Why do the big bike brands (almost) never use hub motors?

[FlatSix911]

That would definitely be a big improvement.

 

[Johnny]

Funny that you ask... we swapped rides and he can climb fine with my mid-drive in low gear.

Although this is expected what was the grade and how was your experience with his bike on the same climb?
I also have to agree that one should not generalize hub drives by just looking at a Rad Rover, they are built to be budget friendly.

Also while mid drives make use of gearing and generally are good climbers they suffer from being cadence sensitive in return. If you are pushing hard at lower cadence (riding while standing up for example) this time mid drives will struggle while a hub motor will not.

In terms of climbing, good hub motors climb well however an average mainstream mid drive, thanks to gearing, will be a better climber at steep hills. I can easily climb %20+ on eco on my bosch cx even with a limiting 36x11 cassette which is quite nice.

Also rider+bicycle weight is a big deal while climbing steep hills. I can climb all of these hills on my regular bike, since I don't like using higher support levels I sometimes even prefer my regular bike. In terms of climbing I would like to ride a bike like Vado SL far more than a 50+lbs bike with a stronger mid drive.

Another point I have to add is mid drives are not necessarily more efficient, depending on the speed a hub can be more efficient. Mid drives can keep the efficiency on a wider speed band depending on the gearing though.

 

[Sierratim]

It did take me a little while to learn how, but I ride up every hill I encounter now on my Rad Rover. Maybe we need to define "hill", but there are some pretty decent hills in Middle Tennessee.

Hill:

 

[Tars Tarkas]

Hill:
View attachment 77446

Hills like that are easy! It's going uphill that might be an issue!

TT

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The European class 3 regulation is actually better in that respect, because it allows 4kw, ie enough to actually sustain those higher speeds up a hill.

I would need to see a European 4 kW type-approved L1e-B e-bike yet.

That 25 km/h limit is a different ballgame to your 20/30 mph US limit.

That's not necessarily how you see it from Australian perspective in Europe. Indeed, the L1e-B class (S-Pedelec) is allowed in many European countries (I own one). My type-approved Speed Vado can actually ride at 45 km/h which was proven by my strong brother when I let him commute on my e-bike, and he was overtaking cars slowly driven in traffic jam... He was also overtaking cars uphill on our road mountain ride

Stromer is a different tale. It is only street legal in Switzerland if we are talking Europe. Besides, the Direct Drive hub-motor is extremely heavy and I don't wish anybody repair a flat in a Stromer.

Revisiting the thread title:
High power hub-motor e-bikes are in fact scooters activated by either pedalling or by the throttle. With high power setting, the rider is "ghost pedalling" or pretending to cycle. The mid-motor experience is quite different and natural. Perhaps it is why big brands almost always use proven mid-drive motors from respected brands. The reputation of the motor manufacturer is important, too.

 

[Asher]

I would need to see a European 4 kW type-approved L1e-B e-bike yet.

What do you mean?

High power hub-motor e-bikes are in fact scooters activated by either pedalling or by the throttle. With high power setting, the rider is "ghost pedalling" or pretending to cycle. The mid-motor experience is quite different and natural. Perhaps it is why big brands almost always use proven mid-drive motors from respected brands. The reputation of the motor manufacturer is important, too.

Hub motors appeal to some people and work on bikes. The above doesn't explain why nearly an entire industry would ignore it, despite it being readily available to manufacturers. I don't expect every restaurant to sell sushi, but it would be odd if none of them did.

------

Reading this article by Grin*, I feel like one can't rule out tacit industrial collusion. Bike parts suppliers mostly make high volume, low margin products, made durable and cheap through ruthless competition. And now they a few of them have this golden opportunity to make a product that behaves like consumer electronics - obsolesces quickly, has proprietary standards that lock in customers, force them to pay huge markups on replacement/spare parts, and then leaves them stranded when the product is 'EOLed' (End of Lifed). There's no punishment from customers because all the big bike brands are on board already, and even if there were any alternative, the rising tide of sales growth lifts all boats. The euro wattage limit may be a critical enabler here.

