When does an electric bike become an electric motorcycle?

[stevenast]

I'm really having trouble understanding how the lawmakers intend to restrict the use of the throttle from a technical perspective. What prevents a drive manufacturer from moving the throttle functionality to the pedals?

To illustrate that, let's imagine that we're a group of engineers and we introduce a new PAS mode called Hyper Turbo.

Here's how it might work:

- You start off by pedaling until you reach a desired cruising speed, and then you hit the Hyper Turbo button.
- Once Hyper Turbo is engaged, the bike maintains its speed as long as you keep on providing one pedal stroke stroke every 10 seconds.
- Each pedal stroke only requires 5 watts of input from the rider (or any other value he/she wishes). Anything else that's needed to maintain cruising speed will be provided by the drive.
- If you brake or stop pedaling for 10 seconds, Hyper Turbo will disengage.
- If you start up after a red light, Hyper Turbo can optionally and automatically re-engage to its previous value once a pre-determined speed has been reached.

So basically you've (more or less) provided the same type of functionality as a throttle, but as you're still required to apply pressure with your feet it falls into the category of a pedal assist.

What finer details am I missing here?

To answer your question: what you're missing is that subverting the spirit (or letter) of the law leads to even stricter legislation, and also no reputable company is going to go around the regulations like that.

My opinion is that the electric bike community should be thinking about what millions of pedestrians will be willing to tolerate on the paths they use and pay taxes to build and maintain.

Those same millions have needs and desires that will be addressed by legislators that they elect. They will regulate the use of electric bikes on paths ...and the voice of e-bike riders will be given the weight that it deserves in their decisions.

 

[stevenast]

Subverting the law... According to whose criteria? Yours?

It's a pedal assist mode, so it seems perfectly legitimate to me. There are people out there who have disabilities. They should be allowed to get proper assistance. We can't always look at a problem and only consider our own personal interests. I don't need a throttle mode at all, but others might need "more assistance".

I hear you. Disabilities are an issue, as are older riders. What do you think about the idea of a bicycle handicap plate? Just brainstorming...

 

[stevenast]

I'm really having trouble understanding how the lawmakers intend to restrict the use of the throttle from a technical perspective. What prevents a drive manufacturer from moving the throttle functionality to the pedals?

To illustrate that, let's imagine that we're a group of engineers and we introduce a new PAS mode called Hyper Turbo.

Here's how it might work:

- You start off by pedaling until you reach a desired cruising speed, and then you hit the Hyper Turbo button.
- Once Hyper Turbo is engaged, the bike maintains its speed as long as you keep on providing one pedal stroke stroke every 10 seconds.
- Each pedal stroke only requires 5 watts of input from the rider (or any other value he/she wishes). Anything else that's needed to maintain cruising speed will be provided by the drive.
- If you brake or stop pedaling for 10 seconds, Hyper Turbo will disengage.
- If you start up after a red light, Hyper Turbo can optionally and automatically re-engage to its previous value once a pre-determined speed has been reached.

So basically you've (more or less) provided the same type of functionality as a throttle, but as you're still required to apply pressure with your feet it falls into the category of a pedal assist.

What finer details am I missing here?

I am probably missing your intent here...

 

[Paul E.]

What finer details am I missing here?

Only that apparently making a bike go faster by moving your thumb or wrist hurts some peoples' feelings a lot more than doing it by moving your foot... and if it hurts someone's feelings, it must be outlawed even if it doesn't physically hurt anyone.

 

[DWEBiker]

Ifi didnt have a throttle i couldnt ride a bike period. I have a heart condition so i have to take it real slow and easy. I am glad Minnesota has no silly throttle laws , only that they cut out at 20 mph.

 

[stevenast]

We can't argue ebikes based up some PC notion of losing weight or disability.

I disagree to this extent - people with disabilities do need their rights protected.

 

[stevenast]

Ifi didnt have a throttle i couldnt ride a bike period. I have a heart condition so i have to take it real slow and easy. I am glad Minnesota has no silly throttle laws , only that they cut out at 20 mph.

Absolutely, lawmakers do have to take the needs of disabled and older riders into consideration.

