What is a fair way to compare an Ebike to a conventional bike? An eBike for an Amateur Cyclist.

[BikeMike]

I like those bike cages under a CC camera. Might happen at Red Rocks some day. Will never happen here. Louisville has for about 4 year gotten to thunderstuding steel loops to the sidewalk to lock bikes to. No CC camera.
I've only seen two electric bikes in Kentuckiana, both home conversions of mountain bikes. The one I chased down shopping at Save-a-Lot had soldered his own battery together from cells he bought on ali-express. Talk about do-it-yourself! Not even welded. As I have never seen him again, the reliability might not be that great.
I lock my $50 mountain bike to the no parking signpost right behind the photographer's head at KY Center for the Arts when I go to the symphony. I've never taken the $2000 cargo bike down there yet. View attachment 24769

You also need to talk to them in a language they will understand. Ask them if they want cyclists to have horrible experiences because their bike was vandalized or stolen?

It's like the car drivers who refuse to yield to cyclists. What if cyclists starting misbehaving that way towards those car drivers as pedestrians walking their dogs on the "bike path"?

Nobody wants that bad feeling. You must insist the officials give you a decent experience by providing adequate security. It is actually in everyone's interests. Cyclists are responsible for ensuring their needs are expressed. If government ignores, then other measures apply.

 

[ebikemom]

I will time several short runs on my conventional bikes, in my neighborhood, to compare an unpowered eBike with conventional bikes.

Um, conventional bikes will win, unless you work a lot harder dragging around that motor and battery extra weight!

 

[ebikemom]

I will time several short runs on my conventional bikes, in my neighborhood, to compare an unpowered eBike with conventional bikes.

Your conventional bikes will win, unless you work a lot harder dragging around that motor and battery!!

 

[BikeMike]

Your conventional bikes will win, unless you work a lot harder dragging around that motor and battery!!

The test will be a tie. The conventional bike will win the unpowered test. However, i will run a second or more tests at some power level.

Perhaps, i was unclear?

 

[BikeMike]

The test will be a tie. The conventional bike will win the unpowered test. However, i will run a second or more tests at some power level.

Perhaps, i was unclear?

I forgot to mention that part of the reason for this test is to optimize the gearing. I wonder if i need to replace the rear sprocket? The NuVinci 380% gear ratio has certain technical limitations, listed below.
CRANKS:
Bafang AC08-2 Alloy Crank Arms, 170 mm Length, 46 Tooth Chainring

GEARING DETAILS:
1 Speed 1x∞ Premium: ,
Fully Loaded: NuVinci N380 Harmony HI8 (Fully Automatic Electronic Shifting System),
18 Tooth Rear Sprocket

• Replace rear is the solution, if the gears spin out before hitting 35mph. Replace with 17 Tooth sprocket and shorten chain by removing one link.
• http://www.enviolo.com/en/nuvincicycling/harmony. ( not the Harmony H|Sync™, which is confusing).
• Now renamed to enviolo, which just confuses matters evermore.
• Technical Manual see page 35.
• This gets very technical.
  • I assume the hub is either: Enviolo CA(100 NM) or **SP(120)**, based on NM.
    
    

​

Attaching a derailleur to the motor/bottom bracket area is very unlikely. The entire area is enclosed by a fairing, like a motorcycle.

The default chainring/sprocket ratio is 2.6. The wheel is 26". Is this enough information to calculate maximum speed? I consistently hit 35mph on my road bike and 30mph on my mountain bike, on the hills in my area. This data is giving me a headache, trying to determine the number of teeth needed on the rear sprocket.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16114

https://lunacycle.com/bafang-bbs02-chainring-44-46-48-or-52-tooth/

https://electricbike-blog.com/bbs02-chainrings/

A hill near me is in the 5% to 10% grade range.

 

[ebikemom]

Just saw that bike ridden by someone in my town!!

 

[BikeMike]

Just saw that bike ridden by someone in my town!!

If you get the chance, Ask them if they can reach 35mph with the stock gearing 46/18T (2.6 sprocket ratio), 26" wheels.

• I spin out at about 30mph on my Yeti mountain bike 32/10T (3.2 sprocket ratio), 29" wheels.
• My road bike is a Compact chainring (50T big ring) with 11T, as the lowest (4.5 sprocket ratio), 650B wheels, 27.5".

These small distinctions make a big difference on the bike.

