What is a fair way to compare an Ebike to a conventional bike? An eBike for an Amateur Cyclist.

[BikeMike]

Nobody ever rides with me as I'm too slow. 9 mph with no wind. I ride cruiser posture, with a lot of drag. As I said, I'm not interested in flexing the neck. The wheelman club whizzes right by me without stopping at stop signs or lights, either. Did my fastest of summer last Tuesday 3.5 hours 30 miles, 5 mph unfavorable quarter wind. No load and downhill coming home.
I ride 55 psi (max for 2.1" tires) and squeeze test before leaving every time. Rim hits sidewalk/potholes with groceries if pressure it not up in the back. Had a brake disk drag one time after changing a tube, detectable with temperature check after 10 miles. Adjusted it. First bike with disk brakes, new 1/18.
First time I ran a timed mile, ROTC age 18, I ran 11.5 minutes. I was riding an english racer 3 spd in those days. Army got me down to 14.5 minute 2 miles in combat boots age 30. But I couldn't do that now with Viet Nam era knees (no cartledge). Biking keeps my knees moving with minimal pain. My legs are 28" so I was never going to be a track star.

Do orthodic inserts make any difference?

 

[BikeMike]

The evolo aurora at least has a serious looking rear shelf and fenders. Drop frame is nice past age 60; I lost a lot of muscle stretch there but not any strength.
The new harmony 380 has some internal lubricant which sometimes leaks out, and people here have reported software errors. Lubricant may thicken up in winter. As it is made in Texas I wish you all the luck in the world. Been thinking about one. Shimano Index shifting put a 2" dia. cyst above my thumb joint, and a twist shifter is so stiff it takes gloves to make it downshift when wet.
I found in going from shimano 7 spd derailleur mtn bike to Sturmey Archer 8 speed internal gear hub (same bike), I lost 20 minutes on my 30 mile commute to the country. Hopefully the electric motor will make any IGH drag invisible to you.
95 rpm, wow. I do about 70 except on steep hills. And I'm only 8 years older than you.

Are you sure everything is properly greased and torqued?

 

[BikeMike]

The evolo aurora at least has a serious looking rear shelf and fenders. Drop frame is nice past age 60; I lost a lot of muscle stretch there but not any strength.
The new harmony 380 has some internal lubricant which sometimes leaks out, and people here have reported software errors. Lubricant may thicken up in winter. As it is made in Texas I wish you all the luck in the world. Been thinking about one. Shimano Index shifting put a 2" dia. cyst above my thumb joint, and a twist shifter is so stiff it takes gloves to make it downshift when wet.
I found in going from shimano 7 spd derailleur mtn bike to Sturmey Archer 8 speed internal gear hub (same bike), I lost 20 minutes on my 30 mile commute to the country. Hopefully the electric motor will make any IGH drag invisible to you.
95 rpm, wow. I do about 70 except on steep hills. And I'm only 8 years older than you.

Have you considered Velofix or Beeline coming to your workplace or home for maintenance?

https://www.velofix.com/services/

https://beelinebikes.com/

 

[indianajo]

I'm a physicist that does his own maintenance. I worked as an engineer until that was outlawed, then as a factory maintenance man last job. If I can't do it it doesn't get done. Waiting for experts is one of my pet peeves.
This yubabikes bodaboda was superbly adjusted when I got it in January. Even the shifter hit all 24 ratios. Had to add a little air in the tires, install handlebar and front fender, and ride. Mechanical disks gave no problems until I had to take the rear tire off due to a flat.
I've been into shimano hubs a dozen times for backed off bearing races that dropped balls on the road, or in one case, a broken axle shaft. Have my own pack of 100 balls now. Shimano 6 speed is **** that breaks, the 7 speed shaft is 2 mm thicker and won't break probably but bearing race is not properly retained. Had to add an extra locknut internally to replace their stupid design that backs off on the road. This new bodaboda is sram hub, no problems yet.
Both power wheels I've bought were ****. ebikeling.com one from last year runs 5-13 miles then drops power and has to be pedaled home. Appears to be some electrical fault in the motor. Blew the warrenty period getting the defective battery adjusted that failed after 10 miles. It is out in country, don't want to disassemble all those little parts out there with primitive tools.
apluschoice power wheel from ebay bought 6/28, rode okay unpowered 20 miles then bound up internally. Couldn't pedal over 1/2 mph. I emailed vendor via ebay for return authorization but no response. Working up the nerve to open that one up and see if it is a bad bearing or as it feels, a wire wrapped around the shaft. Ball race retainer could have backed off too, with shimano as the "world standard", POS.