Edit: ...and I totally agree with your 20 mile per hour assessment, no e-bike needs to be able go faster than that with assist on a bike path.

 

[Bike_On]

I disagree to this extent - people with disabilities do need their rights protected.

Just to clarify, the context was promoting ebikes to make them socially acceptable to the mainstream mindset. We do and should support the use for the physically disadvantaged, but the PC argument is not the PRIMARY/MAIN reason to let ebikes on bike paths, with an agreed upon set of limits set my local/state citizens.

Note: I am really trying to not post again...for a while....and just read other's inputs....if only Steve would do the same and stop tying to get in the last word! lol.

 

[Paul E.]

Edit: ...and I totally agree with your 20 mile per hour assessment, no e-bike needs to be able go faster than that with assist on a bike path.

No bicycle should be allowed to go faster than that with or without assist on a bike path. Just as motorless bicycles are able and allowed to go faster than that on the road, so should e-bikes be.

 

[DWEBiker]

No bicycle should be allowed to go faster than that with or without assist on a bike path. Just as motorless bicycles are able and allowed to go faster than that on the road, so should e-bikes be.

You want to go out on the road with cars on an ebike at 30 -40 mph? Good luck , when you crash and burn its gonna be bad. I am too old for that lol

 

[Paul E.]

You want to go out on the road with cars on an ebike at 30 -40 mph?

Nope, just occasionally about 25 mph. But if lycras are allowed to go out on the road with cars at 30 -40 mph, so should ebikes be. I never really got the whole "if I personally don't care for it, it should be illegal" thing. I'm more into "logic, consistency and fairness" type stuff.

 

[George S.]

This is a great article on the subject of the regulations:

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/opin...n-over-electric-bike-regulations#.VV3h2PlVhBd

One of the keys in deciding whether it is a 'motor vehicle' (motorcycle) is whether it is designed to travel in the traffic stream. The faster you go, the more you are part of traffic.

The 20 mph unassisted speed figures in almost all the regulations. It's going to be tough to have a 'bike' that goes faster than 20 unassisted. But having a pedal assist that provides 10x what the rider provides is similar to someone just using a throttle.

The war against throttles, and the desire to go Euro and ban them, doesn't really makes sense if they are going at bike speeds. The purists may hate the idea, but most people get more exercise on an ebike than a regular bike, and a throttle is completely effective for people who do pedal.

I'm not sure they shouldn't have a Light Electric Cycle category, but it would be tough to fix the maximum speed. Once you get out in traffic, you want to be able to keep up with traffic, and a motorcycle makes a lot more sense than any bike. I'm pretty happy with 20 mph, if they don't make me register or insure.

 

[J.R.]

A factor that seems lost with so many of these conversations is the rider. Not the bike, the rider of an ebike. Just from spending time here on EBR, most of the active members are over the age of 40 and many have physical problems ranging from heart, lung, spine, etc... ADA (American Disability Act) requires access of bike paths to disabled persons of any age. You don't have to be declared disabled by the government, you are declared disabled by your doctor. Bike paths are open to disabled persons with their ebike. Your ebike with or without throttle.

How many handicapped license plates and placards do you see in parking lots with the aging American population? And it's growing everyday! Never will ebikes be removed from bike-paths and lanes, never! Never will throttles be removed from the full population of ebikers. Ebikes are on the verge of exploding in the U.S. and how long before we see them everywhere? Two years?

There will be speed limits posted and there may be approved models for handicapped persons on bike paths, but with the voting block and disposable income power of America's aging population; ebikes with throttles on bike paths are here to stay. It's only a matter of time before some disability activist group sues Accell Group, or some industry group for denying them access to transport by not offering a throttle.

Stick with current CPSC regulations and keep it as simple as possible, for as long as possible. We will all long for the good old days and.......
"These are the good old days! "Carly Simon
"Get your motor runnin' Head out on the highway!" Steppenwolf
"Baby we were born to run!" Bruce Springsteen
"Get on your bikes and ride!" Queen

Peace

 

[Brambor]

Excellent Point

 

[Bike_On]

Nice one JR.

 

[George S.]

