Why do the big bike brands (almost) never use hub motors?

[AHicks]

Look into the MAC motors, Gmac motors, and the new Bafang 1000w geared hubs currently available only for the wide 4" tires.

All of those are 1000w nominal, can/have been pushed much higher pretty easily....

 

[EMGX]

Look into the MAC motors, Gmac motors, and the new Bafang 1000w geared hubs currently available only for the wide 4" tires.

All of those are 1000w nominal, can/have been pushed much higher pretty easily....

I did look into MAC motors but didn't find what looked like a reliable supplier, only some dubious looking AliExpress or the such. Not interested in a fixed internal geared motor like GMAC that doesn't freewheel (as far as I can tell). Also not interested in a fat tire bike and that Bafang wouldn't fit in regular rear wheel dropouts. Pretty much why I ended up with the 500w motor, with possibly a 1000w peak. I hope it will provide what we need. I'll be disappointed, but not be surprised, if it doesn't.

Which hub motor are you running?

 

[Chapooski]

Googled "mac motor" and this was at the top of the the list:

上海星谷信息科技有限公司

 

[AHicks]

I'm running a MAC 12t in one bike. And yes, I realize that for same crazy reason the MAC motor supply has dried up. Hopefully that's a temporary thing.

Noteworthy for your purposes, is that there are narrow 750w Bafangs. It just takes a little homework to find them. They ARE being used in production bikes. Check out the Juiced bike line up for instance.

 

[EMGX]

Googled "mac motor" and this was at the top of the the list:

上海星谷信息科技有限公司

I had seen that manufacturer's web page. It looks like a wholesale source, not direct to customer. No prices and when order button is clicked a company name is required to message the manufacturer (not a buy option).

 

[EMGX]

I'm running a MAC 12t in one bike. And yes, I realize that for same crazy reason the MAC motor supply has dried up. Hopefully that's a temporary thing.

Noteworthy for your purposes, is that there are narrow 750w Bafangs. It just takes a little homework to find them. They ARE being used in production bikes. Check out the Juiced bike line up for instance.

I only found fat tire hub motors of the 750w variety, none of the narrow hubs direct to customer that I could find. I have also read that some of the complete bikes advertised to be 750w are the same as 500w variety with only the controller being different. There seems to be a lot of smoke and mirrors in the ebike market including complete bikes as well as kits or parts. It will probably all come out in the wash eventually. For now I have what I have and hoping for the best. I think I'm done with the installation of my kit except for making some battery wire extensions with the proper connections, overall it was a bit of a pain and took longer compared to the Tongsheng installation that I did on a couple bikes. Hoping to test it out in the next few days depending on weather.

 

[legsofbeer]

>

and those riders who have no intention of climbing hills."

When I want the opinion of a mid-drive afficionado on the ability of hub drives to climb hills, I will write it on the toe of my Sidi's and give it to him. I live in and ride my radrover (stock motor) in one the the hilliest major cities in the country, and regularly do recreational rides in Marin county. Do I have to make a video of a radrover climbing up the top 10 grades in SF? Never had the motor overheat, or even get warm. Brake rotors on the descents, on the other hand...

 

[antboy]

Given that hub drives have some benefits over mid drives, you'd expect them to be fairly common among big bike brands offerings (Cannondale, Canyon, Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc). Not as a complete substitute, but as a common alternative to mid-drive motors. But it seems like there are almost none to be found, even among low end offerings.

One thing that RARELY comes up in the monthly hub vs. mid debates is that Cannondale, Trek, Specialized etc. ARE bicycle companies first and foremost, so it makes sense for them to use a motor type that focuses on...

1) keeping the weight center mass
2) enhancing leg output to drivetrain vs a more "disengaged" force at a hub.

From a "corporate philosophy" perspective it just makes sense that they would use motors that by design focus on the "biking" part of "e-biking".

I'm not saying one is BETTER, just different

 

[Asher]

One thing that RARELY comes up in the monthly hub vs. mid debates is that Cannondale, Trek, Specialized etc. ARE bicycle companies first and foremost, so it makes sense for them to use a motor type that focuses on...

1) keeping the weight center mass
2) enhancing leg output to drivetrain vs a more "disengaged" force at a hub.

From a "corporate philosophy" perspective it just makes sense that they would use motors that by design focus on the "biking" part of "e-biking".

I'm not saying one is BETTER, just different

That's like saying because Toyota started off with sedans it just makes sense that it won't make SUVs.

Companies exist to make money. Corporate philosophy is just a saccharine euphemism for 'how we make money.' And there's no industry closer to the product of a hub motor ebike than the bike industry. If an industry can vary its current offerings to sell more product, it usually will. That's falling apart here, and the question is why.