 

[BikeMike]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_band#Electric_motors


Electric motorsEdit
Electric motors are unique in many ways, especially when it comes to the power band. The exact characteristics vary greatly with the type of electric motor. The maximum torque of a universal motor (vacuum cleaner, small machines, drills, starter motors) is reached instantly and falls for higher RPM. For induction motors connected to a fixed frequency AC source (most common in large applications), the maximum torque is usually just below the synchronous RPM, sinks to zero for this RPM and becomes negative above it (induction generator); at low RPM the torque is usually slightly lower. Synchronous motors can be used only at one to the AC source synchronous velocity. In modern applications, synchronous and induction motors with electronic control of the frequency are used, e.g., Brushless DC electric motors. In this case, unless external limitations are applied, the maximum torque is achieved at low RPM.
For example, the AC motor found in the Tesla Roadster (2008) produces near constant maximum torque from 0 to about 6000 RPM, while maximum power occurs at about 10000 RPM, long after torque begins to drop off. The Roadster's redline is 14000 RPM. Other electric motors may in fact produce maximum torque throughout their entire operating range, although their maximum operating speed may be limited for improved reliability.

 

[BikeMike]

I'm a physicist that does his own maintenance. I worked as an engineer until that was outlawed, then as a factory maintenance man last job. If I can't do it it doesn't get done. Waiting for experts is one of my pet peeves.
This yubabikes bodaboda was superbly adjusted when I got it in January. Even the shifter hit all 24 ratios. Had to add a little air in the tires, install handlebar and front fender, and ride. Mechanical disks gave no problems until I had to take the rear tire off due to a flat.
I've been into shimano hubs a dozen times for backed off bearing races that dropped balls on the road, or in one case, a broken axle shaft. Have my own pack of 100 balls now. Shimano 6 speed is **** that breaks, the 7 speed shaft is 2 mm thicker and won't break probably but bearing race is not properly retained. Had to add an extra locknut internally to replace their stupid design that backs off on the road. This new bodaboda is sram hub, no problems yet.
Both power wheels I've bought were ****. ebikeling.com one from last year runs 5-13 miles then drops power and has to be pedaled home. Appears to be some electrical fault in the motor. Blew the warrenty period getting the defective battery adjusted that failed after 10 miles. It is out in country, don't want to disassemble all those little parts out there with primitive tools.
apluschoice power wheel from ebay bought 6/28, rode okay unpowered 20 miles then bound up internally. Couldn't pedal over 1/2 mph. I emailed vendor via ebay for return authorization but no response. Working up the nerve to open that one up and see if it is a bad bearing or as it feels, a wire wrapped around the shaft. Ball race retainer could have backed off too, with shimano as the "world standard", POS.

I am an iPhone developer. I really do not conceptualize the world in terms of physics. I reason about problems in a more general way. You are in a better position to assess electric motors and transmission output. I may be very wrong, but 750W and 95NM seems like it would overwhelm CVT inefficiency. From what i gather in a general sense, CVTs are not necessarily inefficient.

I find it hard to imagine drag is a significant issue. The hub may get very hot due to friction. A seal may burst due to exceesive pressure.

