Possible to convert an Enviolo to a Rohloff?

[sammcneill]

Hey brains trust.

I’ve an SC2 high speed with Enviolo -
Many threads here around how it’s under geared for high speed and cadence too high to maintain 40kph or above.

Got me thinking - would it be possible to replace Enviolo with standard Rohloff hub and manual shifter ?

I’m not talking about going E14 that has hooks into the Bosch system I believe.

I’m thinking more rip out the Enviolo and substitute in a Rohloff and a manual shifter and keep the Bosch system running as it is …

Thoughts?

Sam

 

[Brendon@OEB]

The biggest hangup will be getting the appropriate dropouts from R&M as I believe they're different. The Rohloff uses a 5mm skewer to attach to the dropouts and the Enviolo is a bolt on hub which I think needs different bits bolted to the frame, if memory serves.

Mechanically speaking it'll all work fine as they're both a closed loop cable system, I bet you could even reuse the same cable housing to save that step too.

So you're experiencing not enough of a gear up top? Maybe a better option is to install a smaller cog out back on the hub? Do you find yourself using the entire gear ratio on the Enviolo? If so that's worth considering as you'll lose some gearing from a climbing perspective.

 

[sammcneill]

The biggest hangup will be getting the appropriate dropouts from R&M as I believe they're different. The Rohloff uses a 5mm skewer to attach to the dropouts and the Enviolo is a bolt on hub which I think needs different bits bolted to the frame, if memory serves.

Mechanically speaking it'll all work fine as they're both a closed loop cable system, I bet you could even reuse the same cable housing to save that step too.

So you're experiencing not enough of a gear up top? Maybe a better option is to install a smaller cog out back on the hub? Do you find yourself using the entire gear ratio on the Enviolo? If so that's worth considering as you'll lose some gearing from a climbing perspective.

Thanks @Brendon@OEB - I've explored a smaller hub at back and I believe there's only a 1 tooth smaller option so unlikely to gain me a lot of benefit in the scheme of things.

And yes, definitely it's undergeared for high speed in my mind - just not enough resistance to hit and maintain 40km/hr or more.

What annoys me, quite frankly, is seeing people on much cheaper eBikes wtih a traditional derailluer gearing system comfortably maintaining 40km/hr as they whizz past

 

[Brendon@OEB]

Thanks @Brendon@OEB - I've explored a smaller hub at back and I believe there's only a 1 tooth smaller option so unlikely to gain me a lot of benefit in the scheme of things.

And yes, definitely it's undergeared for high speed in my mind - just not enough resistance to hit and maintain 40km/hr or more.

What annoys me, quite frankly, is seeing people on much cheaper eBikes wtih a traditional derailluer gearing system comfortably maintaining 40km/hr as they whizz past

I just looked at the Nevo's we've got on the floor, one Rohloff and one Enviolo, seems like the dropouts for the IGH bikes are the same, it's the Touring models that have a different dropout for the derailleur hanger. That's eyeballing things though, I'd prefer to get confirmation from R&M before saying for certain that the Rohloff would drop in.

Personally I haven't had any issues getting an Enviolo up to 45kph on some of the R&M test bikes we've had in the past, cadence is 85-95 or so.

Traditional chain/derailleur works great but also keep in mind you've got a relatively "service free" bike by comparison with the belt drive and IGH!

 

[sammcneill]

Personally I haven't had any issues getting an Enviolo up to 45kph on some of the R&M test bikes we've had in the past, cadence is 85-95 or so.

I'll move my cadence sensor off my gravelbike and onto my SC2 and give it a test to see what my cadence is required to exceed 40kph

 

[sammcneill]

ok so a short ride today with cadence sensor on - basically needing cadence of around 110rpm to hit over 40km on the Bosch headunit (Garmin usually 1-3kph slower)

Couple of screenshots:

Unsustainable in my mind - I'm not a featherweight by any means, but whilst weight will make some difference, ultimately, there is not enough high gears to be hitting 40kph at a sustainable rpm, let alone 45kph.

