stevenast
Well-Known Member
I respectfully disagree. Ask for reasonable when you're in a tiny, tiny e-bike minority. The method you suggest indicates some sort of negotiating leverage, which we do not have...
When does an electric bike become an electric motorcycle?
- Thread starter Bike_On
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I respectfully disagree. Ask for reasonable when you're in a tiny, tiny e-bike minority. The method you suggest indicates some sort of negotiating leverage, which we do not have...
Bike_On
Well-Known Member
Good common sense Joe. The current national law does just that, under 20mph and 750W. That is generous for a bike-like-use ebike. The REALITY is people want and NEED more power/speed, and we can do so safely. Clearly, there needs to be two classes for street ebikes.
stevenast
Well-Known Member
It's not that simple. That suggestion is based on the concept of each rider taking responsibility for everyone else's safety.
The whole purpose of regulation is because not all users are that responsible.
J.R.
Well-Known Member
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- Piedmont Highlands
@George S. has been right all along....
Keep the CPSC regs for federal law. K.I.S.S. (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
States and communities can add additional regulations as they feel the need. These local laws can be adjusted as the community wants. If Cali wants tighter laws, so be it. If NY doesn't want food delivery by ebike, ok. If PA wants 25mph limit instead of 28, I know where to go to change it. The law for ebikes in PA is quirky, so I've been a member of an organization that helped to get ebikes legalized here.
I'm not in favor of passing laws that would turn law abiding, tax paying citizens into law breakers. That's what would happen to many people should a law be passed to make ebike throttles illegal. I've been part of political change in two states I've called home and have been a part of both success and failure, but I've been a part of it.
Keep the CPSC regs for federal law. K.I.S.S. (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
States and communities can add additional regulations as they feel the need. These local laws can be adjusted as the community wants. If Cali wants tighter laws, so be it. If NY doesn't want food delivery by ebike, ok. If PA wants 25mph limit instead of 28, I know where to go to change it. The law for ebikes in PA is quirky, so I've been a member of an organization that helped to get ebikes legalized here.
I'm not in favor of passing laws that would turn law abiding, tax paying citizens into law breakers. That's what would happen to many people should a law be passed to make ebike throttles illegal. I've been part of political change in two states I've called home and have been a part of both success and failure, but I've been a part of it.
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Bike_On
Well-Known Member
As a citizen, I am negotiating for equal access based upon safe, new, technology. You are assuming ebikes do not deserve access for some reason. We are bicycles with assist. Weather i'm 70 with week knees, or 29 and fit, it doesn't matter. We can't argue ebikes based up some PC notion of losing weight or disability. It is new technology, improved transportation, good recreation, a new market. Argue from your strengths and rights, as well as from your perceived limits or expected liabilities.
Bike_On
Well-Known Member
Being on a bike path implies user responsibility... all bikes have that already. Thus, lycra dudes can cruise 20+mph in vacant areas, but need to slow down in congested areas. Will there be accidents? Of course, they already happen.
Regulate the application locally. Don't regulate the technology nationally. Do you get it? Let the local community dictate speed, lights, bells, power limits, or no use of all for any bikes. They already do... don't make it harder for ebike riders and new business by eliminating options thru regulation before it can find its equilibrium on the trails.
stevenast
Well-Known Member
Agreed on all the above!
I am not assuming. Simple fact: e-bikes do not "deserve" access to paths. The laws will determine what access is allowed. Here in Colorado, no form of assist is allowed on paths under current law.
Bike_On
Well-Known Member
Well, that pretty much sums it up for you, Steve. The old saying, "Laws were made to be broken," is the rogue view of what is going on now. Laws were also made to be obeyed (yours and hopefully most peoples view), but they were also made to be changed when warranted. We make our laws, we change our laws. Those who are roller bladers, joggers, moms pushing strollers do surely expect and demand bike rider control, and thus restrictive laws. I pay taxes and am a law abiding citizen, and if the state builds a public path, away from traffic, I feel I DESERVE some level of access, whether walk, bike, ebike, other. For now, the majority may disallow or disfavor ebikes on several fronts. That doesn't make it right.
Bike_On
Well-Known Member
Nice perspective and overview! Just don't equate an attempt to "stretch a limit" to automatic unsafe and illegal behavior. New technology will demand new limits/rules.
I'll support your point with this hypothetical. Road bikers who speed on bike paths increase risk to slower speed users. So by allowing ebikes, there will be more people riding at road biker speeds and thus increasing the risk of a pedestrian accident, or self accident. So in order to reduce accident risk, or at least maintain where it is, we must:
1. enforce speed limits (fairly impractical, except in congested urban stretches)
2. Prohibit the technology on the paths. (thus economically killing advancements and options) Your option.
3. Educate communities to use the path together and expect responsible use from all.
What should we do?
stevenast
Well-Known Member
That is a well thought-out statement of the dilemma, or should I say issue.