I'm not blaming the bike brands necessarily, since it may be out of reach for them to develop their own system, same as they wouldn't make their own groupset to rival Shimano. But Bosch and Yamaha already make hub motors.


* https://ebikes.ca/getting-started/kits-vs-turnkey.html

 

[FlatSix911]

Here is another viewpoint from a local bike shop owner that specializes in Ebike conversions... it's not my opinion so don't blame the messenger.

WHY WE DO NOT USE HUB MOTORS IN OUR CONVERSIONS
May 20, 2020 Electric Bikes - Island City Bikes, LLC

The electric bike hub motor
"This is a typical hub motor. Hub motors like these are found on every poorly made bike in the world. Hub motors are used on electric bikes for one reason and that is because they are very inexpensive. If one peruses eBay, Amazon, Aliexpress, or Alibaba, one would find thousands of electric bikes for sale at unbelievably low prices and they all have one thing in common...a hub motor. Many electric bike companies that sell their electric bikes online at incredibly low prices also have a hub motor on their bikes. One of the things that are always missing from their promotional material is the weight of their hub motor electric bikes. They omit the weight of the bike because they are very heavy due to the hub motor. At our shop, the number one complaint we hear about hub motor-driven electric bikes is weight and a lack of power.

It is not an exaggeration to say that millions of electric bikes are produced throughout the world with a hub motor. As a manufacturer of electric bikes, we are contacted weekly by Asian eBike companies asking us to buy these hub motor electric bikes with our logo on the frames. We politely refuse and tell them we will stay with the reliable, lightweight Bafang mid-drive. It has been said that I do not like hub drive electric bikes because I am a retailer of Bafang mid-drive motors. First, I am not a retailer of Bafang motors. In fact, at Island City Bikes we do not sell anything to the general public. Our specialty is converting standard bikes into electric bikes using the best motor on the market and that happens to be the Bafang mid-drive. We warranty the Bafang motor for one year...out of our own pocket. That is how confident we are in the reliability of the Bafang motor.

Are all hub motors bad? No, there is a wide spectrum of electric bike hub motors ranging from terrible to excellent. Some hub motors are small, lightweight, and of high quality. However these motors are very limited in power, torque, and speed, and they can be triple the price of a Bafang mid-drive. There are some riders who want to ride an electric bike but do not want to be seen riding an electric bike. That is the market the small hub motor dealer is looking to reach. Then there are the large high powered electric hub motors. These motors can go up to 3000 watts. Again, they are very, very heavy motors.

Bikes with hub motors
We do not build with hub motors as there are too many negatives and too few positives when it comes to an electric hub motor. Nearly everyone I know in the industry that sells electric bike motors do not sell hub motors. The reason they state is that the quality is so poor they have too many people asking for refunds. Hub motors are made by the millions and are used on more electric bikes throughout the world than any other type of motor. They are ubiquitous because they are inexpensive.

Here are the negatives of the hub motor:

1. Shipping is expensive as you have to ship an entire wheel. Or, you can order only the motor and have it laced into a rim when it arrives. However, that is expensive.

2. A front hub motor is dangerous. The motor can pull free of the dropouts on the front fork. In addition, most accidents that occur on a hub driven bike are those where the hub motor is on the front. Being "pulled" by an electric motor is not very natural.

3. Hub motors are heavy...very heavy. Some electric bikes with hub motors weigh up to 70 pounds. There are some hub motors that are light but they are only 250 watts which is not enough power for climbing hills or carrying cargo. In my opinion, 250-350 watt is just too small of a motor for an electric bike.

4. Many (most) bike shops will not work on a bike with a hub motor. By work on I mean no work at all, not ever repair a flat tire. The reason for this is the bikes are too heavy. A bike shop repair stand clamp is 5 feet off the ground. They would have to lift a 60-pound bike 5 feet to get it on the stand. Also, to repair a flat the whole hub motor has to be removed. These motors are bolted to the bike. A bike shop could easily charge $100 to repair a flat on a bike with a hub motor and be within their right to do so.

