What is a fair way to compare an Ebike to a conventional bike? An eBike for an Amateur Cyclist.
- Thread starter BikeMike
- Start date
I read the consumer reports about bike insurance. State Farm was not in the top five for bikes. I went with Veloinsurance. I am switching from State Farm because they have a poor policy for bikes. I just cannot support an insurance company that has a bad policy towards bikes.
https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/homeowners-insurance/buying-guide/index.htm
Services are more promises than anything else. I slam any business that provides poor service.
Bikes are the ideal propery to steal. Very low likelihood of getting caught. High value. A thief could get shot or beaten to within inches of their lives, though.
My neighbors car was badly damaged by hail. The insurance company offer him a few thousand dollars cash on the spot. The actual damage was $6000. Most people take the cash and forego the repair. Everyone thinks they are outsmarting each other. Everyone loses. Some society we live in.
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ebikemom
Well-Known Member
Arriving faster than a car: I can do this on my way to work. My summer commute is in traffic on the way, and takes about 1.5 hours by car. 50 minutes by ebike. The ride home would be 25 minutes by car. Still 50 minutes by ebike.
Gains:
Faster commute (time savings, about 15 minutes).
Physical activity
Enjoyment of ride
Avoidance of bumper-to-bumper traffic
Environmental impacts lowered
Reducing congestion on roads
Losses:
Hmmmm ... ... ...
Gains:
Faster commute (time savings, about 15 minutes).
Physical activity
Enjoyment of ride
Avoidance of bumper-to-bumper traffic
Environmental impacts lowered
Reducing congestion on roads
Losses:
Hmmmm ... ... ...
I agree wholeheartedly. I get around Denver so fast and easily. Even in winter. For me riding is just great fun.
I cannot wait to test this. If i can succeed at this, it is very embarrassing for commuters.
https://electricbikereview.com/foru...-a-conventional-bike.24717/page-3#post-156402
Denver RTD has done studies. Most People are very resistant to ride more than 2.5 miles. I would like to change that attitude. Fear of theft is another big deterrent.
Battery performance is affected by cold weather. Bosch recommends a neoprene cover.
https://www.rosebikes.com/fahrer-ba...on-for-integrated-down-tube-batteries-2667758
https://www.rosebikes.com/fahrer-ba...on-for-integrated-down-tube-batteries-2667758
From Bosch, about battery performance:
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
Ideal conditions*
Flat terrain, approx. 15 km/h, no headwind,
approx. 20 °C [68F] outside temperature,
low rolling resistance, optimal gear shifting, weight without eBike < 70 kg, no additional connected components, e.g. lights.
Favorable conditions*
Slightly hilly terrain, approx. 20 km/h, slight headwind,
approx. 10 °C to 20 °C [50 to 70F] outside temperature,
medium rolling resistance, generally optimal gear shift- ing, weight without eBike 70 to 80 kg, additional connected components, e.g. lights.
Difficult conditions*
Hilly terrain, approx. 25 km/h (Speed: 30 km/h), headwind,
< 10 °C [50F] outside temperature,
high rolling resistance, unfavorable gear shifting, weight without eBike > 85 kg, additional connected components, e.g. lights.
Am i being stupid?
My original intention was to buy a foul-weather bike. The Operating temperatures for foul weather is primarily 25F to 50F, exactly what Bosch calls "difficult conditions". I intend to use my conventional bikes in 50F and higher temperatures.
I think i am being dense about cold weather. Tesla S lost about 33% of the projected range. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
To its credit, the Model S delivered 176 miles from a full charge in cold weather--considerably more than any other EV on the planet. While it was in line with what the car predicted, it proved well short of the rated 240 miles the car promised when I started, let alone the 265 estimated by the EPA or the 300 touted by Tesla. So even for the impressive Model S, it turns out that range anxiety is not completely eliminated. Adapting to EVs needs and limitations is still relevant. But the Tesla has proven to have far less limitations than other EVs
https://www.consumerreports.org/cro...e-of-the-tesla-model-s-electric-car/index.htm
This graph suggests to use an ebike in Denver only during the summer months, according to Bosch. Exactly, what i plan NOT to do. Certainly, do not use eBike from December through February, according to Bosch and the graph. The winter months are when the eBike has most value to me. That's when i would use it most heavily. That is what most of the accessories are intended for.
The more I investigate an eBike, the more marginal the utility becomes. The 300 pound total weight capacity limit imposed by Trek was the first instance. Now temperature range marginalizes the battery to six months. Insurance costs were another blow. Very inconvenient bike shop locations.