This isn't a debate about hub vs mid drives. They both have value, so an industry not offering both is very peculiar.

 

[Johnny]

Companies exist to make money. Corporate philosophy is just a saccharine euphemism for 'how we make money.'

Exactly.

As has been mentioned before , for a bicycle company mid drives are the easy way to make ebikes. All they do is to weld the mid drive housing to the frame, and a hollow front tube to accommodate battery and they can slap the mid drive as if they are putting a front fork suspension. Moreover mainstream drives let's them have no responsibility when something goes wrong with the motor. They simply replace the motor and faulty motor/battery is sent back to the manufacturer under warranty. Convenient for the bike company no need for a significant training for the staff.

1) keeping the weight center mass

Yes and that is why we always mention that mid drives are the best choice for mtb applications.

2) enhancing leg output to drivetrain vs a more "disengaged" force at a hub.

No, this is a false conception which is based on budget hub drive bikes . Hubs can enhance rider input as smoothly as any mid drive when proper sensors/controller/programming are used.

Different uses, Hubs are best for high speed commuting/road while mid drives are great mtb and recreational use.

 

[antboy]

That's like saying because Toyota started off with sedans it just makes sense that it won't make SUVs.

It's not like that at all. "Sedan vs. SUV" is a bad analogy for "hub vs. mid", because we're talking motor type, not bike-type.

E-bikes of almost every form factor (eMTB, cargo, folding) are available with hub drives or mid drives, from different companies. If you want to use automobiles as analogy, you would have been better off using "electric" vs. "internal combustion engine".

Companies exist to make money. Corporate philosophy is just a saccharine euphemism for 'how we make money.' And there's no industry closer to the product of a hub motor ebike than the bike industry. If an industry can vary its current offerings to sell more product, it usually will. That's falling apart here, and the question is why.

This isn't a debate about hub vs mid drives. They both have value, so an industry not offering both is very peculiar.

The title of this thread is "Why do the big brands (almost) never use hub motors?"

If the term "corporate philosophy" offends you, then yeah, the major income for big BIKE brands is from pedal bikes. Their customer base is largely pedal bikes. To interest their customers in e-bikes, it makes sense to offer mid-drives, which feel more like pedal bikes. I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts on this being at least part of the reason.

Given the market for VERY inexpensive hub drive bikes, there's really not a lot of incentive for a company like Canyon to dive into that aspect of the market.

I'm NOT saying one type is better than the other. I own and ride both types, depending on what I'm doing.

 

[antboy]

No, this is a false conception which is based on budget hub drive bikes . Hubs can enhance rider input as smoothly as any mid drive when proper sensors/controller/programming are used.

Of COURSE it's based on budget hub bikes, because the bike brands have no interest in low-margin, high volume end of the market, and hub drives have established themselves firmly in that market.

There are so many variations on hubs, from cheap 250W, 8 magnet cadence sensor, geared hubs, to direct drives with torque sensors that eventually, when having a discussion about the "why", you have to look at the market leaders as guidance, so that means bikes with a Bafang 500/750W hub as the reference, not a Stromer, nor a GMAC with custom winding.

Since companies like Specialized and Orbea (just to name two), focus on purpose-driven performance and lightweight bikes, it makes sense that they would focus on mid-drives. One just has to look to the Specialized Vado SL, and the Orbea Rise, to see what direction they're going.

The other point is that the obvious reply to
"Why do the big bike brands use mid drives?"
is
"Why do we care that big bike brands only use mid drives?"

There are plenty of reputable companies making hub bikes in all sorts of form factors, and in different price ranges. The market still has enough of a wild west atmosphere for a brand new company to establish itself in a market that will be growing for years to come.

Do we NEED someone like Specialized to say "hey, let's bang out a sub $1000 hub drive" just because they technically could? Could it be that maybe after decades of cultivating a "brand identity" of performance, they don't want to have their name on "low end" bikes.

I say "low end" from what I assume would be their POV, not my personal one, just to be doubly clear.

Different uses, Hubs are best for high speed commuting/road while mid drives are great mtb and recreational use.

I never said hub drives don't have a use. I'm not sure WHY my comments are being interpreted as such. I just used my hub bike to pick up some cat food.

 

[teskow]

Some electric cars have direct drive hub motors and some drive through a drive line.
200 ton mining trucks are also either hub drive or through drive lines.
So which is the best? Even the engineers can't make up their minds which is a better system.

 

[Asher]

Do we NEED someone like Specialized to say "hey, let's bang out a sub $1000 hub drive" just because they technically could? Could it be that maybe after decades of cultivating a "brand identity" of performance, they don't want to have their name on "low end" bikes.

