Why do the big bike brands (almost) never use hub motors?

[Stefan Mikes]

curious that for some reason they kept the Electra name in Poland, but not the US!

Probably Trek does not want to lose their reputation It is hard to sell both Madone and Go! at the same time and be respected

It is the U.S. website... Are you sure Trek and Electra are the same brand?

 

[tomjasz]

Are you going to build it

I'm done building. I/m hoping. I'm soon withdrawing from any support calls. ZERO interest in Baffang's latest releases. I haven't ever worked on an Ultra and that leaves me out in the cold trying to support parts and repairs. To many G510 controller problems have pushed me away.

Unless I can't find a step through DD or HD flatfoot crank forward.

If I can't find an eBike with components I can be happy with it's be one more build. I'd jump on an early Towmie. Those frames are absolute tanks and MUCH nicer than the current.

 

[tomjasz]

Electra name is gone.

What a story. Get sued for copyright infringement
Electra sues Trek, Trek settles by buying Electra.
Seems to me both were once built in the USA. But never bothered to confirm.

 

[tomjasz]

Probably Trek does not want to lose their reputation It is hard to sell both Madone and Go! at the same time and be respected

Sorry Stefan but that's just a ridiculous comment. AND pointless.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

@mschwett: Could it be Trek changed their website part to mention Electra overnight?
Click this link please and tell me whether you can see "Electra". It is the U.S. website, referring to the same e-bike you showed:

Townie Go! 7D Step-Over - Electra Bikes

Discover your next great ride with Townie Go! 7D Step-Over. See the bike and visit your local Trek retailer. Shop now!

electra.trekbikes.com

@tomjasz: Really? Why is the Giant brand separated from Momentum one then?

 

[tomjasz]

Really?

WOW! I don't understand your seeming need to take pokes at any eBike that you deem not good for you.
FFS let people have fun. Not everyone can fund $4000+ eBikes. And none seem to sell a class 3 flat foot frame.

 

[mschwett]

@mschwett: Could it be Trek changed their website part to mention Electra overnight?
Click this link please and tell me whether you can see "Electra". It is the U.S. website, referring to the same e-bike you showed:

Townie Go! 7D Step-Over - Electra Bikes

Discover your next great ride with Townie Go! 7D Step-Over. See the bike and visit your local Trek retailer. Shop now!

electra.trekbikes.com

@tomjasz: Really? Why is the Giant brand separated from Momentum one then?

it's really irrelevant - you can walk into a trek store and buy these bikes with a trek badge on them and trek support and write a check to "trek" to buy them - but the branding seems to depend how you get to the page. if you go trek and then ebikes, there's no reference to the townie series being "electra" bikes, but they reference electra technology and the very top ribbon of the website shows electra as one of the trek marquees. no reference to electra in the URL.

they're clearly in a mode of transition, having obtained the company and their designs/manufacturing/marketing many years ago (trek bought electra in 2014!), and not wanting to lose continuity with the value of the name. typical business.

i can't speak for the EU, but i'm confident that in the united states, hub motors are at least 40% of the ebikes on the road and probably much more. go to walmart.com, search for electric bike, sort by "best seller." do a similar experiment on amazon.com looking at the number of reviews - thousands and thousands of reviews from manufacturers like ancheer that sell huge numbers of hub drive bikes. bottom line: hub drive bikes are cheaper and thus there are more of them on the road in the united states.

 

[Vim Fuego]

Given that hub drives have some benefits

What benefits? The road legal ones I tried were awful compared to mid drives (Bosch and Yamaha). The latency was very noticeable and riding it didn't feel natural at all. I paid extra for a mid drive and never regretted it.

 

[tomjasz]

Not needing a hill climber I sold my BBSHD motors in favor of MAC drives. All about what a rider needs.

 

[mclewis1]

Vim, I'm sorry, the following isn't targeted at you. You're just the latest in a long line of folks making a very common blanket statement.