This ebike is being sold as going 28mph with a throttle, and the video is on a bike path. He's not pedaling much. People are going to push things. They'll probably 'explode' in California and they will have to solve the local problems. I doubt they will explode here, so it's on a ten year time delay.

 

[stevenast]

You don't have to be declared disabled by the government, you are declared disabled by your doctor. Bike paths are open to disabled persons with their ebike. Your ebike with or without throttle.

How many handicapped license plates and placards do you see in parking lots with the aging American population? And it's growing everyday! Never will ebikes be removed from bike-paths and lanes, never!

In the UK, rules for mobility scooters (and wheelchairs are:
Class 1 - manual
Class 2 - powered up to 4 mph
Class 3 - powered up to 8 mph (road capable)

https://www.gov.uk/rules-powered-wh...ed-wheelchairs-and-mobility-scooters-36-to-37

You are correct that people with disabilities have a right to access paths. My point is that obviously the government has a right to regulate how fast their conveyances can travel under power assist.

Same with e-bikes.

 

[J.R.]

In the UK, rules for mobility scooters (and wheelchairs are:
Class 1 - manual
Class 2 - powered up to 4 mph
Class 3 - powered up to 8 mph (road capable)

https://www.gov.uk/rules-powered-wh...ed-wheelchairs-and-mobility-scooters-36-to-37

You are correct that people with disabilities have a right to access paths. My point is that obviously the government has a right to regulate how fast their conveyances can travel under power assist.

Same with e-bikes.

You see that's what happens when you pull part of a thought out to respond to it. That's disingenuous. Note the sentence that starts: There will be speed limits. I'll repost and add emphasis to the section that you missed. Your "point" about what the government has a right to do was included in my post. A post that for some reason you disagree with but agree with.

A factor that seems lost with so many of these conversations is the rider. Not the bike, the rider of an ebike. Just from spending time here on EBR, most of the active members are over the age of 40 and many have physical problems ranging from heart, lung, spine, etc... ADA (American Disability Act) requires access of bike paths to disabled persons of any age. You don't have to be declared disabled by the government, you are declared disabled by your doctor. Bike paths are open to disabled persons with their ebike. Your ebike with or without throttle.

How many handicapped license plates and placards do you see in parking lots with the aging American population? And it's growing everyday! Never will ebikes be removed from bike-paths and lanes, never! Never will throttles be removed from the full population of ebikers. Ebikes are on the verge of exploding in the U.S. and how long before we see them everywhere? Two years?

There will be speed limits posted and there may be approved models for handicapped persons on bike paths, but with the voting block and disposable income power of America's aging population; ebikes with throttles on bike paths are here to stay. It's only a matter of time before some disability activist group sues Accell Group, or some industry group for denying them access to transport by not offering a throttle.

Stick with current CPSC regulations and keep it as simple as possible, for as long as possible. We will all long for the good old days and.......
"These are the good old days! "Carly Simon
"Get your motor runnin' Head out on the highway!" Steppenwolf
"Baby we were born to run!" Bruce Springsteen
"Get on your bikes and ride!" Queen

Peace

 

[stevenast]

It's only a matter of time before some disability activist group sues Accell Group, or some industry group for denying them access to transport by not offering a throttle.

I know you are kidding about the above...

The song lyrics are nice. Good touch.

"come on people now
smile on your brother
everybody get together
try to love one another right now"

 

[katie6963]

I have owned my Excursion for hours so my opinion is fresh and may have value simply because it comes from a delightfully dazed and confused old lady. I didn't even know there was such a thing as an ebike until a few weeks ago.
My Energie Excursion IS a motorcycle and I love it and the very idea that it is allowed on bike paths surprised me and fills me with joy. The folks at Energie can testify to my statement that it took about three seconds of pedaling without power to turn me into a demented child reliving her first moments on a borrowed 1962 Schwin Stingray. Next Arron showed me how to use the throttle and I was re-living my shiny new 1966 50cc Harley Davidson. The ebike is the best of both worlds.
I am grateful to everyone here who is working to make it both possible and safe for me to continue to ride the protected paths and trails away from exhaust fumes and noise. It hurts really bad when cars hit me. I remember.
Keep me in mind as you all work together to shape the future of ebikes.
Thank you, Katie