5. A rider cannot repair a flat while out on the road. If a rider has a flat on the wheel with the hub motor the likelihood they can repair it on the road is pretty much zero. You would have to call for a truck or van to come to retrieve the bike and then you would have to find a bike shop to repair the flat.

It is a many step process to remove a hub motor in order to fix a flat. First, you have to lift the bike off the ground or turn it upside down. That is impossible for most riders due to the weight of the bike. You have to carry wrenches as the wheel is bolted to the frame. You have to disconnect the cable from the motor to the battery. You have to muscle the bike out of the dropouts. Then you remove the tube and insert a new tube and get the wheel back on the bike. The axle of a drop-out motor has to line up with the dropouts or it will not go in. Once the wheel is in place, the power cables connected, the chain back on, and the bike righted then it is finished. Unless the tube is pinched and in that case the tire will deflate and you will have to go through the entire process again.

6. Bikes with hub motors are so heavy they cannot be carried on standard bike racks for cars.

7. Hub motors are typically sealed and cannot be repaired.

8. Hub motors make it impossible to adjust the disk brake pads because the motor blocks access. Disk brake pad adjustment on a bike with a mid-drive motor is a 5-minute job. That same task on a hub motorbike takes an hour....if you can find a bike shop willing to do the adjustment.

Is there anything good to say about hub motors?

A Stanford professor walked into my shop and ask me a few questions. After I answered he chuckled and said, "You are as opinionated in real life as you are on your website." I said, "I hope that is a good thing." He said of course it was as an opinion based on facts is different than an opinion based on hunches, feelings, or intuition. I see motors of all types come into the shop and we convert bikes to electric seven days a week...I know what motors underperform, fail, overheat, and are poorly constructed. To this day I have yet to meet a single person who did not regret purchasing a hub motor-driven electric bike after one-year ownership. In conclusion, I have heard the saying going around the forums that, "Hub driven electric bikes are for those who cannot afford a mid-drive." The Bafang mid-drive does cost a bit more than a hub drive but it will provide years of trouble free performance."

 

[ebikemom]

n summary, I think it's partially the result of big powerful companies that are trying to make more money globally by having fewer skews. This is one reason you may see me cheering on Pedego, Rad, M2S, and some others that offer blend of products with throttles, some with the Bafang mid-drive + throttle setup like we saw from DOST last year

We love our Pedego hub drive bikes. Our bikes are almost 3 years old with nice quiet motors, and lots of miles (4,000 on mine and 6,000 on my husband's)! Maintenance has been tires and break pads and break pads and break pads (I'd love to see some great e-bike specific braking system!!), and lubing the chain. Oh, and the Pedego recall.

There are also a lot of Japanese (in Japan) hub drive bikes made by Bridgestone and Panasonic... but, alas, they don't export to the USA.

 

[Johnny]

A Stanford professor walked into my shop and ask me a few questions. After I answered he chuckled and said, "You are as opinionated in real life as you are on your website."

Sums it up well.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

What do you mean?

A Euro e-bike limited to 250 W (nominal) motor and to 25 km/h is just a bike in the EU and UK (it has to be solely pedal operated). Exceeding any of these parameters (with the upper limit of 45 km/h and/or 4 kW) requires that the vehicle must undergo the type-approval procedure to be certified as a moped (this requires appropriate equipment on the e-bike as well). (The class name is L1e-B and such e-bike is dubbed "S-Pedelec" if this is pedal operated). While there are many 45 km/h S-Pedelecs, these typically are equipped with a 250 W (nominal) power motor. There might be one or two 500 W S-Pedelec models available but I haven't heard of any 4 kW one. The thing is even more interesting: the EU law doesn't require pedals on the L1e-B and says no word about the throttle; yet I have not heard about any S-Pedelec more powerful than 500 W (nominal) in the EU.