Can we PLEASE stop with the incorrect judgement of the different motors? It's a common situation - someone rides two ebikes, one with a hub motor and one mid motor, doesn't like the feel of the hub motor bike and pronounces hub motor bikes bad, mid motor bikes good. Is the motor the only difference between the two bikes? No, aside from a bunch of variables the big one is usually the control system. The fault of the poor feel doesn't lie with the motor or it's placement, it's more about how the motor is controlled. At this point many folks will then say, "well of course, it's really about having a torque sensor, those cadence enabled systems are awful". And while there is some truth in that there is also a lot of ill informed stereotyping going on here too. You can have a torque sensor controlled system with a hub motor, and it can be really awful, or a cadence PAS based system with a mid motor and it can feel wonderful. It's just not about the hardware, the feel and positive riding experience comes mostly from the control system and how it's configured.

I ride geared hub motor based cadence PAS enabled ebikes, one is an all weather urban commuter and the other is a road bike. With either one the power comes on quickly, smoothly, and progressively, with no jumps or lurches. So I know it's possible to have ebikes like this that work well, even for experienced cyclists who are very particular about the feel. The assist on my ebikes adds to the riding experience, it doesn't overpower or radically change it, it all just feels very natural. The reason this works for me is a high quality and carefully configured control system (Grin Technologies BaseRunner with a Cycle Analyst), but I know there are other control systems that also work equally well. Unfortunately there are also an awful lot more really crappy ebike implementations which tend to negatively affect a lot of folks' experiences. These good and bad characteristics are present on both hub drive and mid motors setups, the key is to understand why they might feel awful rather than to just blame the motor type. This also isn't a DIY vs. commercial ebike difference, as you can buy good and bad versions of either as well.

There are plenty of benefits to a hub motor configuration, just as there are plenty to a mid motor setup ... there's a ton of information in various threads on these benefits. The differences and value of those benefits (or deficiencies) depends on you, your riding style, your riding environment, your budget, your likes and dislikes, etc. etc.

So lets try and put to bed this attitude about the different motor configurations determining how good or bad an ebike is or will be, and instead concentrate on the whole.

 

[AHicks]

Kinda like a desktop computer. If you use a cheap crappy keyboard and/or mouse, that's never going to be your favorite computer. Pitch the junk keyboard and mouse, invest in high quality, and with no other changes that crappy computer turns into a favorite!

It's all about the user interface when it comes to computers, and with some experience (good and bad) most I think will agree it's no different when talking e-bikes.

I have both. I have a 1000w MAC hub drive with a KT controller I'm very happy with (a power based PAS system), and I have an Ultra powered mid drive with the Frey "Smooth" tune installed, making it an outstanding ride as well. The Ultra is a torque based, AND power based making it similar to the MAC powered bike. BOTH are absolutely awesome bikes with incredibly deep reserves of rarely needed power. The hub drive can be ridden in brain dead mode. It's VERY easy to ride. The mid drive requires you to pay a little more attention to what gear you are in - but even that bike can accelerate from a stop in 5th or 6th gear while pulling very low wattage. -Al

 

[mschwett]

What benefits? The road legal ones I tried were awful compared to mid drives (Bosch and Yamaha). The latency was very noticeable and riding it didn't feel natural at all. I paid extra for a mid drive and never regretted it.

they're simpler and able to use standard bicycle frames/designs. i have one of each - a front hub (GASP!) and a mid-drive, and while they're very different they're both great. either one can be designed and set up either terribly, very well, or something in between.

Vim, I'm sorry, the following isn't targeted at you. You're just the latest in a long line of folks making a very common blanket statement.

Can we PLEASE stop with the incorrect judgement of the different motors? It's a common situation - someone rides two ebikes, one with a hub motor and one mid motor, doesn't like the feel of the hub motor bike and pronounces hub motor bikes bad, mid motor bikes good. Is the motor the only difference between the two bikes? No, aside from a bunch of variables the big one is usually the control system. The fault of the poor feel doesn't lie with the motor or it's placement, it's more about how the motor is controlled. At this point many folks will then say, "well of course, it's really about having a torque sensor, those cadence enabled systems are awful". And while there is some truth in that there is also a lot of ill informed stereotyping going on here too. You can have a torque sensor controlled system with a hub motor, and it can be really awful, or a cadence PAS based system with a mid motor and it can feel wonderful. It's just not about the hardware, the feel and positive riding experience comes mostly from the control system and how it's configured.