Approximately (do not know exact wheel diameter with tire, assuming 26) 67 gear inches for Aurora.
I suspect the maximum pedaling speed is approximately 25 to 30mph. The maximum motor/throttle speed is limited by the controller software settings.

The smallest rear sprocket tooth size for the NuVinici hub is 16. So, a 52 tooth chain ring is necessary for higher speeds. However, NuVinci does not recommend such a high gear ratio.

The NuVinci N380 allows for a ratio range of 380%. You can go from a 0.5 underdrive to a 1.9 overdrive (0.5 x 3.8 = 1.9). I believe this means the high-end gearing is equivalent to 67 * 1.9 = 127 gear inches? If so, the bike is geared for the speeds encountered along the hilly sections of the C470 bikeWAY.

92 gear inches for Yeti and 124 for road bike.

See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear_inches

Gear inches is one of several relative measures of bicycle gearing, giving an indication of the mechanical advantage of different gears. Values for 'gear inches' typically range from

• 20 (very low gearing)
• 70 (medium gearing) to
• 125 (very high gearing);

as in a car, low gearing is for going up hills and high gearing is for going fast.

https://electricbike-blog.com/bbs02-chainrings/

If you want to trailride and keep a stock ring the only choice that makes any sense in the front ring is the 44 tooth and I’m of the opinion that even that is way too big. If you want to consistently go over 25 mph on the road and still be able to pedal along then the only logical choice is the 52 T ring. If you have a recumbent or a trike with small wheels, or a trike then the 52T will not be big enough and you will need to get a custom adapter.

 

[BikeMike]

The evolo aurora at least has a serious looking rear shelf and fenders. Drop frame is nice past age 60; I lost a lot of muscle stretch there but not any strength.
The new harmony 380 has some internal lubricant which sometimes leaks out, and people here have reported software errors. Lubricant may thicken up in winter. As it is made in Texas I wish you all the luck in the world. Been thinking about one. Shimano Index shifting put a 2" dia. cyst above my thumb joint, and a twist shifter is so stiff it takes gloves to make it downshift when wet.
I found in going from shimano 7 spd derailleur mtn bike to Sturmey Archer 8 speed internal gear hub (same bike), I lost 20 minutes on my 30 mile commute to the country. Hopefully the electric motor will make any IGH drag invisible to you.
95 rpm, wow. I do about 70 except on steep hills. And I'm only 8 years older than you.

Are you sure your gear ratio is correct for your riding style? My guess is your gear ratio is too high, causing you to pedal at too slow of a cadence.

See my previous post. My guess is your bike is geared something like my road bike, when your riding style is more similar to my mountain bike gearing. Your pedaling will be very inefficient and you will suffer needlessly. The risk of overgearing is seriously damaging your knees.

Most people are unaware of the difference and especially the consequences.

https://electricbike-blog.com/bbs02-chainrings/

The most important thing to remember when picking the front chainwheel is that you want to spend 90% of your pedaling time in the CENTER of the back cassette. Don’t pick a front ring that will keep you always on the smallest cog in the back and likewise you should not be spending all your time on the largest cog either. The chains last longest when there is a clean chainline and the power is being applied in a more or less straight line.

 

[BikeMike]

Tires: I want a tire as similar to Schwable Super Moto-X as possible.

I can only find the outer rim width, 45mm, not the inner rim width. I assume these rims are not tubeless. I need to buy two spare tubes.

https://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/road_tires/super-moto-x

I think this is too wide of a tire.

Schwalbe 2011 Super Moto HS 338 (MSRP $94.55) — For the beach, dusty trails and of course the road. These are where it's most at home. It evolved from the comfortable Big Apple city tire to become a great beach and dirt trail tire. And because volume is as important as tread for outstanding control, we used the carcass and SpeedGrip Compound from the Racing Ralph to create a super-fast and fun tire.
Specifications Compare to other Tires
Price $95 Weight 630 g Tire Width 2.35 Diameter 26" Riding Genre Street/XC Bead Type

 

[BikeMike]

Here are some of the details as to why i feel CVT in the rear hub, rather than a cassette, is so important for a powerful (i.e., 500W to 750W) eBike. I consider eBikes to be electric scooters. Scooters have CVT transmissions, rather than cassette gears or a motorcycle gearbox.

http://www.ebikeportal.com/nuvinci-n380-automatic-transmission-a-revolution-for-ebikes

"It is exactly when coupled with an ebike that we think a continuosly variable automatic transmission makes the most sense. And especially on an ebike with a central motor: a central motor works directly on the transmission of the ebike, and its rotational speed is therefore directly linked to the pedalling cadence. The NuVinci N380 makes it possible to have the motor always work at the right cadence, when its efficiency is highest. This translates into a motor which can better deliver its power and ultimately consume less energy."

