ruffruff
Well-Known Member
There are lots of reasons why you buy what you buy. Still doesn't mean there isn't a massive mark up.
Why the big brand (Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano etc.) battery packs cost so much?
- Thread starter Xyeet
- Start date
Alaskan
Well-Known Member
Yup they make better stuff and charge for it.
I have ten year old Bosch rechargeable power tools that have been rode hard and put away wet and they still not only work but do so nearly, if not as well, as they did when new...they look old though.
We had a Bosch dishwasher on our boat, doing dishes 3 times daily for 9-14 people and it was a rock solid reliable work horse.
I've also trusted them for decades as the maker of most electrical components in our cars.
I have yet to regret buying anything made by Bosch, even when it costs more than the competition. In my experience Bosch stuff works and rarely breaks down.
I have ten year old Bosch rechargeable power tools that have been rode hard and put away wet and they still not only work but do so nearly, if not as well, as they did when new...they look old though.
We had a Bosch dishwasher on our boat, doing dishes 3 times daily for 9-14 people and it was a rock solid reliable work horse.
I've also trusted them for decades as the maker of most electrical components in our cars.
I have yet to regret buying anything made by Bosch, even when it costs more than the competition. In my experience Bosch stuff works and rarely breaks down.
fooferdoggie
Well-Known Member
of course there is. but there is a massive markup on the cheap Chinese stuff too. but since it is so much cheaper it seems fine.
Xyeet
Member
If you buy in bulk like large manufacturers do you can get quality panasonic/lg/samsung cells for as low as 2 dollars per cell. As this Bloomberg graph shows what is in my original post also shows that for manufacturers on average for 1 kWh battery cells costs only 102 dollars anymore : https://about.bnef.com/blog/battery...in-2020-while-market-average-sits-at-137-kwh/
For large manufacturers the cells doesn't cost that much even if they use quality Samsung/Panasonic/LG cells. As you can see from that Bloomberg graph cells for 1 kWh costs only 102 dollars on average in 2020.People who always focus on lowest cost will never be persuaded by value factors. Their cheap stuff breaks down more often adding to their suspicion of all manufacturers and making them feel like "they" are all out to rob and cheat them.
Banging your head against a wall only feels good when you stop
I think you fail to understand that you don't need cheap Chinese stuff since high quality cells are really cheap now days. The Bosch etc. batteries just makes it seems like they are expensive but they are not. Even regular person who is not buying in bulk can get quality Samsung q30 cells for $4 per cell.
If you want ebike battery from small manufacturer with quality cells and quality bms etc. you have to pay only 500 dollars per 1 kWh. It's over 2 times cheaper compared to big brand mass manufactured batteries which is really odd.
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Ebiker33
Well-Known Member
Quality batteries are expensive in any industry here are 2
Power Tool battery
Power Tool Battery # 2
Power Tool battery
Power Tool Battery # 2
indianajo
Well-Known Member
Some markup is justified over the cells because it is not easy to make a good weld to a LiIon cell. I bought two piles of bad welds from amazon btrbattery & ebay sunebike Baldwin City CA warehouse. Would read good voltage until I drew > 100 watts, where the voltage would collapse. I don't want to attempt to weld the cells; if you make a bad weld and penetrate the case it bursts into flame. I met a guy at the grocery with a mtb conversion who soldered his own battery together. I only saw that bike one more time 2 weeks later. My $630 17.5 ah battery from luna is 3 1/3 years old and doesn't miss a mile. A $1200 battery from bosch is less watthours and is not going to be more reliable.
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m@Robertson
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
Even buying a custom built battery from a USA seller who builds to my specs, I don't pay Bosch prices. They do it because they can and there are customers who will pay it. Using proprietary connectors and internals that handshake with the bike's brain enforces customer loyalty should it ever waver.
Is it worth the price? It is to the buyer. Is the value delivered worth the price increase over even a top quality bespoke pack? Thats a different question entirely. I'll say no but its a free marketplace and people are welcome to buy what makes them happy.
edit: By way of feature comparison the pack that is en route to me now uses Samsung 40T 21700 cells, 14S8P (remember they are 21700's) with a 70a continuous, 100a peak BMS. 32 ah. Connectors to my specification and length. Total price delivered is about $820. Also two packs with Samsung 25R cells, 14S6P, 50a continuous, 70a peak BMS, 12.5ah each. $379 each. 25R cells are old school and not energy dense but they border on legendary with respect to being flogged mercilessly and not even getting warm. I have a 25R pack in almost daily use from 2017 (Luna) and it is still going strong with no signs of degradation. On those new packs, I stay away from bluetooth BMS' because I want no drains of any kind on the pack. If I charge to a certain storage voltage it will stay there for months.
