When does an electric bike become an electric motorcycle?

[stevenast]

the throttle option is being treated as the inferior stepchild

Okay here's an open mind, I agree with you on that!

I really do have an open mind here, do you?

 

[stevenast]

The consumer product regulations have nothing to do with laws made in individual states or municipalities regarding the use of those products.

Apples = CPSC e-bike definitions. Federal agency.

Oranges = Proposed CA law defining e-bike classes. State (and potentially local) laws.

one of these things is not like the other...

 

[JRA]

Getting back on track.

E bike = 20mph with pedals. 750w/1000w peak. PAS or Throttle. Allowed on all bike designated terrain and must use pedal power only on motor vehicle excluded paths and trails.


E PedMo (Speed Pedelec) = 30mph with pedals. 1001w-4000w. Must look like a conventional bicycle and conform to DOT regulations and Federal Regulations already in place. Allowable on bike paths using pedal power only.


E Moto = Everything else.

 

[JoePah]

Seems reasonable. IMO ebikes need to stay around 20 mph and stay of sidewalks and bike trails. Any high powered ebikes need dot lights tires and a license plate.

 

[stevenast]

Speed Pedelec = 30mph ....Allowable on bike paths ....

...ebikes need to stay around 20 mph and stay off sidewalks and bike trails...

One idea per customer!

This is why the model legislation is a good idea. One uniform plan.

 

[Bike_On]

Prodeco and Pedego are anything but tiny. Insignificant as compared to Accell however in the global marketplace.

I am not biased against PAS. I think that if done right it makes a fine system but when done wrong it isn't. And unfortunately the done wrong stuff is at the lower end of the marketplace which seems to be the focus of the consumers at this time. As a current example how do you think that the Sondors bike, which is a single speed, and is making a big deal of offering PAS is going to work? Without a way to toggle through the different levels of assist such as you have on your Bosch system along with the multiple gear ratios you have on tap? In that instance they are way better off just sticking with a throttle don't you think?

And I am sorry but I don't see any apples to oranges in any of this. We are here discussing e bikes and a 20mph e bike is pretty much a 20mph e bike not matter how it gets there.

JRA,
We think alike, not against PAS, but am against the market discrimination. Pedego, Prodeco, Optibike, Stealth, Currie E3's, some Stromers, all have throttle systems or dual options.

BTW Steve, this thread is really about the How, Why and When an ebike should be labeled an e-motor cycle, and not specifically about the CA proposal, but it applies!

 

[Bike_On]

Seems reasonable. IMO ebikes need to stay around 20 mph and stay of sidewalks and bike trails. Any high powered ebikes need dot lights tires and a license plate.

No Sidewalks, yes, but not bike trails? naw. Road bikers on trails go over 20mph. I would AGREE with Stevo Nasty that the CA proposal would be a good rule here:
20mph power limited, class 1 or 2, pas or throttle on bike trails, subject to local restrictions.

Stevo thinks throttle advocated are self serving, limited in knowledge of public perception and part of a vast minority of self interested hobbyist. Wrong on all three.

I'll try to agree more, meaning the main stream public are clueless to the application of ebikes and their costs/limits. But that is not a reason to legislate them into an unjust market. Larry P's proposal, while done by committee, it was self crafted with Big Box given the ability to be self serving. Yes, "they are doing it for us". yada, yada.

It is good, just needs tweaked. JRA agreed with my suggestions:
2 ebike classes:
Class 1 : 20 mph limited, 1 hp, 1000W peak, PAS or throttle.
Class 2 : 30 mph limit, 1001-??W, PAS or throttle.

I GET IT that Bosch wants a sub class 1, PAS only, low power PAS , in order to get on mountain bike trails. Fine, make 3 classes.

The real rub is allowing throttles up to 28-30mph, and still be a bicycle with limited regulations, and not be a moped. Because Bosch, et 'al are PAS, they are trying to slide into MOPED territory and get themselves a pass, with this CA proposal, and throw the throttle guys under bus, calling them electric motorcycles, when then go the same speed and output the same power as their unit.

 

[Bike_On]

So why would anything under 30mph and 750W, with a throttle, be classified at motorcycle status, but a speed pedelec is a bicycle? That is what the CA legislation does.

I think the States will see through this and hopefully correct it.

 

[Paul E.]

So why would anything under 30mph and 750W, with a throttle, be classified at motorcycle status, but a speed pedelec is a bicycle? That is what the CA legislation does.

Because if I personally don't like something, it should be illegal. Duh!

 

[JoePah]

The problem with faster eBikes is that they enter the dreaded Moped Class... Much faster than bicycles and much slower than motor vehicles.. In short a nuisance to most people.

Keep the bikes on their original mission statement.. Supplemental power for those who cannot ride long distances or adequate speed on a human powered bike... With that mission in mind most people should understand the need for them.

 

[stevenast]

The problem with faster eBikes is that they enter the dreaded Moped Class... Much faster than bicycles and much slower than motor vehicles.. In short a nuisance to most people.

Keep the bikes on their original mission statement.. Supplemental power for those who cannot ride long distances or adequate speed on a human powered bike... With that mission in mind most people should understand the need for them.

Like and agree.

So, maybe the line should just be drawn at an adequate speed of 20mph. Any sort of assist over that = moped.

 

[DWEBiker]

Keep electric bikes slow 20 or less - one of the main reasons i bought one is i didnt need a license plate -- insurance ---motorcycle license. Because of health reasons i sold my Vulcan 750 , my Kymco 250 scooter and now im riding an electric bike soon!