I say "low end" from what I assume would be their POV, not my personal one, just to be doubly clear.

So your point boils down to big brands think hub drives are crappy, and who cares what they think.

We should care because big brands control or greatly influence the vast majority of decent bikes that people are exposed to, from the big four/five down to even BikesDirect evidently. It's not like ignoring one gas station and going to the one next door.

And the claim that bike brands don't serve the low end just isn't true, they all sell $500 entry level hybrid bikes (putting aside department store bikes because those are fundamentally flawed and disposable).


"low-margin, high volume end of the market, and hub drives have established themselves firmly in that market."
In china (where those brands aren't even very strong) or on obscure internet forums. Not in real world EU/USA. And Vanmoof/Stromer.

My ultimate conclusion is not that far from what you're saying, that brands, dealers and suppliers converged on a high service, high cost solution for mutual benefit, to the discredit of the customer for whom hub drives are a good answer. This thread is about reaching that conclusion. It's just surprising there's very little defection from that seeming 'gentleman's agreement' to date.

 

[AHicks]

Different uses, Hubs are best for high speed commuting/road while mid drives are great mtb and recreational use.

Though I commonly advocate for hub bikes, they would be GEAR DRIVEN hub bikes, and they'll have the same heating issues a mid drive will when forced to go fast for an extended period.

The DIRECT DRIVE hubs can go faster longer, because unlike the gear driven hubs and mid drives, they are MUCH more efficient at getting rid of internal heat build up.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Though I commonly advocate for hub bikes, they would be GEAR DRIVEN hub bikes, and they'll have the same heating issues a mid drive will when forced to go fast for an extended period.

The DIRECT DRIVE hubs can go faster longer, because unlike the gear driven hubs and mid drives, they are MUCH more efficient at getting rid of internal heat build up.

A mid drive is limited to the speed you can peddle. its how hard you push it say going up long hills that could be an issue. I rode 8 miles uphill on our bosch powered tandem with no issues. I dont think it is a big issues.

 

[Johnny]

A mid drive is limited to the speed you can peddle. its how hard you push it say going up long hills that could be an issue. I rode 8 miles uphill on our bosch powered tandem with no issues. I dont think it is a big issues.

Unfortunately no. I can cap my Bosch cx when I push it, I also regularly observe it dialing down if I keep pushing continuously.

Though I commonly advocate for hub bikes, they would be GEAR DRIVEN hub bikes, and they'll have the same heating issues a mid drive will when forced to go fast for an extended period.

This is a good point but it has many variables like what is the gearing, winding, size of the motor etc. I don't think it should be generalized for every geared hub. You are right about larger direct drives dissipating heat well but the main advantage is that at higher speeds direct drives are the most efficient which also significantly help cooling.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Unfortunately no. I can cap my Bosch cx when I push it, I also regularly observe it dialing down if I keep pushing continuously.



This is a good point but it has many variables like what is the gearing, winding, size of the motor etc. I don't think it should be generalized for every geared hub. You are right about larger direct drives dissipating heat well but the main advantage is that at higher speeds direct drives are the most efficient which also significantly help cooling.

well ya speed limit yes but I have never had mine slow down. but it would be hard to push the bike that hard since it is a speed motor. we climbed on our performance motor for over a hour and no problems. but we were not pushing it hard. on my perfomace speed at 28mph i bottom out before the motor does.

 

[Johnny]

well ya speed limit yes but I have never had mine slow down. but it would be hard to push the bike that hard since it is a speed motor. we climbed on our performance motor for over a hour and no problems. but we were not pushing it hard. on my perfomace speed at 28mph i bottom out before the motor does.

Not the speed limit, I am hitting the power limit.

 

[AHicks]

The deal is, both the mid drive and the gear driven hub motors, by design, have very little/poor ability to transfer heat build up thermally. The motors are buried deep within housings, with no air circulating within, or any other method of carrying away heat build up. You can change all the other variables, but that FACT isn't going to change a bit. That's why the direct drive can maintain speed longer, or looked at another way, it's able to shed that heat quicker. Looked at a 3rd way, they're able to rate them at a higher wattage for their ability to shed heat.

So sure, the direct drive is more efficient at speed, and they'll go faster longer, but that doesn't change the fact they suck at lower speeds! Best application is for somebody commuting relatively long distances (15-20 miles or more?) over relatively flat surfaces. Any other application and the geared hub and mid drive will leave them in their dust.

UNLESS you start talking about highly modded bikes with giant battery capacity run at high voltage. There, all bets are off. The direct drives work good there too, for the same reason - their ability to dissipate heat efficiently. In that application, they can provide some of the stupidest e-bike power available.