Why do the big bike brands (almost) never use hub motors?
- Thread starter Asher
- Start date
fooferdoggie
Well-Known Member
tell me how that hub drive has done after 12,000 miles thats what I will have on my mid drive in 2 years.
steve mercier
Well-Known Member
3000 miles you say? It was not until 6000 km that I decided once and for all to toss my hub driven bike into the scrap heap at the corner of my backyard and move to a mid drive. I have about 45000 km on my mid drives now and there is no looking back. Yes they cost more , but they make me want to ride more. In general you get what you pay for.
Last edited:
Well if my bike won't run anymore in less than 700 miles I'll rethink my position.
steve mercier
Well-Known Member
Gordon If you are happy with it ,then that is all that matters. Different strokes for different folks.
creativepart
Active Member
- Region
- USA
I built a good hybrid bike in the garage with a 750w rear hub drive and rode it 1000 miles. It was great fun, worked superbly and climbed hills without any issues.
But I wanted to experience a hub drive. So, I took all of the hub drive stuff off (except the 48v 13ah battery) and replaced it with a Bafang BBSHD mid-drive kit.
I have a bit less than 200 miles now on the mid-drive and I can definitely say... they are both very good. I'm not at all sure which I prefer. I like the display better on the Bafang. But other than that?
The rear hub drive is more torquey and picks up from a dead stop much better. But the mid-drive is faster overall once it gets up to speed.
Both use the gears about the same. Both climb hills, but the hub drive did so a bit quicker/easier.
When I bought the Bafang mid-drive kit ($700 without a battery) I thought I'd sell the rear hub-drive wheel and parts (original cost $800 WITH a battery). But now, I'm thinking I may not want to. I may decide to reinstall it some day.
YMMV
But I wanted to experience a hub drive. So, I took all of the hub drive stuff off (except the 48v 13ah battery) and replaced it with a Bafang BBSHD mid-drive kit.
I have a bit less than 200 miles now on the mid-drive and I can definitely say... they are both very good. I'm not at all sure which I prefer. I like the display better on the Bafang. But other than that?
The rear hub drive is more torquey and picks up from a dead stop much better. But the mid-drive is faster overall once it gets up to speed.
Both use the gears about the same. Both climb hills, but the hub drive did so a bit quicker/easier.
When I bought the Bafang mid-drive kit ($700 without a battery) I thought I'd sell the rear hub-drive wheel and parts (original cost $800 WITH a battery). But now, I'm thinking I may not want to. I may decide to reinstall it some day.
YMMV
Mr. Coffee
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- A Demented Corner of the North Cascades
I find it interesting if you look at the photo threads here the people who are living the dream with their e-bike are all doing so on a mid drive. I also find it interesting that very few of the people who have tried both advocate passionately for hub drives.
My own view is that both types have their use cases and that both types can peacefully coexist.
My own view is that both types have their use cases and that both types can peacefully coexist.
In general, but not always. From thousands of miles riding bikes with Tongsheng TSDZ2 torque sensing mid drives (I have two kits on bikes at $410/kit, plus batteries) as well as a Yamaha PW-SE gravel bike - in my experience the cheap tongsheng performance compares favorably with the Yamaha. Plus you can buy virtually any replacement part for the tongsheng easily and inexpensively whereas with Yamaha and others there aren't many options other than to replace the motor. I haven't had any need for replacement parts but I did buy a spare plastic gear for $8 from Walmart. I have a cadence sensor geared rear hub motor bike and my wife rides a bike with a geared front hub motor - they work well but when choosing a bike to ride myself I always choose a torque sensing mid drive equipped bike, and usually one of the Tongsheng bikes over the Yamaha.
john peck
Well-Known Member
Each has advantages & downsides.
rich c
Well-Known Member
You have looked inside both mid drive and hub drive motors? They are not just the same motor in different positions. Controllers for one thing. Hub motors have external controllers. I find that most people who claim they are the same, have never ridden a mid drive.
m@Robertson
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
hub motors power thru the axle and cannot use gearing to help get up a hill. Think of how unhappy you would be if you were stuck on a fixie and had hills to climb. That hub motor is just as much out of its comfort zone.
Flat ground and pavement - hub motor all the way. Hills or off-road - you want a mid. Heavy loads - hills or no - you want a mid. I started building bikes that were hub motors. I graduated to mids because they proved to work better. If a hub could compete I'd still be building bikes with them.
But... actually I still am. Hub motors are required on the front wheel, and I build AWD bikes. Performance in the steep hills of the Monterey Bay area is nothing short of miraculous when the two technologies join forces. But I actually built my first mid drive bike specifically because of the failure of hub technology to survive in this area. I had a super-strong 2-motor awd bike that just hated the hills, and I didn't want to wreck the thing forcing a square peg into a round hole.
Flat ground and pavement - hub motor all the way. Hills or off-road - you want a mid. Heavy loads - hills or no - you want a mid. I started building bikes that were hub motors. I graduated to mids because they proved to work better. If a hub could compete I'd still be building bikes with them.
But... actually I still am. Hub motors are required on the front wheel, and I build AWD bikes. Performance in the steep hills of the Monterey Bay area is nothing short of miraculous when the two technologies join forces. But I actually built my first mid drive bike specifically because of the failure of hub technology to survive in this area. I had a super-strong 2-motor awd bike that just hated the hills, and I didn't want to wreck the thing forcing a square peg into a round hole.
steve mercier
Well-Known Member
I have not ridden a front hub motor bike. however this morning a young man passed me on one ( a road bike with a kit ) and then I watched as he failed to negotiate the turn at the intersection and hit the far curb. I do not know exactly what he did wrong ( excessive speed must have played a part of course and the ground was wet as it will be here in November) but it did make me think that the handling characteristics must be quite different.