Hub motors appeal to some people and work on bikes. The above doesn't explain why nearly an entire industry would ignore it, despite it being readily available to manufacturers. I don't expect every restaurant to sell sushi, but it would be odd if none of them did.

I agree to that. For example, Copenhagen is full of hub-driven cargo e-bikes of generic type (often built locally); there are no dramatic hills in Denmark and people there travel over short distances but en masse. Still, Riese & Muller equip their cargo e-bikes with mid-drive motors. (And we could name R&M a big brand).

A typical, Free Town Christiania made Copenhagen cargo e-bike. Apart of cargo e-bikes, there are surprisingly little e-bikes in Copenhagen. I rented a traditional bike there twice myself; no need to ride an e-bike in CPH.

Besides, one of my e-bikes is a 250 W hub-drive one; it is really 250 W max in such case. I only use high PAS level for that e-bike to negotiate overpasses or very short climbs (up to 9%); I would need to be ghost-pedalling otherwise. That e-bike is good for long touring on the flat. I would not take that e-bike to the mountains though: I know it would not do there.

 

[AHicks]

Here is another viewpoint from a local bike shop owner that specializes in Ebike conversions... it's not my opinion so don't blame the messenger.

WHY WE DO NOT USE HUB MOTORS IN OUR CONVERSIONS
May 20, 2020 Electric Bikes - Island City Bikes, LLC

The electric bike hub motor
"This is a typical hub motor. Hub motors like these are found on every poorly made bike in the world. Hub motors are used on electric bikes for one reason and that is because they are very inexpensive. If one peruses eBay, Amazon, Aliexpress, or Alibaba, one would find thousands of electric bikes for sale at unbelievably low prices and they all have one thing in common...a hub motor. Many electric bike companies that sell their electric bikes online at incredibly low prices also have a hub motor on their bikes. One of the things that are always missing from their promotional material is the weight of their hub motor electric bikes. They omit the weight of the bike because they are very heavy due to the hub motor. At our shop, the number one complaint we hear about hub motor-driven electric bikes is weight and a lack of power.

It is not an exaggeration to say that millions of electric bikes are produced throughout the world with a hub motor. As a manufacturer of electric bikes, we are contacted weekly by Asian eBike companies asking us to buy these hub motor electric bikes with our logo on the frames. We politely refuse and tell them we will stay with the reliable, lightweight Bafang mid-drive. It has been said that I do not like hub drive electric bikes because I am a retailer of Bafang mid-drive motors. First, I am not a retailer of Bafang motors. In fact, at Island City Bikes we do not sell anything to the general public. Our specialty is converting standard bikes into electric bikes using the best motor on the market and that happens to be the Bafang mid-drive. We warranty the Bafang motor for one year...out of our own pocket. That is how confident we are in the reliability of the Bafang motor.

Are all hub motors bad? No, there is a wide spectrum of electric bike hub motors ranging from terrible to excellent. Some hub motors are small, lightweight, and of high quality. However these motors are very limited in power, torque, and speed, and they can be triple the price of a Bafang mid-drive. There are some riders who want to ride an electric bike but do not want to be seen riding an electric bike. That is the market the small hub motor dealer is looking to reach. Then there are the large high powered electric hub motors. These motors can go up to 3000 watts. Again, they are very, very heavy motors.

Bikes with hub motors
We do not build with hub motors as there are too many negatives and too few positives when it comes to an electric hub motor. Nearly everyone I know in the industry that sells electric bike motors do not sell hub motors. The reason they state is that the quality is so poor they have too many people asking for refunds. Hub motors are made by the millions and are used on more electric bikes throughout the world than any other type of motor. They are ubiquitous because they are inexpensive.

Here are the negatives of the hub motor:

1. Shipping is expensive as you have to ship an entire wheel. Or, you can order only the motor and have it laced into a rim when it arrives. However, that is expensive.

