and gunning it, the acceleration wasn't that impressive vs cars, though perhaps not too surprising when modern cars are vastly overpowered for toodling around cities. Would be fun/useful to go above 24 mph at times, but would just keep most of my riding to that speed, with say ~250w assist (the lowest level on my former Juiced).

The Rize looks like a good value except it doesn't have 52v.

The Frey bikes are all 48V with either 14, 17.5 or 21 amps. Maybe they have another option for customization but I don’t know. What would be the advantage of going to 52V over 48V?

 

[Asher]

The Frey bikes are all 48V with either 14, 17.5 or 21 amps. Maybe they have another option for customization but I don’t know. What would be the advantage of going to 52V over 48V?

Voltage goes down as the battery discharges, and the power to the motor along with it. Think of an electric toothbrush that gets weaker as the battery gets closer to empty. Juiced et Al have made 52V a selling point. And higher voltage means you don't have to charge the battery as much to get the same voltage, so less wear on the battery.

Makers haven't gone past 52V much due to costlier regulations on high voltage devices that kicks in above 52V nominal.

 

[Dave Sloan]

Voltage goes down as the battery discharges, and the power to the motor along with it. Think of an electric toothbrush that gets weaker as the battery gets closer to empty. Juiced et Al have made 52V a selling point. And higher voltage means you don't have to charge the battery as much to get the same voltage, so less wear on the battery.

Makers haven't gone past 52V much due to costlier regulations on high voltage devices that kicks in above 52V nominal.

Thanks for the info. So how should I understand a 48V, 21a battery compared to a 52V battery with lower amps if both are about 1,000 w/h? Also, generally how low does the battery have to get before voltage/power to the motor start to drop? With my current Bosch setup I don’t notice any drop in power when the battery gets low.