Still searching for the perfect ultra-light ebike kit for road bikes — here’s the idea in my head

[Gionnirocket]

I'm anxiously awaiting the debut of K&F ultra light high torque motor.

 

[stompandgo]

I personally like the DM02 motors from ToSeven. I can supply discerning folks miles away with factory support in English from someone who knows the ins and outs, me. The motors are light, universal fit, and robust. Here is one on a trike. These are fully end user programable, challenge me on that. 90Nm. I can walk people through the entire install and programing. They kick azz over anything retail to the huddled masses like Specialized. How many degrees of angle do you want before kick-in 2, 3? What about perkey responsiveness vs. smoothness. That is all yours and more to dial in. The palmed sized silver thing between the pedals is the motor.

This system looks very interesting. Two things I could not figure out. What kind of connectivity is provided for external bike computers? What if I wanted to use Magura hydraulic brakes?

 

[PedalUma]

Firstly on brakes. When using torque sensor bikes without handlebar throttles, one does not want brake cutout levers. Secondly, magnet cutouts are optional for hydraulic systems. I do not want the extra wires and do not do throttles. I have only been using these for 18 months and was never into things such as posting my rides so, I am not sure about the wireless displays, and how their Bluetooth integrates with other bike computers. It is monitoring your input watts for example, but does not display that information.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Bluetooth

LEV ANT+.
They apparently don't.

 

[Mike_V]

I've done quite a bit of research on e-bike kits and have some thoughts.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I’m looking for a kit that is compatible with my lightweight road bike (Scott Addict).
A few days ago, I tried out the Scott Addict eRIDE 30 and confirmed that the torque from the Mahle X20 is enough for my needs.
After looking around, I realized most conversion kits on the market weigh around 4 kg.

I consulted with my engineer friend, who's a seasoned motor expert. He told me that the size of the motor has a lot to do with torque. I asked him if it's possible to have a motor with the torque of the Mahle X20, but smaller in size.
To my surprise, he told me it could be at least 30% smaller than the X20.

So, based on our conversation and my ongoing research, I've come up with an idea:
Is it possible to create an ultra-small, ultra-light hub motor? (Of course, it needs to ensure it has enough torque for hill climbing.)

OK I've read it all and for $1,750 you could have been riding what I believe, you are desiring.

Luna Fixed Stealth Ebike

The most Stealthy bike on the market, with a hidden battery and discreet mid drive motor... this bike looks like an ordinary road bike but packs a big punch.

lunacycle.com

 

[stompandgo]

Firstly on brakes. When using torque sensor bikes without handlebar throttles, one does not want brake cutout levers. Secondly, magnet cutouts are optional for hydraulic systems. I do not want the extra wires and do not do throttles. I have only been using these for 18 months and was never into things such as posting my rides so, I am not sure about the wireless displays, and how their Bluetooth integrates with other bike computers. It is monitoring your input watts for example, but does not display that information.

I'd want to set it up as a "speed-pedelec" like I have now, so torque sensor, no throttle. If the torque curves are settable as you say, I can get cadence data from a strap on BTLE cadence sensor. That leaves the power. Is there a list of crankarms that the motor accepts? Does it also provide 12V power for lighting?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

OK I've read it all and for $1,750 you could have been riding what I believe, you are desiring.

Luna Fixed Stealth Ebike

The most Stealthy bike on the market, with a hidden battery and discreet mid drive motor... this bike looks like an ordinary road bike but packs a big punch.

lunacycle.com

Scott Addict pedal bikes come in the price range of US$2,600 to 6,500.
Who would think a premium road e-bike might cost 1,750 dollar only

 

[BlackHand]

Scott Addict pedal bikes come in the price range of US$2,600 to 6,500.
Who would think a premium road e-bike might cost 1,750 dollar only

What's crazy is that the Addict eRide versions on clearance are better specced than the equivalent price acoustic Addict. Ultegra level components for $3500 on the eRide RC 10.

