Why the big brand (Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano etc.) battery packs cost so much?

[tomjasz]

ill Bosch still be selling the battery in five years

I'm betting there will be alternatives as the ownership of Bosch mid-drives grows.

 

[RunForTheHills]

You talk about proprietary interfaces as if they're this inevitable outcome, and we don't already have a whole analog bike industry largely built on open interfaces, which makes servicing bikes cheap and simple. Proprietary interfaces are proprietary usually because the benefits of open interfaces primarily flow to the users.

The 'shut up and accept what you're given' school of thought. Thankfully antitrust law was implemented precisely in disagreement with your acquiescent approach.

My approach isn't "shut up and accept". My approach is to make an informed decision before I buy the bike. I have never bought an iPhone and use Android phones because I like their more open approach better. I don't have to buy proprietary lightning cables from Apple and I can side load apps outside of the Google Playstore. I have a DIY bike that I can replace the battery on from any number of reputable suppliers, or even build my own battery. The motor kit on it is from Grin with a Phaserunner controller and CA3 display. It is a very flexible configuration. I did buy a Brompton Electric with a proprietary battery and I am okay with buying a replacement battery from Brompton. I wanted the bike for other features, specifically the fold and weight. I paid a premium for the bike and will pay a premium for the battery. That's my choice. You can make a different one.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

You talk about proprietary interfaces as if they're this inevitable outcome, and we don't already have a whole analog bike industry largely built on open interfaces, which makes servicing bikes cheap and simple. Proprietary interfaces are proprietary usually because the benefits of open interfaces primarily flow to the users.

There is a big difference in how easy it is to have an open standard when you can see the mechanical parts with your own two eyes and measure them with a caliper. It is hard to imagine how an analog bike industry that wouldn't have open standards. And even there you can't find the exact formula that Shimano uses for their brake fluid.

Any cell phone licenses on the order of 100,000 patents, probably quite a few more for the latest Apple iPhone. As soon as there is software with nontrivial interfaces and tight coupling between components (both other software and the physical world) it becomes a lot harder to have an open platform. Even if the manufacturers wanted an open platform it becomes challenging, because that implies (1) that they fully document it, and (2) that they maintain compatibility with some form of that platform long enough to matter. Both of those things are enormous challenges in the best of conditions, and basically insane to attempt if the technology is under rapid development.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

... usually because the benefits of open interfaces primarily flow to the users.

Also: wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

Open interfaces don't necessarily benefit any specific group.

A concrete example: most Internet encryption standards (https, IPSec, PEM) rely on patented algorithms and there is exactly one vendor for those patented algorithms. Having a monopoly that is enforced by an open standard is nice work if you can get it!

Another concrete example: almost all of the standards in the cellular world specify technologies which are backed by a bewildering array of patents. Again, having your monopoly enforced by an open standard is pretty damned awesome.

Still another concrete example: Ethernet and WiFi (technically an ethernet) also specify technologies which are backed by patents, though not as impressive an assortment as cellular.

 

[Asher]

My approach isn't "shut up and accept". My approach is to make an informed decision before I buy the bike. I have never bought an iPhone and use Android phones because I like their more open approach better. I don't have to buy proprietary lightning cables from Apple and I can side load apps outside of the Google Playstore. I have a DIY bike that I can replace the battery on from any number of reputable suppliers, or even build my own battery. The motor kit on it is from Grin with a Phaserunner controller and CA3 display. It is a very flexible configuration. I did buy a Brompton Electric with a proprietary battery and I am okay with buying a replacement battery from Brompton. I wanted the bike for other features, specifically the fold and weight. I paid a premium for the bike and will pay a premium for the battery. That's my choice. You can make a different one.

Your framing erases the power of people as citizens to petition their government for (antitrust) regulation, and limit their activity to commercial activity only. It's a common sentiment in America, and also an ecologically, financially harmful one.

There is a big difference in how easy it is to have an open standard when you can see the mechanical parts with your own two eyes and measure them with a caliper. It is hard to imagine how an analog bike industry that wouldn't have open standards. And even there you can't find the exact formula that Shimano uses for their brake fluid.

Any cell phone licenses on the order of 100,000 patents, probably quite a few more for the latest Apple iPhone. As soon as there is software with nontrivial interfaces and tight coupling between components (both other software and the physical world) it becomes a lot harder to have an open platform. Even if the manufacturers wanted an open platform it becomes challenging, because that implies (1) that they fully document it, and (2) that they maintain compatibility with some form of that platform long enough to matter. Both of those things are enormous challenges in the best of conditions, and basically insane to attempt if the technology is under rapid development.

Sure, I don't counsel that every subcomponent of an ebike motor have open interfaces, only where it is plausible to do so, such as between the battery, motor, controller and frame, and that technology not be locked down in a way that only harms the consumer, as with ink cartridges and John Deere tractors.