A 50cc scooter is about 1500 watts, or twice the 750W max for an ebike. Scooters also weigh at least twice as much as a bike. BTW, the Evelo Aurora has a step through design, like a scooter. If i can truly generate 800W like the bike shop watt meter claimed, then the total power output is in the electric scooter range.

Interestingly, a bottom bracket mounted motor on an eBike is closer to a motorcycle frame design. A hub powered eBike is closer to a scooter, where the motor is attached to the rear axle. The "Underbone" motorcycle design is apparent from the eBike downtube/bottom bracket motor attachment.

EBike wheels are closer in size to a motorcycle than a scooter. Motorcycles sometimes have wire spoked wheels, but scooters seldom have bicycle like wheels.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scooter_(motorcycle)#Electric_scooter

https://electricbike-blog.com/bbs02-chainrings/

You can hear the Nuvinci automatically "downshifting" in this video, as the wheel gradually slows down. You can also see the red light turn on as the gear ratio changes.

One of the issues with direct drive is that you can wear through the chains, chainrings and cassettes quite fast when you consider that the average human puts out about 100 watts of power and the BBS02 easily puts out close to 1000. ...

• If you try shifting under load you will break chains and wear your teeth down fast.
• If your chainline is not right your bike will skip under load.
• If you use cogs and chainrings that are too soft you will be changing them out several times a year.

 

[BikeMike]

Initially, i defined this bike as a foul-weather bike, or 25F to 45F temperatures and/or 15 to 25 mph NW winds.

I am expanding the definition to also include foul-mood bike. By foul-mood, i mean when i might feel groggy or hung over in the morning. On mornings, when my legs ache enough to protest against pedalling. Or, i might feel plain lazy.

Foul-mood, in this sense, means when i am not in the mood to get in sync with a conventional bike. A bike takes a lot of mental coordination. Some days, i would rather offload the physical, and especially mental effort, onto the motor and controller.

 

[BikeMike]

A tip about riding by cadence sensing without torque sensing.

When you ride by cadence, as opposed to torque sensing, the bike will slow down as you go uphill. Slowing is simply a natural biking effect. The trick to simulating torque sensing is to use the up arrow to increase the power assist level. When you reach the top of the hill and start to descend, you reduce the power assist level.

In other words, adding more power to maintain the same speed when going uphill, is usually a manual procedure.

On a conventional bike, you would compensate for the incline by applying more torque through the pedals. You could still push down harder on the pedals, but you want to maintain a consistent cadence. I typically stand up on the pedals to apply greater torque, rather than trying to increase my cadence. I usually pass people going uphill who downshift into a lower gear and increase their cadence. You can catch and pass other cyclists in a fair predictable manner, by maintaining a steady cadence.

You achieve pedalling and energy efficiency by maintaining a steady cadence. When you offload motor cadence -- RPM -- to the automatic functions in the electronic hub and motor controller, you also allow the motor and battery to also run most efficiently.

If you have ever connected to a car's Onboard Diagnostic Computer (required by law on all cars), you can display TPS or Throttle Position. I was able to increase gas mileage by 33%, by gingerly increasing TPS through the gas pedal. In other words, pushing the gas pedal as lightly as possible. You will see the same information displayed as Watts on the Aurora display.

I always get a big kick out of passing people who see me coming up behind them through their mirror. As i approach their tail, they increase both cadence and torque. They fatigue within 100 pedal strokes, which means they downshift. I just keep everything exactly consistent. They give up mentally and I accelerate past them. They are counterproductive.

 

[BikeMike]

Throttle distance: Test #3

Just another data point for completeness.

 

[BikeMike]

I decided to csncel my Evelo order. The reasons are explained here:

https://electricbikereview.com/foru...sues-with-davinci-n380-and-750w-motors.24863/

The conclusion is:

I can learn how to fix a conventional bike. Electronics are much harder to repair, or may be disallowed by warranty. Service, warranty, and trained sales people becomes an essential component of long term success of the eBike industry. That lesson was difficult for the auto industry.