The prospect grows dimmer at every decision point.
Damn, I can be dense at times. Once sentence can tell you just about everything.
Typical conductivities of liquid electrolyte at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Electrolytes
Typical conductivities of liquid electrolyte at:
- room temperature (20 °C (68 °F)) are in the range of 10 mS/cm,
- increasing by approximately 30–40% at 40 °C (104 °F) and
- decreasing slightly at 0 °C (32 °F).[91]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Electrolytes
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I bought the Evelo Aurora fully loaded model with the Comfort and Safety packages, which should arrive in late September.
https://electricbikereview.com/evelo/aurora/
The reasons I chose this bike are:
https://electricbikereview.com/evelo/aurora/
The reasons I chose this bike are:
- Velofix delivery and service
- I am fed up with the local bike shop games.
- Scheduled mobile service at my home is a welcome relief.
- The sales people are knowledgeable and helpful
- A very good experience
- NuVinci N380 Harmony HI8 (Fully Automatic Electronic Shifting System)
- This makes total sense to me. The bike is designed like a scooter
- I feel the lack of this feature is the biggest drawback of all existing eBikes
- NuVinci® Harmony™ is the first fully automatic, continuously variable transmission. Other NuVinci® transmissions make it very easy to shift gear ratios, but Harmony™ ups the ante, providing an experience much like driving a car. Just set the desired cadence, and the system lets you always pedal at the same pace, whether you’re going up or down a hill.
- This should be similar to eMTB assist level on Bosch
- Watts displayed on the device.
- Notice the small arc labelled "W" (0-750), rather than the larger MPH part of the dial.
- Watts are key to understanding your interaction with the motor and battery system.
- I can attach a dongle to obtain and/or customize Motor Controller and Battery Management System information
- It has a throttle and walk mode
- Some days are lazy, so why be forced to always pedal?
- A built-in rack (55lb Max Weight), lights, fenders and kickstand
- 48V, 750W motor, the Class 1 or 2 settings can be changed from the display
- It can be converted to a pure Class 1 by detaching the wires.
- Some routes are city/suburban streets, which i do not want to be restricted to Class 1, 20mph.
- I certainly do not want to be excluded from vital 20 mph Class 1 bike paths.
- I just set the speed limit to suit the purpose.
- Can you see the highlighted item, named "Speed Limit ... 28mph", in the following picture, which can also be changed to 20 mph.
- Scroll to 20:00 minutes into this video:
- 500 wh battery.
- No hassle obtaining a second battery.
- Battery level displayed as a percentage
- 40 to 60 PSI tires
- Tektro Auriga E-Comp Hydraulic Disc with 160mm Rotors
- RIMS: HCL, Aluminum Alloy, Double Wall, 45mm Outer Width, 36 Hole, Black
- 26" x 2.0" tires
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A major reason was the NuVinci Harmony, which makes the bike's drivetrain like a scooter CVT. i consider eBikes to be electric scooters. A CVT drivetrain is more appropriate in my opinion.
I pedal at an extremely consistent 95RPM. I might go up to 105 to 120 on a steep hill. For the most part, i just want to pedal and leave the power decisions to the motor controller software. The BMS and motor controller have all the information needed to optimize battery consumption. I just want to pedal like normal. Let the computer make the calculations to achieve a designated speed. I hate to fiddle with or look at anything on the bike. I like to leave my hands free and my eyes on the road or bike path.
I vary torque rather than cadence, if that makes any sense to you? I EASILY and quickly generated 800 watts on the showroom demo, which i feel is broken. I just disregard those results as nonsense.
Hopefully, the Harmony will take the shifting and cycling skill out of the comparison. I just want to pedal the same on a conventional and eBike. Mostly, i want to forget about the hardware to avoid distraction.
I pedal at an extremely consistent 95RPM. I might go up to 105 to 120 on a steep hill. For the most part, i just want to pedal and leave the power decisions to the motor controller software. The BMS and motor controller have all the information needed to optimize battery consumption. I just want to pedal like normal. Let the computer make the calculations to achieve a designated speed. I hate to fiddle with or look at anything on the bike. I like to leave my hands free and my eyes on the road or bike path.
I vary torque rather than cadence, if that makes any sense to you? I EASILY and quickly generated 800 watts on the showroom demo, which i feel is broken. I just disregard those results as nonsense.
Hopefully, the Harmony will take the shifting and cycling skill out of the comparison. I just want to pedal the same on a conventional and eBike. Mostly, i want to forget about the hardware to avoid distraction.