2. A front hub motor is dangerous. The motor can pull free of the dropouts on the front fork. In addition, most accidents that occur on a hub driven bike are those where the hub motor is on the front. Being "pulled" by an electric motor is not very natural.

3. Hub motors are heavy...very heavy. Some electric bikes with hub motors weigh up to 70 pounds. There are some hub motors that are light but they are only 250 watts which is not enough power for climbing hills or carrying cargo. In my opinion, 250-350 watt is just too small of a motor for an electric bike.

4. Many (most) bike shops will not work on a bike with a hub motor. By work on I mean no work at all, not ever repair a flat tire. The reason for this is the bikes are too heavy. A bike shop repair stand clamp is 5 feet off the ground. They would have to lift a 60-pound bike 5 feet to get it on the stand. Also, to repair a flat the whole hub motor has to be removed. These motors are bolted to the bike. A bike shop could easily charge $100 to repair a flat on a bike with a hub motor and be within their right to do so.

5. A rider cannot repair a flat while out on the road. If a rider has a flat on the wheel with the hub motor the likelihood they can repair it on the road is pretty much zero. You would have to call for a truck or van to come to retrieve the bike and then you would have to find a bike shop to repair the flat.

It is a many step process to remove a hub motor in order to fix a flat. First, you have to lift the bike off the ground or turn it upside down. That is impossible for most riders due to the weight of the bike. You have to carry wrenches as the wheel is bolted to the frame. You have to disconnect the cable from the motor to the battery. You have to muscle the bike out of the dropouts. Then you remove the tube and insert a new tube and get the wheel back on the bike. The axle of a drop-out motor has to line up with the dropouts or it will not go in. Once the wheel is in place, the power cables connected, the chain back on, and the bike righted then it is finished. Unless the tube is pinched and in that case the tire will deflate and you will have to go through the entire process again.

6. Bikes with hub motors are so heavy they cannot be carried on standard bike racks for cars.

7. Hub motors are typically sealed and cannot be repaired.

8. Hub motors make it impossible to adjust the disk brake pads because the motor blocks access. Disk brake pad adjustment on a bike with a mid-drive motor is a 5-minute job. That same task on a hub motorbike takes an hour....if you can find a bike shop willing to do the adjustment.

Is there anything good to say about hub motors?

A Stanford professor walked into my shop and ask me a few questions. After I answered he chuckled and said, "You are as opinionated in real life as you are on your website." I said, "I hope that is a good thing." He said of course it was as an opinion based on facts is different than an opinion based on hunches, feelings, or intuition. I see motors of all types come into the shop and we convert bikes to electric seven days a week...I know what motors underperform, fail, overheat, and are poorly constructed. To this day I have yet to meet a single person who did not regret purchasing a hub motor-driven electric bike after one-year ownership. In conclusion, I have heard the saying going around the forums that, "Hub driven electric bikes are for those who cannot afford a mid-drive." The Bafang mid-drive does cost a bit more than a hub drive but it will provide years of trouble free performance."

So much misinformation I'm not going to dignify it with much, other than it's pretty clear to me it was written quite a while ago. That, or the writer needs to get out more.

 

[Dewey]

Are there any production e-bikes with G/MAC motors?

Hilleater Galiano Phaserunner from BC, Canada https://hilleater.ca/hilleater-galiano-phaserunner-se-52v/

 

[Gordon71]

I guess I'm sort of curious how it was determined that the brands listed in the first post sell more Ebikes than other brands?

 

[Asher]

So much misinformation I'm not going to dignify it with much, other than it's pretty clear to me it was written quite a while ago. That, or the writer needs to get out more.

That article posted is not even on the internet (any longer?) and the alleged author has a far more moderate position on their website now:

Last week I called our mechanics and staff to a meeting and said we will begin building some of our bikes using high quality hub motors. That raised a few eyebrows among the mechanics. We discussed the fact that a hub motor will allow us to build a safer bike for elderly riders, carbon framed bikes, tricycles for the elderly, and those riders who have no intention of climbing hills.