 

[PedalUma]

crankarms

power

It will take any square taper crank arms that have no drive-side spider. Check the Q-factor. The chainring attaches to the motor not the pedal shaft. If you pedal backwards it does not move the chainring. Power for a light kit is at 6V and has a Y-splitter. A DC step-up converter cost like $14. A rockin' AC/DC converter is a separate topic.

 

[Bicyclista]

OK I've read it all and for $1,750 you could have been riding what I believe, you are desiring.

Luna Fixed Stealth Ebike

The most Stealthy bike on the market, with a hidden battery and discreet mid drive motor... this bike looks like an ordinary road bike but packs a big punch.

lunacycle.com

The Luna is 39 lbs. The OP rides a non-electric Scott Addict which probably weighs around 17 lbs. (unless she spent $16,000 for the 13 lbs. version). She thinks the Scott Addict eRide is too heavy at 24 lbs. The Luna is not in the same ballpark.

 

[mschwett]

The Luna is 39 lbs. The OP rides a non-electric Scott Addict which probably weighs around 17 lbs. (unless she spent $16,000 for the 13 lbs. version). She thinks the Scott Addict eRide is too heavy at 24 lbs. The Luna is not in the same ballpark.

facts

 

[PedalUma]

The Luna is 39 lbs. The OP rides a non-electric Scott Addict which probably weighs around 17 lbs. (unless she spent $16,000 for the 13 lbs. version). She thinks the Scott Addict eRide is too heavy at 24 lbs. The Luna is not in the same ballpark.

Really when you have power assistance weight does not mean as much. It is like saying Santana's guitar is heavier than Bob Dylan's before Dylan plugged in at Newport in 1964. Yes, at the same time a Treo could play a song about butterflies and zebras, Fairy tales

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Really when you have power assistance weight does not mean as much.

Yes, a motor can offset the adverse effects of weight on acceleration and climbing. But motor or not, weight still counts WRT responsiveness and handling. And those qualities could well be important to someone with the OP's current lightweight road bike.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

You guys cannot change the road cyclist mindset explaining the motor would replace them. That's why all road e-bikes are very lightweight as for an e-bike. And that's why Mahle was successful with the x35 and x20 for a while. Were Mahle hub motors more reliable...

Specialized had a lightweight mid-drive motor Creo 1 but that didn't sell in the biggest e-bike market (the EU: who on earth rides a road bike at 25 km/h!) so the brand went for a lightweight gravel e-bike (Creo 2) that has a bigger chance to sell in Europe.

 

[PedalUma]

weight still counts

I agree. And, placement of weight counts. If added weight is low and centered and non-rotational it does not matter very much. Once up to speed that type of weight adds to momentum smoothness/stability. I did not like those X35s. You could turn up the power to max, place it in the lowest gear, pedal with no force at a cadence of 15 and they would quickly accelerate up to a top speed of 15.3 mph and then take a dump by cutting off power. The range doing that was 8-10 miles. Having a heavy rear end lead to pour handling and pinch flats. And adding a range extender was $650 for something like an additional 5.5 Ah. People would kit out to ride that junk such as the Orbea Gain made in Spain. Clipping in to ride a ghost-pedal cadence sensor was an inside joke. I still sold them; no accounting for tastes.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

People would kit out to ride that junk such as the Orbea Gain made in Spain. Clipping in to ride a ghost-pedal cadence sensor was an inside joke. I still sold them; no accounting for tastes.

View attachment 193476

Made in the Basque Country actually. Pretty famously from there. Owned by a a worker cooperative originally established in 1840 by the Orbea brothers and currently selling approx 200,000 bikes a year. The Gain is hugely popular currently with 13 carbon & alloy versions on sale and winner of many awards including the US Outside magazine Gear Of The Year award in the road bike category. Pretty clear from your entries here you have zero clue about lightweight road bikes.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

You guys cannot change the road cyclist mindset explaining the motor would replace them. That's why all road e-bikes are very lightweight as for an e-bike. And that's why Mahle was successful with the x35 and x20 for a while. Were Mahle hub motors more reliable...