I ride geared hub motor based cadence PAS enabled ebikes, one is an all weather urban commuter and the other is a road bike. With either one the power comes on quickly, smoothly, and progressively, with no jumps or lurches. So I know it's possible to have ebikes like this that work well, even for experienced cyclists who are very particular about the feel. The assist on my ebikes adds to the riding experience, it doesn't overpower or radically change it, it all just feels very natural. The reason this works for me is a high quality and carefully configured control system (Grin Technologies BaseRunner with a Cycle Analyst), but I know there are other control systems that also work equally well. Unfortunately there are also an awful lot more really crappy ebike implementations which tend to negatively affect a lot of folks' experiences. These good and bad characteristics are present on both hub drive and mid motors setups, the key is to understand why they might feel awful rather than to just blame the motor type. This also isn't a DIY vs. commercial ebike difference, as you can buy good and bad versions of either as well.

There are plenty of benefits to a hub motor configuration, just as there are plenty to a mid motor setup ... there's a ton of information in various threads on these benefits. The differences and value of those benefits (or deficiencies) depends on you, your riding style, your riding environment, your budget, your likes and dislikes, etc. etc.

So lets try and put to bed this attitude about the different motor configurations determining how good or bad an ebike is or will be, and instead concentrate on the whole.

i agree, i don't really understand the "mid-drives are the best everything else is cheap crap" mantra around here. a torque-sensing rear hub drive with good programming can deliver a very smooth and natural ride feel. like a mid-drive with torque sensor it can be programmed stupidly or smartly. cadence sensor bikes are definitely a different animal (my front hub bike is cadence only), suiting a different purpose, and you certainly COULD make a cadence only front, mid, or rear motor bike.

aside from the unfortunate rotating mass of the motor, if i was designing a dream e-road-bike it would probably be a rear hub motor, torque sensor, very small battery incorporated in the downtube or seat tube, super stealthy, super light, programmable to respond to user input just as flexibly as my specialized SL bike. it would be a bummer not being able to use any wheelset i wanted, but losing the giant bottom-bracket bulge of a mid-drive would possibly be worth it!

 

[Johnny]

What benefits? The road legal ones I tried were awful compared to mid drives (Bosch and Yamaha). The latency was very noticeable and riding it didn't feel natural at all. I paid extra for a mid drive and never regretted it.

There are so many posts that answer your question. Instead of stating your uneducated opinion read them. Lag/feel has nothing to do with the motor position it is a matter of controller/sensor configuration.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Owners of hub-drive motors often refer to: PAS, torque sensor, throttle.
A typical mid-drive motor e-bike from big name brand has from four to six sensors and no throttle.
A big difference.

 

[AHicks]

Owners of hub-drive motors often refer to: PAS, torque sensor, throttle.
A typical mid-drive motor e-bike from big name brand has from four to six sensors and no throttle.
A big difference.

What does that have to do with the price of oil?

 

[mclewis1]

Owners of hub-drive motors often refer to: PAS, torque sensor, throttle.
A typical mid-drive motor e-bike from big name brand has from four to six sensors and no throttle.
A big difference.

Counting the number of sensors ... really? Well then at least get the numbers correct.

Hub motor setups can have at least a ...
- Cadence PAS or a bottom bracket torque sensor
- Temperature sensor (integrated into the motor)
- Speed sensor (integrated into the motor)
- Brake lever sensors - optional
- Throttle sensor - optional

What exactly are these mid-drive specific sensors? (and not just additional system functionality like wireless connectivity, battery capacity, GPS, heart rate, etc.) Obviously there are the common external brake and throttle sensors, and then depending on the mid-drive motor manufacturer either the built in cadence or torque sensors, and some have a temp sensor.
- an external inline shift sensor?
- an external speed sensor?