I'll do a similar test on my gravel bike (Rohloff + Gates Belt drive too) and see what my cadence is to get to that speed).

Cheers
Sam

 

[Brendon@OEB]

ok so a short ride today with cadence sensor on - basically needing cadence of around 110rpm to hit over 40km on the Bosch headunit (Garmin usually 1-3kph slower)

Couple of screenshots:

View attachment 165803

View attachment 165804

Unsustainable in my mind - I'm not a featherweight by any means, but whilst weight will make some difference, ultimately, there is not enough high gears to be hitting 40kph at a sustainable rpm, let alone 45kph.

I'll do a similar test on my gravel bike (Rohloff + Gates Belt drive too) and see what my cadence is to get to that speed).

Cheers
Sam

What display do you have? The Bosch system has a cadence data field as well as rider wattage out put. What tire pressure are you at? Are you in turbo for the assist?

Also, this is a HS bike, yes?

 

[sammcneill]

What display do you have? The Bosch system has a cadence data field as well as rider wattage out put. What tire pressure are you at? Are you in turbo for the assist?

Also, this is a HS bike, yes?

I’ve got the Intuvia so no cadence / power outputs I’m afraid.
Yes was in Turbo mode for max assist to get top speed for this test.
Yes HS - the motor never cuts out of boosting, it’s just I run out of gears/resistance on Enviolo.
Tire pressure - would have to check but run quite firm.

 

[TrevorB]

If you do switch to Rohloff probably cheaper to build or buy new wheel. This allows you to sell enviolo as complete wheel or to fit to bike if you sell it.

 

[Brendon@OEB]

I’ve got the Intuvia so no cadence / power outputs I’m afraid.
Yes was in Turbo mode for max assist to get top speed for this test.
Yes HS - the motor never cuts out of boosting, it’s just I run out of gears/resistance on Enviolo.
Tire pressure - would have to check but run quite firm.

Ah bummer on the display, makes sense to use the Garmin!

What drive unit do you have and/or what year is the bike?

 

[sammcneill]

Performance Speed Line Gen 4
I bought it in 2020

 

[sammcneill]

So I went and test drove a Specialized Vado SL (you'd be happy @Stefan Mikes !!) - it doesn't have the full boost but assist drops out at 45kph - I was able to go on a couple of side roads for a short test ride, and got it over 40kph - lower boost = significantly more effort so heart rate spiked a bit, but certainly was not going to run out of gears. Cadence was perfect. This was with a standard SRAM drive train.

This was NZD$4,500 on sale - definitely lacked a lot of the bells and whistles that R&M have, but did show the point that cheaper eBikes can deliver on the higher speeds. I see there is an Enviolo/Gates drivetrain option on the Vado, but the guy at the store said it was 'order only' - in two years he worked there, he'd never seen one on the floor. he did say a colleague had one and she could get up very fast on it....

Will test my Rohloff/Gates gravel bike for cadence this weekend.

 

[sammcneill]

OK and now here is the test on my Gravelbike with a Rohloff and Gates belt drive with GravelKings SK Plus 700x35 - not super fast tyres and quite wide, so takes a bit of effort to get up to 40kph+ (quite windy today too):

So hit 42kph with 96rpm cadence - MUCH more acceptable.

So shows that the Rohloff would be a better fit for lowering the cadence.

Hmmmmm

 

[peterh_nz]

So shows that the Rohloff would be a better fit for lowering the cadence.

I forget the history of your top speed/cadence dilemma. If you've got leeway in 1st gear, have you considered a slightly larger "chain" ring?

Was your motor upgraded to 85Nm?

Nice day in paradise! The completion of the Rapanui shared path is a wonderful asset.

Cheers

 

[sammcneill]

I forget the history of your top speed/cadence dilemma. If you've got leeway in 1st gear, have you considered a slightly larger "chain" ring?

Nice day in paradise! The completion of the Rapanui shared path is a wonderful asset.