You are correct, #1 is rarely going to happen; the police have many other things to occupy their time.
I agree #2 is not ideal. However I am not for banning all e-bike use on the path, (even though the state of Colorado is lol).
#3 sounds good, but is more of a supplement to regulations than a replacement for them. It's the "why can't we all get along?" question. The answer is: because not everybody is responsible.
Are there other alternatives?
I live off a 44 mile trail , some parts busy some not. I also love going the longest trails I can find for vacation (MINN is in my future). There is 100 mile trail form Atlanta to Alabama I have been on 1/2(passed maybe 4 people in 1/2 day). I can ride to Pittsburgh from from Va, not paved but along a old canal(C&O), I am about 60 w/knees of a 80 year old,. I have a Stromer that sometimes does 28. I do not want want to ride on the street w/big vehicles on the same surface(no curb or step up) Paths are almost it for me. I get passed by the fast bikers, it all speed oriented and saying that ebike is not allowed for any reason that doesn't apply to a regular bike just doesnt make sense. Why do we have cars that can go faster than 85 or what ever the highest speed limit is. It does not make sense either but it is done. What about a law that bike must weigh at least 25 no 30 b or 50 lbs so the it cant be as fast as those ultra light bikes go? They cost as much or more, they are ridden at high speed (if the rider wants and is capable). As far as lights and bells, if you are a path walking, riding or anything and it is even starting to get dark why don't you have illumination at least to be seen if not enough to help you see? that is more critical to me than speed .
Take responsibility for your actions, behave and don't let unneeded laws govern you life
If a regular bike is allowed on the trail then anything that "looks and runs like one" should be also in my opinion.
Take responsibility for your actions, behave and don't let unneeded laws govern you life
If a regular bike is allowed on the trail then anything that "looks and runs like one" should be also in my opinion.
stevenast
Well-Known Member
...ay, there's the rub...
________
Does something that looks and runs like a bike have:
- a battery pack?
- an electric motor?
- ability to go uphill without pedaling?
- ability to go 28 mph without pedaling?
- ability to go 28 mph with pedal assist?
- any kind of non-human power?
- a bike frame and a small gasoline engine?
- an electric motor, limited to 20 mph and no pedals?
- two wheels and 750cc twin motor (just thrown in for fun, not serious)
_______
Where to draw the line is the dilemma.
What, so chimps and bears riding bikes would be illegal now? #$*!@ speciest...
Bike_On
Well-Known Member
Arg, Steve, you make it soooo difficult on yourself to be taken seriously. I'll get some mileage out of this, but let's recall your premise:
Simple fact: e-bikes do not "deserve" access to paths.
Yes, rather than go the easy way, ie. ban everyone except those who ride a bike like me route, (you're welcome), we take a politically active and responsible route to educate, inform, advocate, justify , etc, being a citizen, to OPEN up the paths to fuller and better usage, and less cars on the road. This is not a "Can't we just all get along" solution. It will involve conflict.
If Americans don't like the information presented, then communities get to vote and pass laws.
Steve, your insistent solution, ie Larry P's Manifesto, is close to ok. Just include throttles up to 28mph. Can you choke that one down, or must you insist on privilege status for the Bosch, low power systems?
In addition, I think half the issue is about OFF ROAD access and not the speed in bike lanes and throttles. The traditional mtn bikers are less accepting and territorial about their paths vs roadies. I guess more roads to ride on and commuting purposes is a better sell.
Someone spoke well earlier with the point, "Don't make illegal what is now legal."
Bike_On
Well-Known Member
I think I'm about done with this thread. I've said my piece, several times now... Steve continues to dodge the points and justify his opinion that 20-30mph ebikes are basically motorcycles that should only be on roads and regulated as such. They don't deserve tax dollar bike paths. I respect the thought that some think a moped class is just too fast for certain circumstances, and that is true. But these bikes are MUCH, MUCH< closer to regular bike performance than a 4-5hp motorcycle. Yes, we need to learn to get along on the bike trails.
JRA
Well-Known Member
Ann M.