How are the number of sensors in any way an advantage to a mid-drive configuration? I see the shift and speed sensors as something extra required because of the characteristics of a mid-drive configuration.

And I notice another old stereotype being used - that throttles are somehow bad. While there are legal issues in various places and a lot of folks who (IMHO) rely entirely too much on them, there are some really solid advantages to having a throttle on any sort of ebike setup (hub or mid motor). So please lets stop perpetuating this stereotype as well.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The sensors in a class mid-drive motor e-bike that are responsible for a natural ride feeling are these:

1. Rear wheel RPM sensor (a.k.a. speed sensor)
2. Pedalling cadence sensor
3. Pedalling torque sensor
4. Motor RPM sensor
5. Accelerometer
6. Inclination sensor (in some e-bikes, e.g. Giant ones)

There are several more sensors, such as:

• Motor temperature sensor
• Battery temperature sensor
• Brake sensor - optional - can trigger STOP indicator light (my Vado is equipped with it)
• Shifting sensor - optional

 

[mclewis1]

The sensors in a class mid-drive motor e-bike that are responsible for a natural ride feeling are these:

1. Rear wheel RPM sensor (a.k.a. speed sensor)
2. Pedalling cadence sensor
3. Pedalling torque sensor
4. Motor RPM sensor
5. Accelerometer
6. Inclination sensor (in some e-bikes, e.g. Giant ones)

There are several more sensors, such as:

• Motor temperature sensor
• Battery temperature sensor
• Brake sensor - optional - can trigger STOP indicator light (my Vado is equipped with it)
• Shifting sensor - optional

As mentioned in my earlier post items #1-4 and the points below are available on a hub motor setup, #5 and 6 and the battery sensor point have nothing to do with the type of motor, they're system features.

The point is that all these things can be integrated into virtually any ebike setup, regardless of what type of motor is used. So the feel and positive riding experience is not about the motor, it's about how everything is integrated and used. All your harping about poor hub motors is really about the difference between high end expensive highly integrated systems and simpler lower cost less integrated ones.

This is all like someone saying they don't like 4 cyl engines after driving a Yugo and comparing the driving experience to the Mercedes they bought instead ... and the guy in the corner with a custom upgraded 4 cyl Lotus calling BS.

 

[fooferdoggie]

The point is that all these things can be integrated into virtually any ebike setup, regardless of what type of motor is used. So the feel and positive riding experience is not about the motor, it's about how everything is integrated and used. All your harping about poor hub motors is really about the difference between high end expensive highly integrated systems and simpler lower cost less integrated ones.

true but we have not seen anyone actually make a better setup with a hub motor but that one high end company I cant think of the name of.

 

[Johnny]

The sensors in a class mid-drive motor e-bike that are responsible for a natural ride feeling are these:

1. Rear wheel RPM sensor (a.k.a. speed sensor)
2. Pedalling cadence sensor
3. Pedalling torque sensor
4. Motor RPM sensor
5. Accelerometer
6. Inclination sensor (in some e-bikes, e.g. Giant ones)

There are several more sensors, such as:

• Motor temperature sensor
• Battery temperature sensor
• Brake sensor - optional - can trigger STOP indicator light (my Vado is equipped with it)
• Shifting sensor - optional

1. Every ebike has a way of measuring rear wheel rpm to obey the legal speed support. It is not hub or a mid drive specific thing. Hubs use motor position sensor for this one instead of an additional magnet type sensor that most of the mid drives use. So hubs measure motor rpm and this is also used to calculate the speed.
2 - 4 For mid drives a similar position sensor is used to read motor rpm and this data is also used to compute cadence(so these two are not two separate sensors). For hub motors a separate cadence sensor is used. In other words mid drives also measure motor rpm and use it to compute cadence.
3. Again this is not specific to mid drives, hub motors also can have torque sensors as have been stated too many times.

5,6 Most mainstream mid drives does not have these sensors. But more importantly these are once again NOT mid drive specific. Actually Stromer has claimed to have those.

Once again none of these things you have stated is specific to mid or hub drives. Maybe you should first learn these things before throwing them out randomly.