Cheers

Sadly no - only a couple of mm clearance already with the 55mm chain ring and the frame:

Is the Rapanui finished at long last? Might ride it tonight - off to the Free Speech Union meeting featuring Lord Sumption from UK now …. (On my R&M of course!)

 

[Stefan Mikes]

So I went and test drove a Specialized Vado SL (you'd be happy @Stefan Mikes !!)

Glad to hear it, Sam!

This was NZD$4,500 on sale - definitely lacked a lot of the bells and whistles that R&M have

On purpose. Now, take your R&M e-bike with one hand and lift it at least at the shoulder level Every bell and each whistle add to the e-bike weight.

I see there is an Enviolo/Gates drivetrain option on the Vado, but the guy at the store said it was 'order only' - in two years he worked there, he'd never seen one on the floor. he did say a colleague had one and she could get up very fast on it....

On the heavy Vado yes but not on a Vado SL The SL means "superlightweight" Ironically, Como SL with an IGH is the heaviest of the SL e-bikes (almost as heavy as the full power chain Como), just think why it is so

 

[Jay Kay]

Glad to hear it, Sam!


On purpose. Now, take your R&M e-bike with one hand and lift it at least at the shoulder level Every bell and each whistle add to the e-bike weight.

View attachment 165905


On the heavy Vado yes but not on a Vado SL The SL means "superlightweight" Ironically, Como SL with an IGH is the heaviest of the SL e-bikes (almost as heavy as the full power chain Como), just think why it is so

Looking sharp @Stefan Mikes - I prefer to ride my heavy ATV

 

[sammcneill]

LOL - so I rode my Dad's new HS Rohloff Multicharger last night - amazing bike, just a dream to get to 40kph+ with the additional resistance/gearing of the Rohloff compared to my Enviolo.

Now that my 2020 SC 2 is out of warranty I've asked the LBS whether they think it woudl be possible to add a Rohloff to the bike to replace the Enviolo.... let's see what they reckon.

the Rohloff is NZD$2K+ I'd think so not a cheap upgrade after 15000km....

 

[sammcneill]

Wow -LBS replied within 11mins of sending the email - geez, didn't expect that (but super service as usual)

Hi Sam
Yes, we can do it. We've done one for another R&M customer and he did go all in with the eshift which required some software updates from R&M. It was about $4k in the end though as he needed everything coming from a chain and cassette setup. It would be somewhat cheaper if you did go with manual shifting and we could reuse your belt and cogs. The frame is compatible with Rohloff, we might not even need different dropouts? We have a couple of other customers who have manual shift Rohloff on their Bosch ebikes and it seems to go well.

Happy to look into this deeper and work out some costs if you are interested.

 

[sammcneill]

Ok - so I thought I'd borrow my Dad's new HS Rohloff MultiCharger and do my 5km work commute (albeit on a Saturday) and compare it with a random normal commute on my HS Enviolo SuperCharger 2.

This was the "work in" on the HS Rohloff - note the max speed of 42.3kph and average speed of 33.2kph

This compared to a pretty typical "work in" commute from Friday on my HS Enviolo (max speed 33.5kph and average speed of 27kph)

Similarly, on the "work out" simulation on the HS Rohloff (it was very busy Saturday lunchtime traffic so I could not really go as fast as I would like) - max 39.6kph and average 31.4kph:

Compared to Friday's real work out commute on HS Enviolo (max 34.2kp and average 27.3kph)

So, irrefutable proof the HS Rohloff is noticeably faster than the HS Enviolo by 4-6kph across a short 5-6km commute.

the Multicharger setup was not ideal for me - seat was a bit too low, frame a touch too small.

you can see my HR average was higher on the HS Rohloff which makes some sense - I was leaning into it with the extra gearing enabling me to go faster, but the seat being a bit low did mean I was having to work a bit harder too.

Definitely got me thinking about the retrofitting of the Rohloff to my HS SuperCharger 2.