2020 -Top 10 Ebikes With The Bafang G510 Ultra

Ravi Kempaiah said:
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If Bafang can use more refined torque sensor, this motor will crush the competition. The sensor is a bit raw compared to Brose or Yamaha but several times more powerful for sure.
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Is it the sensor being not sensitive enough or programming ?
 
Johnny said:
Is it the sensor being not sensitive enough or programming ?
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Numerous companies have said programming is the issue, some are using Eggrider with various levels of fails and successes.
I would rather the vendor that sells the bike, master the programming for what performs best for "their" bike.
So for example let's look at the Watt Wagon verses Rize, top end verses bottom end, and Gates belt drive system with Rohloff hub.
I would think tweaking should be used to get it the best for their perspective systems. I really believe that would be next level for this motor, but BAFANG needs to train and supply data to people who are building these bikes.
Slapping it on from the factory with the generic setting doesn't seem to be working.
Again Exess out of Germany seems to have taken it into their on hands and totally solved this, by completely removing the controller and installing a new one that properly utilizes the full potential of the motor.
 
Johnny said:
Is it the sensor being not sensitive enough or programming ?
Click to expand...

You can only program certain parameters but Bafang doesn't have the best torque sensors.
If you try a Brose or Yamaha bike, you will quickly realize how smooth they are in terms of power application.
Those sensors are locked by patents and it costs several hundred thousands of $$ to purchase licensing fee at high volume. So, companies like Bafang try to use some other sensors that are not locked by patents.
Bosch has locked all its patents to prevent anyone from using it and the same goes for Yamaha or Brose.

Controller dictates the power application and it can be smoothed out to certain extent but it mainly follows the signals passed down by the torque sensor. If the torque sensors signals "hey, the rider is pedaling hard, send more electrons", then the controller obliges. Phase runner may operate more smoothly compared to a square wave controller but it can't over ride the torque sensor. Hence, even if you use a phase runner on a cadence sensing machine, the ride will still be choppy.
 
tomdav said:
There's a thread over on ES regarding the Exess branded controller. Sounds like it's not made by Exess but rather a German company called Innotrace GmbH:

endless-sphere.com

Bafang ultra max 2.2kw EXCESS controller

EXCESS controller Anyone have more news of this controller, looks nice to have a integrated controller to upgrade to.
endless-sphere.com endless-sphere.com
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Yeah I was reading that thread, interesting stuff, thanks for putting in the link. Leave it to the Germans to improve on a Chinese product, BAFANG needs to buy one of these test it and reverse engineer it, maybe they already have, and that will be a new model. The tour going through the factory had an R&D section that was off limits this time, last time it wasn't, which tells me they are working on stuff they don't want getting out...yet.
 
Ravi Kempaiah said:
You can only program certain parameters but Bafang doesn't have the best torque sensors.
If you try a Brose or Yamaha bike, you will quickly realize how smooth they are in terms of power application.
Those sensors are locked by patents and it costs several hundred thousands of $$ to purchase licensing fee at high volume. So, companies like Bafang try to use some other sensors that are not locked by patents.
Bosch has locked all its patents to prevent anyone from using it and the same goes for Yamaha or Brose.

Controller dictates the power application and it can be smoothed out to certain extent but it mainly follows the signals passed down by the torque sensor. If the torque sensors signals "hey, the rider is pedaling hard, send more electrons", then the controller obliges. Phase runner may operate more smoothly compared to a square wave controller but it can't over ride the torque sensor. Hence, even if you use a phase runner on a cadence sensing machine, the ride will still be choppy.
Click to expand...

How do you think the TQ motor would perform on the Watt Wagon Commuter Pro, the tires are smaller so maybe you could get away with less torque than the cross tour?
 
I honestly don't think Bafang cares about getting it right. From what I've read they are more interested selling product than supporting it and leaves it to dealers to figure it out.
 
tomdav said:
I honestly don't think Bafang cares about getting it right. From what I've read they are more interested selling product than supporting it and leaves it to dealers to figure it out.
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yep the solution is to just up the power. don't worry about how smooth it is or how much extra juice it uses. the only bikes I can compare are my eg that has a 500 watt dapu mid drive and my Bosch with a 350 watt. man the battery usually between the two of them is like night and day. the smoothness too.
 
The TQ motor shown above is currently available on some M1 bikes, such as the Spitzing. Haibike is also going to be using the motor in some of its 2020 models, but I don't think any of those are out yet.
 
Ravi Kempaiah said:
You can only program certain parameters but Bafang doesn't have the best torque sensors.
If you try a Brose or Yamaha bike, you will quickly realize how smooth they are in terms of power application.
Those sensors are locked by patents and it costs several hundred thousands of $$ to purchase licensing fee at high volume. So, companies like Bafang try to use some other sensors that are not locked by patents.
Bosch has locked all its patents to prevent anyone from using it and the same goes for Yamaha or Brose.

Controller dictates the power application and it can be smoothed out to certain extent but it mainly follows the signals passed down by the torque sensor. If the torque sensors signals "hey, the rider is pedaling hard, send more electrons", then the controller obliges. Phase runner may operate more smoothly compared to a square wave controller but it can't over ride the torque sensor. Hence, even if you use a phase runner on a cadence sensing machine, the ride will still be choppy.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the explanation.
I already have an idea on how control circuitry work in general but I don't know about the the availability and pricing of torque sensors.

To be more precise, is the sensor's resolution too low, are its measurements too noisy or is the range of measurements too limited? I agree that accuracy will impact the cost significantly however I doubt that the sensors we have in our bikes are very expensive.
 