 

[pxpaulx]

Like and agree.

So, maybe the line should just be drawn at an adequate speed of 20mph. Any sort of assist over that = moped.

I think that is taking it too far - I don't inherently disagree with the California legislation, except for the throttle distinction. I welcome the s-pedelec up to 28mph and only for certain uses (not going back to read again, but it was road and cycle lanes only right?). It is the fact that the guy who is introducing this legislation gets value added based on the bike he sells (s-pedelec) while also adding a level that detracts from his competitors (type 2 throttle only).

Why you wouldn't just go with the current fed definition (yes, we've been over it, a guide) and simply add the s-pedelec detail? It is clearly a targeted move to help sell their current inventory without having to change the bike and offer something the American market might lean towards (throttle) - granted I thought I would like throttle and didn't end up caring for it myself, but I still appreciate the bike I had (yes had, the neo xtrem is sold!) offered both throttle and PAS.

 

[stevenast]

I think that is taking it too far - I don't inherently disagree with the California legislation, except for the throttle distinction. I welcome the s-pedelec up to 28mph and only for certain uses (not going back to read again, but it was road and cycle lanes only right?). It is the fact that the guy who is introducing this legislation gets value added based on the bike he sells (s-pedelec) while also adding a level that detracts from his competitors (type 2 throttle only).

Why you wouldn't just go with the current fed definition (yes, we've been over it, a guide) and simply add the s-pedelec detail? It is clearly a targeted move to help sell their current inventory without having to change the bike and offer something the American market might lean towards (throttle) - granted I thought I would like throttle and didn't end up caring for it myself, but I still appreciate the bike I had (yes had, the neo xtrem is sold!) offered both throttle and PAS.

I always find myself taking the view of the consumer and end user, because that is all I am myself.

Therefore I am totally more about the negative impression that high-speed e-bikes will make on shared paths and don't really care who is building their business.

End users, you and me, will ultimately benefit from strong limits that mitigate any negative public perceptions. Because negative perceptions can be a slippery slope leading to outright bans.

 

[Paul E.]

End users, you and me, will ultimately benefit from strong limits that mitigate any negative public perceptions. Because negative perceptions can be a slippery slope leading to outright bans.

I'm still puzzled about why lycras are allowed to do 30 mph or faster on mixed bike/pedestrian paths without it leading to bans on motorless bikes? Explanations, anyone...?

 

[Bike_On]

Getting back on track.

E bike = 20mph with pedals. 750w/1000w peak. PAS or Throttle. Allowed on all bike designated terrain and must use pedal power only on motor vehicle excluded paths and trails.
View attachment 3027

E PedMo (Speed Pedelec) = 30mph with pedals. 1001w-4000w. Must look like a conventional bicycle and conform to DOT regulations and Federal Regulations already in place. Allowable on bike paths using pedal power only.
View attachment 3029

E Moto = Everything else.

View attachment 3030

JRA,

After seeing the pics in your post, I conclude that Throttle bikes sell better than PAS bikes because they have better marketing. So they need to change the laws to make them more accommodating. Here is another example of how throttles sell better...

 

[Bike_On]

Like and agree.

So, maybe the line should just be drawn at an adequate speed of 20mph. Any sort of assist over that = moped.

I'm actually ok with that Steve, so long as they make the speed pedelecs mopeds too, and keep the whole class STILL considered power assisted bicycles with limited restrictions.

Most state laws and the national law already recognize the issue of speed/power and are addressing the 20+ category.

That is why Larry P's presentation stinks. It takes care of pedelecs, but gives the throttle option the shaft. If that passes, it will segregate the community. Moreso, having a throttle option is SAFER IMO in many situations, when riding with traffic. It is nice to have BOTH.

Give the 20-30mph their own class, full road access, full bike lane access, limited bike path access (power restrict, lights, bell, turn off, etc).

 

[stevenast]

I'm still puzzled about why lycras are allowed to do 30 mph or faster on mixed bike/pedestrian paths without it leading to bans on motorless bikes? Explanations, anyone...?

Easy to explain:

1. Most municipalities legislate a maximum speed on mixed-use paths, even if it's not posted.

2. Therefore those who speed are not "allowed" to do so.

3. Irresponsible use can lead to bans for conventional bicycles as well.

 

[Bike_On]

I always find myself taking the view of the consumer and end user, because that is all I am myself.

Therefore I am totally more about the negative impression that high-speed e-bikes will make on shared paths and don't really care who is building their business.

End users, you and me, will ultimately benefit from strong limits that mitigate any negative public perceptions. Because negative perceptions can be a slippery slope leading to outright bans.

I respectfully disagree. Cowering back in the shadows, trying to stay unnoticed is shortly going to go away. Cyclist have to work together and present evidence and advocate rationally and respectfully with lawmakers. The acceptance of the ebike class has not yet happened. It will be a fight, just like any other change.

Yes, we should use common sense and don't doom ourselves. But retreating to a sub-20 PAS class as the only real bike-like class and therefore favored (I'm reading between the lines here) is very weak and limited. Ask for more, compromise with less.

PS. I say that as an end-user too. Mopeds on the streets and paths can exist just fine...with some time adjustments.

 

[Bike_On]

Easy to explain:

1. Most municipalities legislate a maximum speed on mixed-use paths, even if it's not posted.

2. Therefore those who speed are not "allowed" to do so.

3. Irresponsible use can lead to bans for conventional bicycles as well.

4. Therefore, ALL ebike classes should be allowed on bike paths and be expected to obey the law.