I perceive ebikes as electric scooters. CVTs are appropriate for small powered devices like scooters. To my mind, CVTs are more appropriate to eBikes, than bicycle gears. I would even argue small motorcycle gearboxes are more appropriate than bicycle gears. Shimano new eBike IGH indicates a future trend:

https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/info...upgrade-for-ebikes-with-shimano-steps-an.html

Are you of a different opinion?

 

[BikeMike]

A CVT bicycle chainring

 

[BikeMike]

CVT for Bosch fans

​

 

[BikeMike]

Minimal CVT on a bike frame

 

[indianajo]

I think CVT would be fine with an electric motor. Just, the two electric motors I've bought have left me pedaling 20 miles with no power. The last one failed so badly I had to call for a ride. With $3000 bike and a warrenty, you should have no problems. Particularly since you're short tripping.
Per post 85, I read Audels motor book in 1967. More efficiency at higher speeds of AC motors is why I bought a geared hub at first, since I ride 300 lb up 15% grades. Geared hub motors are rare and the most expensive brands won't sell to me. I don't want mid-drive because one goal is 80 mile RT to Madison IN barbeque blues & beer festival etc, no electricity avalable there, and I would have to ride 15% grades near my summer camp with a dead battery. Mid drive deletes 15 tooth front sprocket, necessary for steep grades. In city Denver you should be fine with mid drive. Don't try the Aspen to Leadville cross mountain trail with that setup.

 

[BikeMike]

I think CVT would be fine with an electric motor. Just, the two electric motors I've bought have left me pedaling 20 miles with no power. The last one failed so badly I had to call for a ride. With $3000 bike and a warrenty, you should have no problems. Particularly since you're short tripping.
Per post 85, I read Audels motor book in 1967. More efficiency at higher speeds of AC motors is why I bought a geared hub at first, since I ride 300 lb up 15% grades. Geared hub motors are rare and the most expensive brands won't sell to me. I don't want mid-drive because one goal is 80 mile RT to Madison IN barbeque blues & beer festival etc, no electricity avalable there, and I would have to ride 15% grades near my summer camp with a dead battery. Mid drive deletes 15 tooth front sprocket, necessary for steep grades. In city Denver you should be fine with mid drive. Don't try the Aspen to Leadville cross mountain trail with that setup.

Why not carry a second battery? I will probably carry a second battery. I would like to ride parts of the Colorado Trail. I certainly need two batteries for that. I doubt the bike is suitable, though.

 

[BikeMike]

This type of memorable experience is a benefit of bike riding. I have never seen a balloon land before, while driving a car.

a big

 

[BikeMike]

The first experience comparing an eBike to a conventional bike is the buying, rather than riding or service, experience. I have never had a "Better" (+2) bike shop experience. Buying an eBike over the phone was a Better (+2) experience. Let me be specific.

I prefer to use -3 to +3 scale to improve communication accuracy . Almost all adjective pairs can be directly mapped to a -3 to +3 scale, without the need for interpretation or explanation.

• Worst(-3)
• Worse(-2)
• Bad(-1)
• 
  
• Ambivalence(0)
• 
  
• Good(+1)
• Better(+2)
• Best(+3)

I have had mostly Ambivalent (0) experiences with bike shops. Some were clearly Bad(-1). My last four bike repair experiences were all negative (-1 to -3). I became fed up and decided to give Velofix (mobile repair and bike shop) and Evelo (online bike manufacturer direct sales) a try. I am mostly interested in obtaining information from bike shops. Face-to-face interaction seems to have little to do with information exchange. Sales people are eager to provide information over the phone. This irony of human psychology is counter-intuitive.

I have never had a Bad(-1) buying experience; mostly Ambivalent(0). The Bad(-1) bike shop experiences are all due to poor service. I feel like the bike shops do not live up to their promises about service. They cannot see beyond the transaction. The bike industry ponders about why customers do not return. Bike shops must learn from the automobile industry, or face extinction. Bike shops cannot afford to train staff like a manufacturer's telesales department can.