As we move on into the future, we must be careful we do not fall into old ways of thinking that have been proven disastrous for so many. There are very few things in life that are “either/or.” The Bafang mid drive motor may be the best motor in the world but it will never be the best motor for every bike, every rider, and every riding condition. It is our job to look at a bike being brought to us for conversion and say…this motor is the best motor for this bike.

https://islandcitybikes.com/f/mid-d...wrong-question?blogcategory=lithium+batteries (Note that I posted a link and flatsix didn't.)

Pretty misleading post. I guess I shouldn't be surprised given I already had that poster on ignore lol.

I guess I'm sort of curious how it was determined that the brands listed in the first post sell more Ebikes than other brands?

I was referencing their stature in the bike world generally, across the globe but especially in Europe and North America.

 

[fooferdoggie]

So much misinformation I'm not going to dignify it with much, other than it's pretty clear to me it was written quite a while ago. That, or the writer needs to get out more.

we hear the same things about mid drives. most of the info on both is out of date.

 

[Asher]

Also, that ebike shop owner heaps praise on the Bafang Bbs02 for its weight, eight lbs, and the GMAC motor is the same weight, 3.8 kg

Bafang: https://islandcitybikes.com/f/the-perfect-electric-bike?blogcategory=lithium+batteries
GMAC: https://ebikes.ca/getting-started/hub-motor-options.html

 

[Dewey]

Also, that ebike shop owner heaps praise on the Bafang Bbs02 for its weight, eight lbs, and the GMAC motor is the same weight, 3.8 kg

Bafang: https://islandcitybikes.com/f/the-perfect-electric-bike?blogcategory=lithium+batteries
GMAC: https://ebikes.ca/getting-started/hub-motor-options.html

The GMAC is a neat concept: a geared hub motor without a clutch permitting downhill regenerative braking to recharge the battery a little but mostly for extra braking assistance, the Endless Sphere thread discussing the engineering involved in developing the integrated splined torque arm makes for fascinating reading, I was intrigued to read the design requires a trickle feed of power on all the time to overcome the braking inertia from the rotor magnets/copper windings. You wouldn't want to ride the bike with no power, but the reduced wear on brake pads and rotors is a real benefit, and the regen is cool ebike tech.

 

[FlatSix911]

That article posted is not even on the internet (any longer?) and the alleged author has a far more moderate position on their website now:
Mid Drive vs Hub motor? Why this is the wrong question (islandcitybikes.com)

"Last week I called our mechanics and staff to a meeting and said we will begin building some of our bikes using high quality hub motors. That raised a few eyebrows among the mechanics.
We discussed the fact that a hub motor will allow us to build a safer bike for elderly riders, carbon framed bikes, tricycles for the elderly, and those riders who have no intention of climbing hills."

 

[AHicks]

This comment ignores the fact there are 1000w gear driven hub motors available now. Mine will climb anything paved with my 300lb butt on board - easily - using no more than PAS 3.

 

[EMGX]

This comment ignores the fact there are 1000w gear driven hub motors available now. Mine will climb anything paved with my 300lb butt on board - easily - using no more than PAS 3.

Can you link what motor you are using? Is it 1000w nominal or peak? I'm currently installing a 48v 500w geared rear hub motor on an old mountain bike to test it prior to installing it on a tandem so I can ride with my wife on routes with long as well as steep hills. She isn't able to contribute much pedal power anymore. The motor came with a 22a controller so I assume it should have ~1000w peak, calculated anyway.

PS
I'm finding installation of the rear hub motor more of a job than the Tongsheng mid drive that I installed on her Dahon Briza, more niggles to deal with than a simple mid drive installation, unfortunately a mid drive wouldn't work on the tandem or else I would have gone with a Tongsheng again. Plus a flat tire would be an ordeal to deal with the heavy, wired, nutted-on hub motor whereas fixing a flat with a mid drive is simple and easy. If I like the rear hub motor I might buy a solid tire for it to avoid having to deal with a flat.