Is it worth the price? It is to the buyer. Is the value delivered worth the price increase over even a top quality bespoke pack? Thats a different question entirely. I'll say no but its a free marketplace and people are welcome to buy what makes them happy.
edit: By way of feature comparison the pack that is en route to me now uses Samsung 40T 21700 cells, 14S8P (remember they are 21700's) with a 70a continuous, 100a peak BMS. 32 ah. Connectors to my specification and length. Total price delivered is about $820. Also two packs with Samsung 25R cells, 14S6P, 50a continuous, 70a peak BMS, 12.5ah each. $379 each. 25R cells are old school and not energy dense but they border on legendary with respect to being flogged mercilessly and not even getting warm. I have a 25R pack in almost daily use from 2017 (Luna) and it is still going strong with no signs of degradation. On those new packs, I stay away from bluetooth BMS' because I want no drains of any kind on the pack. If I charge to a certain storage voltage it will stay there for months.
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fooferdoggie
Well-Known Member
plus doubtful they will burn your house down when charging.
ebikemadtown
Member
Summary of drivers of cost
Design/Production - German company, higher cost. Design cost. Arguably better product/quality.
Sales Distribution - not direct, more people in chain each getting mark-up (not sure if you can buy a battery directly from Bosch?)
Proprietary design - no competition. Value of battery is based on value of bike. Without the battery, the bike is worthless. You can almost price it as a percentage of a new bike's cost.
Anything else?
A question like this often starts a conversation about 'why pay more' and justifying it. Even though the question is simply why is it more expensive.
Design/Production - German company, higher cost. Design cost. Arguably better product/quality.
Sales Distribution - not direct, more people in chain each getting mark-up (not sure if you can buy a battery directly from Bosch?)
Proprietary design - no competition. Value of battery is based on value of bike. Without the battery, the bike is worthless. You can almost price it as a percentage of a new bike's cost.
Anything else?
A question like this often starts a conversation about 'why pay more' and justifying it. Even though the question is simply why is it more expensive.
ebikemadtown
Member
Why would people pay? What is the value for the differenceIt's not just the battery, but everything else too.
Let's take a frame for example.
Why would anyone pay so much money on a Trek frame?
As many of you know, I'm a budget conscious buyer so I'm a huge fan of Chinese ebikes.
I can never understand why people are willing to pay a few hundred $$ (or sometimes close to a thousand?) extra for Trek frame.
They're usually made by 7005 or 6061 aluminum alloy, and Chinese frames will be cheaper and these diamond frames look pretty much the same.
Yet, people are willing to pay extra $ for a Trek frame, even though Chinese frame will give them a frame with the very similar (or same) shape, very similar (or same) weight, very similar (or same) material, etc.
Design/Production - if it is truly a copy, the value could be in quality control. Also brand prestige has value for many.
Sales Distribution - many people do value buying locally for different reasons. Willing to pay premium to put money into the local economy. Having someone to educate them in sales process or in person support for problems. For many it is much easier to go to a store for a 'complex' buying process.
Proprietary Design - in theory unique features can be provided. Also aesthetics of customer integrated batteries can be appealing....
Everyone values these things differently. You would put a low value on much of this. Others probably don't know how much extra they are paying for it to truly value it.... But they do value it enough....
To each their own
fooferdoggie
Well-Known Member
plus not made in china and that adds up too.
So lithium ion battery prices have dropped significantly in the last 10 years. But still Bosch, Shimano, Yamaha etc. sell their battery packs really high prices what could be the reason behind this? You need to pay upwards 700€/$850 for 500Wh battery packs, their pricing is like straight from 2010. Meanwhile for example you can buy general 1000Wh battery packs with quality panasonic/samsung/lg cells for 500€/$605 from EM3EV for example.
View attachment 85886
Battery Pack Prices Cited Below $100/kWh for the First Time in 2020, While Market Average Sits at $137/kWh | BloombergNEF
BloombergNEF’s annual battery price survey finds prices fell 13% from 2019 Hong Kong and London, December 16, 2020 – Lithium-ion battery packabout.bnef.com
View attachment 85759
Unfortunately you are asking this at the wrong place. There are very few people who have the background to answer to this question but they haven't yet.