Well-Known Member
Actually @JRA you have left out the most contentious group of so called 'ebikes' the same ones you say have 1000 watt to 4000 watt motors; well those are not going just 30mph...more like 50mph, in particular after market kits. If it is torque that is needed for pulling a work load or do super steep hills that would be understandable; however, let's be honest--none of the manufacturers that provide motor kits over 1000 watts limits them to 30mph. yet most are installed on bike type frames not designed to handle that type of stress. So bike constructs like that really do not belong on a pedestrian/bike lane or trail when the legal definition in the US limits the top speed without pedaling to 20mph. The rational is to provide safe interactions between regular bikes, pedestrians and ebikes sharing a common trail. If you are going over 30mph get on the STREET! Why create an issue when there doesn't need to be one. Protect the rights of all cyclists. Personally, if you want your modified standard bike, which does not meet legal DOT safety standards, to do 50mph that is going to be your safety issue; but don't impose that risk on others who want a safe space to travel where they don't having to interact with riders/drivers doing car type speeds.
JRA
Well-Known Member
Ann, just as there are in all types of motorized machines you will get the backyard guys hopping things up ala "more power" and the manufacturers that sell into every single one of those markets. In the instance of e bikes however it seems like the horse has come before the cart so to speak. Although I followed a forum that shall remain namelESs for a number of years I never did more than shake my head at the shenanigans that went on there realizing that preaching to that particular choir was pointlESs and very little of what is commented on is within the sphere of legal e bikes.
MoPed regulations come under the auspices of the DOT and their regulations are plainly stated online as Federal Law and as interpreted state by state and are the law. If someone chooses to ignore those laws they are as you say taking issues with their personal safety as well as others and are liable. However I do envision a PedMo (as a friend of mine calls it and has copy righted the name) that meets the rules and regs but remains pedal able as well. I would not expect to ride one in any bike lane or path doing 30 mph but in reality who needs to go full blast all the time if they have some common sense? Not everyone is out to break the law and can act responsibly and they shouldn't be lumped in with those that do in the e bike world just as they don't in the rest of the motorized world like cars for instance. That is the reason I don't agree with the BPSD basically disallowing throttles. It is not the throttle that is the problem it is the operator that misuses it.
As a for instance 6 years ago I had a legal gas motorized bicycle that I used to get around on in WA. state. 49cc 4 stroke and 30 mph limit. It was setup so that I would pedal, motor or pedmo. For a big bike it actually pedaled quite well and I had it set up so that I could pedal with resistance even at the top end. By far it was the fastest and safest way I ever found for getting around the town of 75,000 people I was living in at the time. I used it for 2 years there without so much as a bad word said and many good ones about it. At the time I thought everyone should have something like it but it didn't go as planned. I ended up moving to a smaller town that an e bike worked better for my needs but I still have the gas bike in my storage unit and may just pull that thing out and fire it up now that I am thinking about it. Anyway here is a video that I took with it back then:
and all in a totally legal capacity.
I guess it raises the question of why gas "motorized" bicycles are allowed the extra 10 mph that e bikes are seeking and always have yet still remain classified as bicycles and under the auspice of the CPSC? But that is probably another whole discussion to be addressed.
MoPed regulations come under the auspices of the DOT and their regulations are plainly stated online as Federal Law and as interpreted state by state and are the law. If someone chooses to ignore those laws they are as you say taking issues with their personal safety as well as others and are liable. However I do envision a PedMo (as a friend of mine calls it and has copy righted the name) that meets the rules and regs but remains pedal able as well. I would not expect to ride one in any bike lane or path doing 30 mph but in reality who needs to go full blast all the time if they have some common sense? Not everyone is out to break the law and can act responsibly and they shouldn't be lumped in with those that do in the e bike world just as they don't in the rest of the motorized world like cars for instance. That is the reason I don't agree with the BPSD basically disallowing throttles. It is not the throttle that is the problem it is the operator that misuses it.
As a for instance 6 years ago I had a legal gas motorized bicycle that I used to get around on in WA. state. 49cc 4 stroke and 30 mph limit. It was setup so that I would pedal, motor or pedmo. For a big bike it actually pedaled quite well and I had it set up so that I could pedal with resistance even at the top end. By far it was the fastest and safest way I ever found for getting around the town of 75,000 people I was living in at the time. I used it for 2 years there without so much as a bad word said and many good ones about it. At the time I thought everyone should have something like it but it didn't go as planned. I ended up moving to a smaller town that an e bike worked better for my needs but I still have the gas bike in my storage unit and may just pull that thing out and fire it up now that I am thinking about it. Anyway here is a video that I took with it back then:
I guess it raises the question of why gas "motorized" bicycles are allowed the extra 10 mph that e bikes are seeking and always have yet still remain classified as bicycles and under the auspice of the CPSC? But that is probably another whole discussion to be addressed.
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