We already see this kind of separability of components by companies like Grin that sell independent but compatible components.

As for open interfaces, I meant ones that are not dependent on licensing someone else's patent to use. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Xyeet]

My approach isn't "shut up and accept". My approach is to make an informed decision before I buy the bike. I have never bought an iPhone and use Android phones because I like their more open approach better. I don't have to buy proprietary lightning cables from Apple and I can side load apps outside of the Google Playstore. I have a DIY bike that I can replace the battery on from any number of reputable suppliers, or even build my own battery. The motor kit on it is from Grin with a Phaserunner controller and CA3 display. It is a very flexible configuration. I did buy a Brompton Electric with a proprietary battery and I am okay with buying a replacement battery from Brompton. I wanted the bike for other features, specifically the fold and weight. I paid a premium for the bike and will pay a premium for the battery. That's my choice. You can make a different one.

The thing with Apple and Android is that you can use third party chargers, batteries and accessories with those.

 

[Johnny]

Methinks the goalposts keep getting moved in this thread.

For me and the kind of riding I do the Bosch batteries work well and are worth the money. Ride your own ride and make your own decisions.

Good "for you". I am happy that you enjoy your purchase. No one can say anything about that.

But if you try to justify the exorbitant prices by arguments of battery life or safety without backing them up that is a problem.

And about features, the first gen Bosch packs can be rebuilt with higher capacity cells since bms does not brick itself. One of the great added new "features" of the powerpacks is , if it is disconnected from the cells, it bricks and since you can not get a new bms from Bosch itself the only solution is to buy a new battery.

 

[Alaskan]

My turn to move the goal post back to answering the question originally asked by the OP.
This was posted earlier today by a rider from the Netherlands on the Riese & Muller facebook page:

"40,000 km in 3 years, almost all commuter km’s. That is one time around earth…Supercharger HS Rolloff with 2x500Wh.
- 37000km with first gates belt
- 4 rear flat tires, 3 during the first 20k. Since then I use liquid latex. It took another 20k before I got my 4th flat.
- One new engine after 25k under warranty.
Everything else just wear and tear… pretty reliable bike!"

When asked about batteries, the answer was:
"I guestimate about 10% less. Anyway in winter I lose 20%, but I regain that in summertime."

 

[RunForTheHills]

Your framing erases the power of people as citizens to petition their government for (antitrust) regulation, and limit their activity to commercial activity only. It's a common sentiment in America, and also an ecologically, financially harmful one.

This doesn't make sense. Bosch has a lot of competition in the ebike market. They just don't have competition in the Bosch battery replacement market. Patents exist to protect manufacturers' investment in research and development of products. They do expire after a period of time and third parties can develop replacement parts if there is a viable market for them. How do anti-trust laws apply to this situation?

 

[RunForTheHills]

The thing with Apple and Android is that you can use third party chargers, batteries and accessories with those.

The truth is that those third party manufacturers have to pay a license fee to Apple to use their patents. However, I think USB-C may also have a license fee, but not nearly as much.

 

[Asher]

This doesn't make sense. Bosch has a lot of competition in the ebike market. They just don't have competition in the Bosch battery replacement market. Patents exist to protect manufacturers' investment in research and development of products. They do expire after a period of time and third parties can develop replacement parts if there is a viable market for them. How do anti-trust laws apply to this situation?

To be clear, I'm not saying that the prevailing antitrust establishment (which of course varies over time) agrees with me, but that it's in the spirit of antitrust as well as consumer protection that I make my remarks.

Right now, there are people asking the government to set or clarify standards around EV charging. The problem of ebike batteries is a lot less pressing, but the concept of government(s) ordering around the private sector for public benefit is the same.

The government for instance could make an e-bike subsidy depend on whether an ebike uses open interfaces. California's EV subsidy required ten year warranties on batteries for instance.

 

[Xyeet]

My turn to move the goal post back to answering the question originally asked by the OP.
This was posted earlier today by a rider from the Netherlands on the Riese & Muller facebook page:

"40,000 km in 3 years, almost all commuter km’s. That is one time around earth…Supercharger HS Rolloff with 2x500Wh.
- 37000km with first gates belt
- 4 rear flat tires, 3 during the first 20k. Since then I use liquid latex. It took another 20k before I got my 4th flat.
- One new engine after 25k under warranty.
Everything else just wear and tear… pretty reliable bike!"

When asked about batteries, the answer was:
"I guestimate about 10% less. Anyway in winter I lose 20%, but I regain that in summertime."

Yes and yet again that is due the cells Bosch are using, Bosch doesn't manufacture the cells themselves. Everyone else has the same access to to the same Generic Samsung/LG/Panasonic cells!