The most likely answer to your question is profit margins being too high because there is not enough demand or competition to bring it down.
- The cells used in ebikes are the same cells used for car industry.
- Ev batteries if anything is harder to make since you connect far too many cells compared to an ebike battery yet they are far far cheaper.
- If EV batteries were to be priced like ebike batteries just the battery of a Tesla model 3 would probably be $85k +
- Safety is not the justification for inflated prices. Tesla batteries, if anything, are safer than crappy ebike batteries. The company actually does R&D and manufactures cells themselves and know far more than those mediocre ebike manufacturers when it comes to building batteries.
Tired of this nonsense of safety, no one is talking about buying unreliable cheap chinese packs. It is possible to manufacture quality packs for a fraction of the ridiculous prices of the mainstream ebike system manufacturers that is the problem!
@Timpo I have two Trek's both frames are alpha gold and manufactured in China.
Asher
Well-Known Member
Bosch and its name brand competition has a good thing going. By one European retailer survey, Bosch alone had 69% of sales. That's an oligopoly, if not a monopoly, according to antitrust definitions. It's more profitable to get a small cut of oligopoly profits than it is to try and blow up the oligopoly, if the oligopoly can compete with you even at lower prices, which it can. Especially in an environment like with big bike brands and component makers, where the ecosystem is fairly stable and interrelated, and pissing off your colleagues can be very risky to your long term success.
They command high markup on their goods, and they can use some of that profit to keep their dealers and brands happy, and thereby prevent price competition from entities that would otherwise be their rivals. The big brands have no incentive to engage in serious price competition, no more than a few percent. Internet startups do, but they're in many ways not competing, because they don't operate in retail stores mostly, have much less of a footprint in Europe, and also just make lower-end bikes in general.
The few companies that might change this mold, like Canyon, show little interest in the lower end of the e-bike market, and are anyways still a brand that's not going to make their own parts. Also in the US, they seem pretty focused on high end bikes ($2k+ even for analog ones).
How could things change?
A motor maker like Brose is interesting because their motor can be used with third party batteries. If Brose or other motor makers keep their battery interface open, AND reliable low cost battery suppliers emerged, that could upset the apple cart. Brose doesn't seem to have much market share, while Bosch does (I don't know about the other makers and their battery interface standards). For battery competition to arise, the battery OEM would likely need a lot of volume to compete on price effectively.
And even then, the case for Brose specifically as savior may be weak, since they now also make their own batteries, and may eventually forbid third party batteries in new models. Plus, it's not clear that consumers are even aware of the problem, because you aren't buying a battery separately when you buy the bike (I doubt more than 10% of customers buy a spare upon purchase of a new ebike), so a brand has little effort to go to all the trouble to use batteries that are cheaper on the post-purchase retail market, a cost that the end-consumer won't experience until ~5 years later.
Juiced, for instance, was selling the same battery for $500 and $1,300 - $500 if you bought a second battery for your Hyper Scorpion and $1,300 if you bought it separately, same battery. Usually though it's not so obvious.
Also, the battery prices you show are based on non-e-bike sources where costs are significantly lower due to bulk sales, especially Chinese e-buses which have even lower costs than cars.
They command high markup on their goods, and they can use some of that profit to keep their dealers and brands happy, and thereby prevent price competition from entities that would otherwise be their rivals. The big brands have no incentive to engage in serious price competition, no more than a few percent. Internet startups do, but they're in many ways not competing, because they don't operate in retail stores mostly, have much less of a footprint in Europe, and also just make lower-end bikes in general.
The few companies that might change this mold, like Canyon, show little interest in the lower end of the e-bike market, and are anyways still a brand that's not going to make their own parts. Also in the US, they seem pretty focused on high end bikes ($2k+ even for analog ones).
How could things change?
A motor maker like Brose is interesting because their motor can be used with third party batteries. If Brose or other motor makers keep their battery interface open, AND reliable low cost battery suppliers emerged, that could upset the apple cart. Brose doesn't seem to have much market share, while Bosch does (I don't know about the other makers and their battery interface standards). For battery competition to arise, the battery OEM would likely need a lot of volume to compete on price effectively.