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indianajo
Well-Known Member
The evolo aurora at least has a serious looking rear shelf and fenders. Drop frame is nice past age 60; I lost a lot of muscle stretch there but not any strength.
The new harmony 380 has some internal lubricant which sometimes leaks out, and people here have reported software errors. Lubricant may thicken up in winter. As it is made in Texas I wish you all the luck in the world. Been thinking about one. Shimano Index shifting put a 2" dia. cyst above my thumb joint, and a twist shifter is so stiff it takes gloves to make it downshift when wet.
I found in going from shimano 7 spd derailleur mtn bike to Sturmey Archer 8 speed internal gear hub (same bike), I lost 20 minutes on my 30 mile commute to the country. Hopefully the electric motor will make any IGH drag invisible to you.
95 rpm, wow. I do about 70 except on steep hills. And I'm only 8 years older than you.
The new harmony 380 has some internal lubricant which sometimes leaks out, and people here have reported software errors. Lubricant may thicken up in winter. As it is made in Texas I wish you all the luck in the world. Been thinking about one. Shimano Index shifting put a 2" dia. cyst above my thumb joint, and a twist shifter is so stiff it takes gloves to make it downshift when wet.
I found in going from shimano 7 spd derailleur mtn bike to Sturmey Archer 8 speed internal gear hub (same bike), I lost 20 minutes on my 30 mile commute to the country. Hopefully the electric motor will make any IGH drag invisible to you.
95 rpm, wow. I do about 70 except on steep hills. And I'm only 8 years older than you.
Do you recommend a different oil viscosity in winter?
The salesperson told me the motor freewheels and is easy to pedal, if i suffer an undervoltage shutdown in cold weather. I am having the bike delivered and assembled by Velofix. I am very sensitive to drag. I can sense when my tires are under or over inflated. We can quickly isolate drag issues. I will return the bike, if the penalty is too high. My understanding is some drag exists, but it is just a few percentage points. The 750W, 95NM motor, should compensate.
I also tested ebikes in a methodical manner. I always started with the motor off. I pedalled the bike without power to 27mph, from a dead stop. The major problem I experienced was after turning power on. Some bikes, especially Bosch, fought me when i tried to pedal them with power on. The bikes hit a wall and refused to budge over 20mph. I will duplicate this test on my flat road.
BTW - i ran a 25:25 five mile in high school.
https://electricbikereview.com/foru...le-transmission-hub-for-electric-bikes.22722/
Interesting… I’ve seen dyno systems at some ebike design offices and they use this to measure power. I think the NuVinci CVT freewheels so it shouldn’t add drag, same with the motor on your bike, it might be the brake pads rubbing or the axles being overly tight. The Evelo Orion is often shipped direct and may not have gotten the same tuneup as an electric bike purchased from a shop where they build, grease and test with pro-level equipment. I’ve put a few ebikes together over the years and they seem to not ride as well or have mistakes (because I’m not a pro mechanic). I usually take the
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Are you sure you have the right balance between cadence and torque? I can almost predict when i will overtake a rider who pedals with too much torque and too slow of a cadence.
Have you ever tried pacing yourself with someone who pedals at a slightly higher cadence? You might find you press too hard and not quickly enough.
Do you always check tire pressure before you ride? I ride tubeless road tires at 60/65 and mountain bike at 35/40.
Here is some technical information about geared hub efficiency. I think you might want to check axle tightness.
As with other traction-type CVTs, transmission of torque through the NuVinci CVT involves some relative sliding between the torque-transmitting contact patches.[9] This is because, for any given contact patch, parts of the ball are going in a slightly different direction and at slightly different speeds than the disc (this phenomenon of traction-type CVTs is referred to as "contact spin").
"The spin velocity (or drill speed) is defined as the difference in the rotational speed of the driving and driven rollers in a direction perpendicular to the contact patch plane.
It is caused by the relative difference in surface speeds of both elements across the contact patch and is a major source of power loss in traction drive CVT’s."[9]
In all traction-type CVTs, this relative sliding necessarily occurs between surfaces which are under the very high clamping pressures required to ensure torques are transmitted reliably.
This relative sliding under high pressures cause transmission losses (inefficiency). Fallbrook Technology refuse to publish any efficiency data for the NuVinci CVT.[10]
However, the NuVinci is a variant on the "Tilting-ball drive" type of continuously variable transmission (CVT), and the efficiency of "Tilting-ball drive" type CVTs is typically in the range of 70% to 89%.[11]
However, its geometry does differ significantly from the Kopp type of tilting ball variator in the reference in that the NuVinci has its torque transfer contacts on the outside diameter rather than the inside diameter, which puts the idler (an element that reacts clamping load) in compression rather than tension, and because the idler contact surface is not conformal as in the Kopp design.