 

[BikeMike]

My Evelo Aurora does not arrive for six weeks, due to high backorder volume. The extended wait gives me time to consider how I will evalute the eBike during the ten day trial period.

Velofix will deliver and assemble the bike in my driveway for $150. On the first day, i will focus on manufacturing defects or bike design inefficiencies. I have no problem paying $150 to know that i did not cause any bike problems.

I will time several short runs on my conventional bikes, in my neighborhood, to compare an eBike with conventional bikes. The first test will be unpowered. I am unsure how many powered eBikes tests to run against the conventional bike.

 

[indianajo]

Why not carry a second battery? I will probably carry a second battery. I would like to ride parts of the Colorado Trail. I certainly need two batteries for that. I doubt the bike is suitable, though.

At a music festival the bike will be chained to a pole for several hours, with a defined time that I won't be back (after the concert). A spare bike battery is a >$300 accessory, easily removed from a bag or basket. Hooligans roam the streets during festivals like Derby, since they can't afford a ticket or enjoy the freedom of all the cops in town being at the venue. I saw two missing front wheels on bikes chained to poles Sunday after Derby 2016. I don't suppose anybody sold or reused the wheels, they just pitched them in someone's yard for meanness.
OTOH if you're long distance touring, you're with the bike at all times or parked in front of restaurants or attractions where crime levels should be down to normal. A spare battery would be less of a risk.
I've got my battery screwed in a frame to the bike, where it would take 2 screwdrivers, a wrench, and 20 minutes to remove it. Or a battery powered grinding tool, with the attendant noise and flame. Easier to cut the cable with the tool and just throw the whole bike in the van. E-bicycle theft here is not a profession, although the pros are really stealing gas scooters frequently.
I find when paying for repairs I get *****ed about 1/2 the time. Nobody at LBS knew anything when I was shopping for cargo bikes or ventilated bike helmets with chin guards. Hooray for the internet.

 

[BikeMike]

At a music festival the bike will be chained to a pole for several hours, with a defined time that I won't be back (after the concert). A spare bike battery is a >$300 accessory, easily removed from a bag or basket. Hooligans roam the streets during festivals like Derby, since they can't afford a ticket or enjoy the freedom of all the cops in town being at the venue. I saw two missing front wheels on bikes chained to poles Sunday after Derby 2016. I don't suppose anybody sold or reused the wheels, they just pitched them in someone's yard for meanness.
OTOH if you're long distance touring, you're with the bike at all times or parked in front of restaurants or attractions where crime levels should be down to normal. A spare battery would be less of a risk.
I've got my battery screwed in a frame to the bike, where it would take 2 screwdrivers, a wrench, and 20 minutes to remove it. Or a battery powered grinding tool, with the attendant noise and flame. Easier to cut the cable with the tool and just throw the whole bike in the van. E-bicycle theft here is not a profession, although the pros are really stealing gas scooters frequently.
I find when paying for repairs I get *****ed about 1/2 the time. Nobody at LBS knew anything when I was shopping for cargo bikes or ventilated bike helmets with chin guards. Hooray for the internet.

You did the same thing that i did to my car stereo. The same thief broke into my pickup truck three times at my girlfriends apartment in San Francisco. He finally got my radio.

In Germany, some backpacks now have inner sleves for eBike batteries. You could easily modify a backpack.

The solution are bike cages. Why don't you contact the concert promoter or a bike shop. I live within riding distance of Red Rocks Ampitheatre. I never go there due to fear of bike theft or damage. A bike cage would allow me to buy season tickets. The promoters interests are served with bike security.