And even then, the case for Brose specifically as savior may be weak, since they now also make their own batteries, and may eventually forbid third party batteries in new models. Plus, it's not clear that consumers are even aware of the problem, because you aren't buying a battery separately when you buy the bike (I doubt more than 10% of customers buy a spare upon purchase of a new ebike), so a brand has little effort to go to all the trouble to use batteries that are cheaper on the post-purchase retail market, a cost that the end-consumer won't experience until ~5 years later.
Juiced, for instance, was selling the same battery for $500 and $1,300 - $500 if you bought a second battery for your Hyper Scorpion and $1,300 if you bought it separately, same battery. Usually though it's not so obvious.
Also, the battery prices you show are based on non-e-bike sources where costs are significantly lower due to bulk sales, especially Chinese e-buses which have even lower costs than cars.
People who ignore cost fundamentals will often defend oligopolistic pricing, because they think prices far in excess of cost are essential to quality. Before Toyota brought out Lexus, German brands say luxury cars had to be far more expensive and less reliable than what Lexus offered. And more bluntly, Alaskan's apologia ignores the *trend* over time of prices declining, while Bosch et al batteries haven't.People who always focus on lowest cost will never be persuaded by value factors. Their cheap stuff breaks down more often adding to their suspicion of all manufacturers and making them feel like "they" are all out to rob and cheat them.
Banging your head against a wall only feels good when you stop
Alaskan
Well-Known Member
I am not ignoring anything. I just continue to be pleased with my decision to go with Bosch on my ebikes. A decision that has been rewarded with over 20,000 miles of riding in the past three years with zero battery issues, no replacements and no noticeable loss of capacity.
Over a lifetime as a professional mariner, running boats with long equipment lists and complicated systems as well as a owning a long string of automobiles (including Mercedes and Lexus and other Toyota models) I have learned that there is more to value than just price.
Just to be accurate I do not ignore costs but I also place a high level of importance on:
- reputation
- reliability
- quality
- servicing shop proximity to where I live
- servicing shop frequency in other locations
- ready quick parts distribution
- Company track record, if any, within other product categories
For me, this list represents potentially important added values that are increasingly important as you rely on an item to perform.
I am willing to pay more, sometimes significantly more if I can check most of the above boxes.
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Asher
Well-Known Member
He is asking about the condition of a market, and you are talking about the relative merits of a given brand. A brand can offer the best value and still have inflated prices compared to a (non-existent) competitive market. Same as with say, a tariff - it drives all costs up but doesn't change the relative ranking of one brand vs another. I don't doubt anything you've written there so far as it goes.
Alaskan
Well-Known Member
Actually in the OP's original post the title asks the question;
"Why the big brand (Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano etc.) battery packs cost so much?"
The answer is:
"Why the big brand (Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano etc.) battery packs cost so much?"
The answer is:
- They test each cell before installation and have a high rejection rate, resulting in a more reliable battery.
- They provide a more sophisticated, more trouble free, more completely integrated, package...more plug and play for end user.
- They have earned a global reputation for reliability & parts availability in the bike industry and/or other industries going back decades.
- Those companies have invested in distribution centers, parts support and tech support personnel around the world
- They are more likely to be around next year and five years from now when you might need replacements
- In the case of Bosch they have committed to support & parts on ebike products for 7 years after they stop selling the item.
- And yes, because of the above factors, they can charge more and smart people, who can afford it, are still willing to buy their products.
fooferdoggie
Well-Known Member
I did not buy my Bosch powered bike to worry about battery cost. I bought it because it feels fantastic to ride. Yes the price is high for a battery but the reliability and design is worth it. my bike is my transportation and I want to enjoy it. so its not that big of a deal. Plus I can take that same battery and pop it on my e tandem. I can take my bike to a lot of shops here in Portland and get it taken care of.
Maybe someone who actually knows something more than buzzwords can chime in.
I don't think Tesla is selling cars with untested batteries and their reliability is top notch.
Also locking someone to an ecosystem and forcing them to purchase overpriced battery packs long after the warranty expires is not "support", it is exploitation. That bs has been tried by many companies (HP selling cartridges more than the price of the printers, blocking the refilled cartridges via firmware etc. ) eventually that practice fails when competition steps in...
I don't think Tesla is selling cars with untested batteries and their reliability is top notch.
Also locking someone to an ecosystem and forcing them to purchase overpriced battery packs long after the warranty expires is not "support", it is exploitation. That bs has been tried by many companies (HP selling cartridges more than the price of the printers, blocking the refilled cartridges via firmware etc. ) eventually that practice fails when competition steps in...