Last edited:
m@Robertson
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
I personally would *never* ride a front-motor-only bike. I see plenty of instances where the motor is improperly installed by a beginner and it snaps the fork dropouts, or spins out in them which ruins the fork. Also, front-power-only is inefficient - you get better results in the rear. However if you are trying to do a quick-and-easy conversion its hard for a newbie to resist just plugging in a new front wheel and putting a battery in a bottle cage mount.
Front wheel power is not much different, but there are a couple of issues you need to learn your way around and what you saw is one of them. Usually it only takes about one ride and one turn to figure it out. An excerpt from my AWD explainer directly addresses what you saw I think:
Excerpted from this:
Dual Motor AWD Electric Bikes (the good and bad)
I like to build top-quality-component ebikes from the frame up. Quite a few of them are dual motor or AWD or 2WD or whatever you want to call them. Why would you build an AWD ebike?
talesontwowheels.com
I have a GMAC 10T on a 1983 Stumpjumper mountain bike with a double chainring and an 8 speed cassette. I have no problems climbing hills but I use the gears as you would on a regular bike, the pedal assist level is usually about 25-30% and I occasionally use the throttle to go a little faster.
I am very happy with it, but I plan to try a mid drive on another bike for more of an off pavement trail bike.
For average non mountain bike use, I can see no reason for the hub drive to be inferior. For steep off pavement use, mid drive might be better. I hope to find out.
I am very happy with it, but I plan to try a mid drive on another bike for more of an off pavement trail bike.
For average non mountain bike use, I can see no reason for the hub drive to be inferior. For steep off pavement use, mid drive might be better. I hope to find out.
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
I have a well loved/used bike w/MAC 12t power and USED to have the same viewpoint. I can assure you though, that a similarly powered mid drive will likely change your mind (adjust your view point). Nothing life changing, but you'll find something like a Bafang BBSHD powered bike educational for sure! I have an Bafang Ultra powered bike as well as the MAC powered bike and consider both great (awesome!!). The Ultra requires more of it's rider (need to stay on the gears), and is easily the more capable climber (on or off road). The MAC geared hub bike though, is WAY easier/brain dead to ride, requireing very little of it's rider. Both bikes are generally ridden in PAS 1 or 2, knowing full well there's WAY more on tap should the occasion demand it. -Al
dodgeman
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Macomb, Illinois
Before we bought our Treks we rented a couple of different e bikes. One was a Pedigo that was rearhub drive. I’m almost positive it was a ClassIII with a throttle. It seemed to have plenty of power to climb hills to me but I also suspect it has a more powerful motor than my current Trek Verve+3. The Pedigo didn’t deliver the power as smoothly but other than that was fine.
If I wanted a city bike then I have lots of options for bikes and no issues with a Class I bike with a rear hub drive. For road biking I want conventional tires that I can quickly repair with a puncture and that means a mid-drive bike. I also like to pedal at speeds greater than 18 mph and that means a Class III bike and for the lightest bike a mid-drive saves a considerable amount of weight.
Even with Class III bikes a Trek Domaine+ at 37 lbs, weighs 10 lbs more than the Specialized Turbo Creo. The difference is that the Trek has a larger and heavier motor and battery pack. I bought the Turbo Creo which at 27 lbs is not all that different from a standard road bike.
Many people want an e-bike that does not look like one and so will go with a mid-drive bike for that reason alone. Bike manufacturers produce what most people want to buy.
Even with Class III bikes a Trek Domaine+ at 37 lbs, weighs 10 lbs more than the Specialized Turbo Creo. The difference is that the Trek has a larger and heavier motor and battery pack. I bought the Turbo Creo which at 27 lbs is not all that different from a standard road bike.
Many people want an e-bike that does not look like one and so will go with a mid-drive bike for that reason alone. Bike manufacturers produce what most people want to buy.
a) why can't you run "conventional tires" with a hub drive? My road bike is using 700c x 37 tires only because that's what I always rode and was on the bike when I added the kit. They aren't wearing any faster (no spinning tires, etc.), well maybe a bit faster because I'm riding the road bike farther now that I have the assist.
b) quickly repair a puncture? Sure, with a flat I shift to my highest gear, flip the bike over, unplug the motor (Z9 connector, no zip ties those are after the connector), loosen the nuts and pull the wheel. Repair the puncture and do the above backwards. Please don't tell me you're concerned about the extra few grams from carrying a small open ended 18mm wrench in your tool kit.
c) The 500w geared hub motor adds 3kg (6.6lbs) and there's a few additional grams from the 13g spokes in the new wheel, so about the same as the lighter mid drive setups. The battery and controller are a wash, they're the same weight as used on the mid drive. Where's all this weight savings? My road bike is a nice robust steel framed Surly (23-24lbs before anything was added to it), and with the assist it all weighs under 40lbs (and that's with a big 750w battery). I could probably take 2-3lbs off of it by running a smaller battery.
mschwett
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
not sure what the logic here is. some of the very lightest e-bikes are road bikes using the mahle x35 rear hub motor system. many are lighter than a turbo creo. there's really no inherent reason for a geared hub motor to be significantly heavier (or lighter) than a geared mid-drive motor. the batteries are, of course, identical in weight for the same power/design.
e.g. the orbea gain, cannondale supersix evo neo 1 (<25 lb!) and so on. these bikes are very, very similar in power and range to a turbo creo, and a few pounds lighter. personally i prefer specialized's mid drive and the other features of the SL system but there really isn't a weight argument to be made here, or a "bike manufacturers build what people want" argument either. there are LOTS of examples of both mid-drive and rear hub drive e bikes in the road category.
Similar threads