Specialized had a lightweight mid-drive motor Creo 1 but that didn't sell in the biggest e-bike market (the EU: who on earth rides a road bike at 25 km/h!) so the brand went for a lightweight gravel e-bike (Creo 2) that has a bigger chance to sell in Europe.

One thing I think you always forget is that large parts of Europe are very hilly, unlike Warsaw and environs. Yes the 25km cut off is at an awkward speed on flat roads riding on your own, but in hills or a headwind the motor assistance is fine because you are mostly riding below that. And in a group you are sheltered and although the group (on the flat) is probably above 25km you don't have to do much work sheltered from the wind as roadies are, tyre to tyre out of the wind. A large number of older roadies go for the mahle equipped hub bikes because the low weight is paramount when riding in a group- the assist gives them enough extra grunt to stay in touch with the other riders on inclines and light enough that over the cut off they can still keep up while sheltered - without an unassisted weight penalty of a heavier mid drive set up. That is one of the main markets in Europe for these bikes, strong, long term, roadies who through age or illness have lost a bit of edge but are still very fit. Just need a boost now and then to keep up with the Sunday group when the going gets tough. From what I also see on forums the Mahle motors seem much more reliable nowadays and still selling well.

 

[Gionnirocket]

¡BAZZINGA!

 

[EMGX]

Just for the sake of discussion, not really for the OP for whom this all seems to be a thought exercise - besides the Keyde torque sensing 142mm thru axle compatible rear hub motor kit (which is 2 pounds heavier than the Mahle hub and offers 35nm torque vs Mahle 23nm) there is the ultra light Qiroll 240W (continuous) friction drive. Qiroll Mute plus motor weighs 520g and the smaller battery 700g for a total of ~2.7 pounds so a 17# bike would end up ~20#. I have a Qiroll on a bike that equiped is ~30# and despite that I'm much heavier than the OP the Qiroll adds noticeable assist even on hills. I've ridden mine on long 5-8% grades as well as 10+%. Qiroll have been installed on carbon frame bikes including someone who posted on this forum. There are limitations, the worst of which is the stock friction layer (there are alternatives that work well) and tire tread types (works best on road tires) but it does work and would likely work better on a lighter bike with a lighter rider than my experience.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

One thing I think you always forget is that large parts of Europe are very hilly, unlike Warsaw and environs. Yes the 25km cut off is at an awkward speed on flat roads riding on your own, but in hills or a headwind the motor assistance is fine because you are mostly riding below that. And in a group you are sheltered and although the group (on the flat) is probably above 25km you don't have to do much work sheltered from the wind as roadies are, tyre to tyre out of the wind. A large number of older roadies go for the mahle equipped hub bikes because the low weight is paramount when riding in a group- the assist gives them enough extra grunt to stay in touch with the other riders on inclines and light enough that over the cut off they can still keep up while sheltered - without an unassisted weight penalty of a heavier mid drive set up. That is one of the main markets in Europe for these bikes, strong, long term, roadies who through age or illness have lost a bit of edge but are still very fit. Just need a boost now and then to keep up with the Sunday group when the going gets tough. From what I also see on forums the Mahle motors seem much more reliable nowadays and still selling well.

Ras, these are good points. I overlooked them because I only climbed in high mountains on a Vado 6.0, a heavy but a 520 W 45 km/h e-bike

I can still remember our uphill Turbo ride with Jacek in Sudety Mountains. We were "smoking" any roadie uphill but any of them "smoked" us downhill. We started talking with such riders and had a good laugh together! Like, "I cannot help I gain advantage downhill if you two guys catch up with me uphill!" Eventually we all three reached our finish line at the same time, the roadie and two e-bikers!