It makes sense that with powerful motors that drivetrains wear out faster and chains are breaking. I'd love to see a component manufacturer recognize that ebikes don't need as many gears and the fewer gears and wider chains are more suitable. I'm told in the old days of 5 speed freewheels that they could go a really long time before they wore out.

If we went to say 5 or 6 speed cassettes with the same spacing we have for today's cassettes and just made the chains and cogs wider that would make drivetrains last longer and also probably reduce instances of chains breaking.
 
ElevenAD said:
With Frey I would only consider buying during US group buy time periods,then shipping is $300, there is a group buy happening now I believe.
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I reached out to Frey to ask if the group buy was still happening. They replied that it had ended but said they might be able to pad my order if I wanted another bike shipped to the same address. I got the impression they would be going out of their way to accommodate.
 
My 2017 Biktrix Ultra is as smooth and quiet as I would ever want. Every time I ride a Bosch or Brose, I'm always trying to find the next level of power and it's not there. No Euro spec motors for me.
 
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Ebiker33 said:
There is a reason some of the top bikes are using this motor, pure power 160 NM equal 118 foot lbs. of torque, the Bosch is a very good motor but at only 75nm of torque that is only 55 foot pounds of torque, and really it's designed for the European market not the North American market. If you want to climb grade with weight you are going to be limited at some point. The bikes that are changing to the Gates Drive system have done so because aggressive riders that push this motor to it's limits are busting chains like crazy, one customer busting 5 within a year. Basically if the motor is tuned to 1600 watts plus, your chains life will be greatly reduced, if you are pushing it. The bikes that are using chains seem to be using KMC Ebike specific ones. As well Bafang knows this motor is good but it needs further software tuning, I was just watching a video from their factory, where they specifically had riders going out testing different software configurations to improve that aspect.

The list is by price highest to lowest, it's up to each person to discover what the best value is for them, links provided.

#1 Watt Wagon-Cross Tour $7299.00
Of note Titanium frame fully loaded and always improving, fat tire style, they also make a commuter but I wanted to pick just one from each brand.
Watt Wagon Cross Tour

#2 EXCESS From Germany $6965.00
Of note they are a one model only type company, carbon fiber frame with the upgraded G510 Excess controller which I included in the price, that controller is suppose to really improve the tuning.
EXCESS

#3 LUNA Cycle-Apollo $5550.00
Of note Carbon fiber frame with probably the very best battery of all these Ebikes 52V 21Amp/hrs with upgraded cells, batteries is their specialty, so this should be of no surprise, also they have also tuned their G510 to higher specifications.
LUNA Apollo

#4 FLX - Blade 2 $5269.00
Of note 2020 model has changed the frame and drive train, looks very good, I took the fully loaded price, as that is what I would buy.
FLX BLADE 2

#5 Biktrix Juggernaut Ultra 1000 $4229.00
Of note I put the upgrades in, they have had more time with this motor as they were one of the first to get it to market, getting more economical now for price under $5K
BIKTRIX Juggernaut Ultra

#6 FREY- EX PRO $4010.00
Of note this bike has duel 48 volt 14 amp/hr batteries one inside the tube and one outside, the ultimate long distance runner.
FREY EX PRO

#7 M2S Bikes All Terrain Ultra FS - $3499.00
The only reason it beat out the one below is because it has 29 reviews average 5/5 stars which I felt was worth capturing the 7th spot.
MS2 ULTRA FS

#8 Volton- A-Trail EMTB -$3499.00
Used the upgraded motor package to get to this.
VOLTON A TRAIL EMTB

#9 Rize - RX - $2799.00
Just changed from Sparks and re-branded to Rize, a very thrifty price for what you actually get.
Rize RX

#10 EUNORAU 48V1000W FAT-HD All Terrain - $2999.00 less $500 coupon code instant rebate $2499.00
This is the most economical of the bunch, they are also throwing in an extra 48 21Ah battery with free shipping.
EUNORAU

I know there are more out there, but I think this is a good list with high to low prices.
Edited in a #10 as per the post below, top 10 sounds better anyways.
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Eunorau is not Ultra. I asked them. It’s the BBSHD.
Best price on Ultra is BPMimports.com. But they don’t have a 21 amp battery — only 17. That’s why I’m going with Frey. HT 1000 is $1950 plus $550 shipping. $2,600 Ultra with 21 amps is the best deal I’ve found. Hardtail with 3” tires works fine for me.
 
Johnny said:
To be more precise, is the sensor's resolution too low, are its measurements too noisy or is the range of measurements too limited? I agree that accuracy will impact the cost significantly however I doubt that the sensors we have in our bikes are very expensive.
Click to expand...

It is not about the resolution, but how the sensor works.
Brose has tons of expertise making car steering power systems and their bikes are really smooth.
It is my understanding that other companies can't source the exact same sensor circuit board without paying hefty licensing fee.
It is like this... even though AMD, Nvidia and Intel all make graphics card, some perform better than others. That is their company's USP.
 
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fooferdoggie said:
yep the solution is to just up the power. don't worry about how smooth it is or how much extra juice it uses. the only bikes I can compare are my eg that has a 500 watt dapu mid drive and my Bosch with a 350 watt. man the battery usually between the two of them is like night and day. the smoothness too.
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Have you ridden an Ultra powered bike ?
 
TForan said:
Have you ridden an Ultra powered bike ?
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nope I went from 500 watt mid drive to 350 and I am happy. I want to work a little bit on my bike. I can haul a lot of weight and myself up upto 14 degree grades. thats plenty for me. when I can go 22 on the streets thats great for me.
 
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