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Yes and yet again that is due the cells Bosch are using, Bosch doesn't manufacture the cells themselves. Everyone else has the same access to to the same Generic Samsung/LG/Panasonic cells!

You can't really argue with real-world results, though.

Two things could be going on: (1) Bosch may only be accepting cells that pass a stricter quality check. (2) Bosch has very clever battery management software.

I have directly observed that battery life (in terms of charge/discharge cycles) seems to be longer from Bosch batteries than from batteries sold with other e-bikes.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Sure, I don't counsel that every subcomponent of an ebike motor have open interfaces, only where it is plausible to do so, such as between the battery, motor, controller and frame, and that technology not be locked down in a way that only harms the consumer, as with ink cartridges and John Deere tractors.

We already see this kind of separability of components by companies like Grin that sell independent but compatible components.

As for open interfaces, I meant ones that are not dependent on licensing someone else's patent to use. Thank you for clarifying.

Oh, come on.

The simple fact of the matter is that an individual cannot possibly make a cell phone, even if they had access to a fab, because of the bewildering array of patents that you need to license to build a system that talks to 4G or 5G or any other cellular standard. Yes, it is great that you can use a micro-usb cable to charge most cell phones, but in terms of the primary function of the gadget it is essentially a closed platform to any mortal. Which is one reason two companies own the majority of the cell phone market in advanced countries.

You are using "proprietary" as a synonym for "bad" or "evil", except where you don't consider it relevant. Which is no objective standard at all.

 

[Xyeet]

You can't really argue with real-world results, though.

Two things could be going on: (1) Bosch may only be accepting cells that pass a stricter quality check. (2) Bosch has very clever battery management software.

I have directly observed that battery life (in terms of charge/discharge cycles) seems to be longer from Bosch batteries than from batteries sold with other e-bikes.

With your generic quality cells you can expect at least 500 0-100% charges. If you charge only to 80% and deplete to 20% you can expect over 1000 charges out of those cells. With so high mileages it's more to do how you manage your batteries(not depleting to 0% and not charging to 100%).

 

[Mr. Coffee]

With your generic quality cells you can expect at least 500 0-100% charges. If you charge only to 80% and deplete to 20% you can expect over 1000 charges out of those cells. With so high mileages it's more to do how you manage your batteries(not depleting to 0% and not charging to 100%).

Bosch claims 1500 cycles for their batteries. I don't know if that is true (but it is consistent with my direct observations) but if it is it substantially explains the cost difference.

 

[Johnny]

You can't really argue with real-world results, though.

Two things could be going on: (1) Bosch may only be accepting cells that pass a stricter quality check. (2) Bosch has very clever battery management software.

I have directly observed that battery life (in terms of charge/discharge cycles) seems to be longer from Bosch batteries than from batteries sold with other e-bikes.

These results are perfectly in line with the cell life tests and nothing extraordinary. In the example each battery has around 12500 miles and the degradation is reported to be between %10-20. This is exactly what we expect from these cells in the worst case regardless who made the battery pack ( We already computed the worst case expected degradation is <%20 around 20-25K miles so 12.5k per pack should lead to the observed degradation).

 

[Asher]

Oh, come on.

The simple fact of the matter is that an individual cannot possibly make a cell phone, even if they had access to a fab, because of the bewildering array of patents that you need to license to build a system that talks to 4G or 5G or any other cellular standard. Yes, it is great that you can use a micro-usb cable to charge most cell phones, but in terms of the primary function of the gadget it is essentially a closed platform to any mortal. Which is one reason two companies own the majority of the cell phone market in advanced countries.

You are using "proprietary" as a synonym for "bad" or "evil", except where you don't consider it relevant. Which is no objective standard at all.

We are talking about bikes, not phones. I agree that phones pose more tradeoffs, and the end state is not DIY modular phones anyway, but greater possibility and availability of repairs. Plus people are increasingly holding their phones for longer as progress becomes more gradual.

Apple Told Congress How Repair Should Work. They Were Intentionally Misleading. | iFixit News

Apple’s responses to Congressional questions on repair practices are … interesting, to say the least. We respond, in detail.

www.ifixit.com

 

[Asher]

Bosch claims 1500 cycles for their batteries. I don't know if that is true (but it is consistent with my direct observations) but if it is it substantially explains the cost difference.

It would be good to know what if anything is behind that claim, given that it uses similar cells to other makers. Yamaha offers a longer warranty in their battery, yet theirs do not cost more.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

It would be good to know what if anything is behind that claim, given that it uses similar cells to other makers. Yamaha offers a longer warranty in their battery, yet theirs do not cost more.

It would be nice if all such claims on both sides of this discussion were held to the similar standards.

FWIW My understanding is that the warranty on their batteries is for 1000 cycles or 2 years.