Why the big brand (Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano etc.) battery packs cost so much?

[Asher]

It would be nice if all such claims on both sides of this discussion were held to the similar standards.

What opposing claims are you referring to?

Also, that claim has zero credibility considering it only appears on that website. It's not even Bosch claiming it, just this website saying they did and that claim appearing nowhere else, except in a completely different product category (pic), for cars. Even if it was Bosch claiming it, there's little negative consequence for them if they're exaggerating, so it can't be trusted.

Bosch also systematically misrepresents and violates the law: https://uspirg.org/news/usp/survey-finds-45-50-companies-void-warranties-independent-repair

 

[Mr. Coffee]

What opposing claims are you referring to?

Claims that the cells are identical.
Claims that the BMS are identical or can't make a difference.

FWIW, this page on Bosch's site (item #9) claims they tested a battery in 2015 and it lasted over 1500 cycles (to 30% capacity):

12 questions about the eBike battery

Learn how to safely handle, care for and properly store your eBike battery to increase its longevity. Expert tips for maximum battery safety.

www.bosch-ebike.com

If you don't consider Bosch's material credible, I don't know how I can provide any information that would satisfy you as credible. If you are going to dismiss all opposing points of view in that fashion it is hard to have any constructive discussion.

 

[Asher]

FWIW, this page on Bosch's site (item #9) claims they tested a battery in 2015 and it lasted over 1500 cycles (to 30% capacity):

The usual standard for a battery being at end of life for a vehicle is ~80%. Maybe as low as 70%. A 30% capacity figure doesn't mean much, and 1500 cycles to 30% lifespan doesn't sound especially impressive.

Claims that the cells are identical.
Claims that the BMS are identical or can't make a difference.

The claim is that Bosch uses cells available to others.

It is plausible that Bosch rejects cells that others use, I don't know and haven't claimed one way or the other. I don't know about the BMS either. My own position is that a) these explanations simply don't explain why Bosch battery prices have been stable when cell prices haven't, and b) Bosch has pricing leverage, and it's choosing to use it, as would almost any major corporation in it's position. Selling a rolex that costs $10k to make for $100k doesn't mean it's a badly made watch, it just means the price has little relation to the manufacturing cost.

If you don't consider Bosch's material credible, I don't know how I can provide any information that would satisfy you as credible. If you are going to dismiss all opposing points of view in that fashion it is hard to have any constructive discussion.

I trust Bosch to report what parts it uses accurately, and to relay it's warranty period honestly. Most of the rest, I would seek an independent source. That's why we have the EPA do fuel economy testing, and why something similar is needed for ebikes.

 

[Johnny]

FWIW My understanding is that the warranty on their batteries is for 1000 cycles or 2 years.

Idk where you are getting this but it is mentioned 2 years 500 cycles every manufacturer that uses Bosch, including my own inquiries. The following is from trek.
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/ebike_faq/

What’s the warranty?​

Like all Trek and Electra bikes, the frame is covered by a limited lifetime warranty. Bosch offers a warranty of 2 years or 500 cycles, and Shimano offers a warranty of 2 years or 1,000 cycles for the battery, ...

2 years 500 cycles, everywhere I looked the same info.

FWIW, this page on Bosch's site (item #9) claims they tested a battery in 2015 and it lasted over 1500 cycles (to 30% capacity):

Maybe you should first read the stuff that you quote first? After 1500 cycles it fell down to %30 of original capacity! That is %70 degradation !!! , the battery is long gone at that point, very few people will find %30 of original range usable.

From the same source here is another quote

Even after 500 full charges the battery will still retain a high capacity—60 to 70% of the original capacity will then still be available

This is worse than what the recent cells can do today, at 500 good quality cells usually retain%80+. at that point. %80 of original capacity is what most manufacturers use as reasonable degradation(hence they will not accept warranty claims before that point) while one can get many more cycles after that if the decreased battery life is acceptable.

Bosch's own claims are fine, they are inline with the cells' own test results, every decent battery pack with the same cells will be similar. There is nothing special in the advertised results.

Claims that the cells are identical.

Here look at the cells they have yourself.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=87910

Samsung and Lg cells, you can buy these cells by providing their numbers on them. For example Samsung 29E in powerpack 400 is < $3 per cell when one buys 1000 of them from a regular website (1000 is the equivalent of 25 packs so Bosch buys far more than that and not from a reseller).