 

[BikeMike]

At a music festival the bike will be chained to a pole for several hours, with a defined time that I won't be back (after the concert). A spare bike battery is a >$300 accessory, easily removed from a bag or basket. Hooligans roam the streets during festivals like Derby, since they can't afford a ticket or enjoy the freedom of all the cops in town being at the venue. I saw two missing front wheels on bikes chained to poles Sunday after Derby 2016. I don't suppose anybody sold or reused the wheels, they just pitched them in someone's yard for meanness.
OTOH if you're long distance touring, you're with the bike at all times or parked in front of restaurants or attractions where crime levels should be down to normal. A spare battery would be less of a risk.
I've got my battery screwed in a frame to the bike, where it would take 2 screwdrivers, a wrench, and 20 minutes to remove it. Or a battery powered grinding tool, with the attendant noise and flame. Easier to cut the cable with the tool and just throw the whole bike in the van. E-bicycle theft here is not a profession, although the pros are really stealing gas scooters frequently.
I find when paying for repairs I get *****ed about 1/2 the time. Nobody at LBS knew anything when I was shopping for cargo bikes or ventilated bike helmets with chin guards. Hooray for the internet.

I bought Veloinsurance. Expensive, but i feel like a marked man. A thief has a big incentive to steal a bike like mine. About one in three drivers cut me off. I am powerless to change their rude behavior. All i can do is protect myself from harm due to human nature.

 

[BikeMike]

At a music festival the bike will be chained to a pole for several hours, with a defined time that I won't be back (after the concert). A spare bike battery is a >$300 accessory, easily removed from a bag or basket. Hooligans roam the streets during festivals like Derby, since they can't afford a ticket or enjoy the freedom of all the cops in town being at the venue. I saw two missing front wheels on bikes chained to poles Sunday after Derby 2016. I don't suppose anybody sold or reused the wheels, they just pitched them in someone's yard for meanness.
OTOH if you're long distance touring, you're with the bike at all times or parked in front of restaurants or attractions where crime levels should be down to normal. A spare battery would be less of a risk.
I've got my battery screwed in a frame to the bike, where it would take 2 screwdrivers, a wrench, and 20 minutes to remove it. Or a battery powered grinding tool, with the attendant noise and flame. Easier to cut the cable with the tool and just throw the whole bike in the van. E-bicycle theft here is not a profession, although the pros are really stealing gas scooters frequently.
I find when paying for repairs I get *****ed about 1/2 the time. Nobody at LBS knew anything when I was shopping for cargo bikes or ventilated bike helmets with chin guards. Hooray for the internet.

https://commutingsolutions.org/improving-the-speed-of-transit-one-bike-n-ride-shelter-at-a-time/

 

[indianajo]

I like those bike cages under a CC camera. Might happen at Red Rocks some day. Will never happen here. Louisville has for about 4 year gotten to thunderstuding steel loops to the sidewalk to lock bikes to. No CC camera.
I've only seen two electric bikes in Kentuckiana, both home conversions of mountain bikes. The one I chased down shopping at Save-a-Lot had soldered his own battery together from cells he bought on ali-express. Talk about do-it-yourself! Not even welded. As I have never seen him again, the reliability might not be that great.
I lock my $50 mountain bike to the no parking signpost right behind the photographer's head at KY Center for the Arts when I go to the symphony. I've never taken the $2000 cargo bike down there yet.

 

[BikeMike]

I like those bike cages under a CC camera. Might happen at Red Rocks some day. Will never happen here. Louisville has for about 4 year gotten to thunderstuding steel loops to the sidewalk to lock bikes to. No CC camera.
I've only seen two electric bikes in Kentuckiana, both home conversions of mountain bikes. The one I chased down shopping at Save-a-Lot had soldered his own battery together from cells he bought on ali-express. Talk about do-it-yourself! Not even welded. As I have never seen him again, the reliability might not be that great.
I lock my $50 mountain bike to the no parking signpost right behind the photographer's head at KY Center for the Arts when I go to the symphony. I've never taken the $2000 cargo bike down there yet. View attachment 24769

A beautiful center. Your government might be highly motivated to provide biking services because government can no longer afford to expand or even adequately maintain the road and parking infrastructure. You need to get proactive. Bike solutions are dirt cheap, compared to roads and parking. Get involved! You can make a significant difference.

If government fails, then a private company might be interested.