I think i now know a major reason why experienced cyclists avoid eBikes. For a while, CO laws prevented it. I rarely encounter strong attitudes against eBikes. I think the matter is more related to personal experience with conventional bikes, than a bias against eBikes. Bike maintenance and repair is inconvenient and expensive. Compounding the issues is not a perceived benefit.

It certainly does not seem like the skiing vs. snowboarding drama of yesteryear. I have both skiing and snowboarding equipment. Each has its own advantages in certain conditions. I hate to snowboard on icy conditions. I prefer to snowboard in powder. I feel the same way towards road and mountain bikes.

Ebikes will never replace cars. Ebikes are another form of transportation or recreation. Like any product, eBikes have their strengths and weaknesses. The question is whether the tradeoffs are a benefit or liability for your given situation.

 

[BikeMike]

The best way i have found to balance tradeoffs is to use the following rating scale. Determining whether a product is more of a benefit than a liability is made much easier. Also, the scale makes evaluating experiences much more clear.

I prefer to use -3 to +3 for an important reason that improves accuracy — ordinary English usage. Almost all adjective pairs can be directly mapped to a -3 to +3 scale, without the need for interpretation or explanation. For example,

• Worst(-3),
• Worse(-2),
• Bad(-1)
• 
  
• Ambivalence(0)
• 
  
• Good(+1),
• Better(+2)
• Best(+3)

 

[BikeMike]

The Maserati Trofeo is the fairest comparison. You can pedal the Trofeo with or without power.

Motor: MM G530.200 2.3 kg

Battery: BT F05.200 < 2kg

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

http://www.eurobike-show.com/eb-en/press/exhibitors-releases-detail.php?ListeID=3011&sMode=detail

Bafang M800 and the Maserati Trofeo e-road race bike
Bafang, one of Asia’s leading manufacturers of e-mobility components and complete e-drive systems, together with Diavelo and Maserati introduce a breakthrough in e-road bike technology.

The Maserati Trofeo e-race bike is the result of a combined design project between Bafang, Diavelo (owned by Accell Group) and Maserati. This ultra-light alloy electric road bike is creating a new category of e-bikes combining traditional road bike performance with an electric drivetrain system.

It is the ultimate racing bike for the amateur cyclist who needs a boost from the powerful BAFANG M800 Motor when it is needed - to follow friends on a training run or going uphill.

 

[BikeMike]

If you are into building eBikes, here are the components to build a Maserati Trofeo (Trophy).

I contacted VeloFix to see if they can build one for me. I do not have the skill or desire to build a bike.

If you are like me, Accell Group defines this market as the "Amateur Cyclist", which pretty much defines me.

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

http://www.lightcarbon.com/full-carbon-road-disc-ebike-frameset-with-flat-mount-brake_p81.html

 

[ebikemom]

So the kit comes with a frame? Interesting.

 

[BikeMike]

So the kit comes with a frame? Interesting.

No, they are from separate vendors. I hope Velofix can assemble the components into a bike.

 

[BikeMike]

So the kit comes with a frame? Interesting.

The tricky part is defining defining a market segment.

I rode my bike last Thankgiving weekend, CHristmas and New Years Eve. As I recall, those days were mild. I would use a bike like this on foul-weather or foul-mood days (like being hung over on New Years Day). I cannot remeber if any of those days were 25F to 45F and/or NW winds 15 to 25mph. Certainly, many days during that season are foul weather.

So, perhaps "Amateur Cyclist" is a better definition from an industry standpoint. I just see it as a bike for certain weather or physiological conditions.

One thing is for certain, those rides are the shortest and fastest of the year. I am very motivated to turn around and go home at the least provocation. You never catch me on my beloved mountain bike on a foul weather day. I do not feel good and do not want to clean up a big muddy mess on my bike. Especially, because it is usually dark when i return. The wider, 2.25" tires, are nice but only necessary if pockets of snow are on the bike path.

I want to ditch the bike, get out of uncomfortable clothes, jump into a steaming hot shower and get something warm to eat. Time and comfort are the dominating factors. The conditions are marginal in every respect. Hypothermia is probably foremost on my mind.

The only reason i do it is because i want to stay in shape. My performance drops substantially when i do not ride at least every other day. If i do not ride for two weeks, i will pay an avoidable price. I am unlike a commuter who needs to get to work on time, in a presentable manner, on a daily basis. I am unlike a mountain biker who enjoys sliding in filthy mud. I am squeezed for time and *opportunity*.

And the unsuspecting thing is: I do pick up a handful of groceries at Walmart to stuff in my camelback.