In general because of the way the CVT is set up, it is more efficient at a 1:1 ratio compared to maximum overdrive or underdrive positions. Independent test results have shown that at 1:1 it is actually more efficient than comparable bicycle internal gear hubs, while at the ratio extremes it is slightly lower.[citation needed]
Their biggest advantage is the durability, while shifting under load and continuously, which is especially important with the powerful eBike drive systems.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NuVinci_Continuously_Variable_Transmission
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission
A belt-driven design offers approximately 88% efficiency,[1] which, while lower than that of a manual transmission, can be offset by lower production cost and by enabling the engine to run at its most efficient speed for a range of output speeds.
When power is more important than economy, the ratio of the CVT can be changed to allow the engine to turn at the RPM at which it produces greatest power. This is typically higher than the RPM that achieves peak efficiency.
In low-mass low-torque applications (such as motor scooters) a belt-driven CVT also offers ease of use and mechanical simplicity.
Simple rubber belt (non-stretching fixed circumference manufactured using various highly durable and flexible materials) CVTs are commonly used in small motorized vehicles, where their mechanical simplicity and ease of use outweigh their comparative inefficiency. Nearly all snowmobiles, utility vehicles, golf carts and motor scooters use CVTs, typically the rubber belt or variable pulley variety. Many small tractors and self-propelled mowers for home and garden also use simple rubber belt CVT. Hydrostatic systems are more common on the larger units—the walk-behind self-propelled mowers are of the slipping belt variety.
Toroidal or roller-based (Extroid)Edit
Toroidal CVTs are made up of discs and rollers that transmit power between the discs. The discs can be pictured as two almost conical parts, point to point, with the sides dished such that the two parts could fill the central hole of a torus. One disc is the input, and the other is the output. Between the discs are rollers which vary the ratio and which transfer power from one side to the other. When the roller's axis is perpendicular to the axis of the near-conical parts, it contacts the near-conical parts at same-diameter locations and thus gives a 1:1 gear ratio. The roller can be moved along the axis of the near-conical parts, changing angle as needed to maintain contact. This will cause the roller to contact the near-conical parts at varying and distinct diameters, giving a gear ratio of something other than 1:1. Systems may be partial or full toroidal. Full toroidal systems are the most efficient design while partial toroidals may still require a torque converter, and hence lose efficiency.
Some toroidal systems are also infinitely variable, and the direction of thrust can be reversed within the CVT.[8]
Diagrams:
Examples:
- Nissan Extroid CVT (pdf on Nissan-Global site)
- Torotrak
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indianajo
Well-Known Member
Nobody ever rides with me as I'm too slow. 9 mph with no wind. I ride cruiser posture, with a lot of drag. As I said, I'm not interested in flexing the neck. The wheelman club whizzes right by me without stopping at stop signs or lights, either. Did my fastest of summer last Tuesday 3.5 hours 30 miles, 5 mph unfavorable quarter wind. No load and downhill coming home.
I ride 55 psi (max for 2.1" tires) and squeeze test before leaving every time. Rim hits sidewalk/potholes with groceries if pressure it not up in the back. Had a brake disk drag one time after changing a tube, detectable with temperature check after 10 miles. Adjusted it. First bike with disk brakes, new 1/18.
First time I ran a timed mile, ROTC age 18, I ran 11.5 minutes. I was riding an english racer 3 spd in those days. Army got me down to 14.5 minute 2 miles in combat boots age 30. But I couldn't do that now with Viet Nam era knees (no cartledge). Biking keeps my knees moving with minimal pain. My legs are 28" so I was never going to be a track star.
I ride 55 psi (max for 2.1" tires) and squeeze test before leaving every time. Rim hits sidewalk/potholes with groceries if pressure it not up in the back. Had a brake disk drag one time after changing a tube, detectable with temperature check after 10 miles. Adjusted it. First bike with disk brakes, new 1/18.
First time I ran a timed mile, ROTC age 18, I ran 11.5 minutes. I was riding an english racer 3 spd in those days. Army got me down to 14.5 minute 2 miles in combat boots age 30. But I couldn't do that now with Viet Nam era knees (no cartledge). Biking keeps my knees moving with minimal pain. My legs are 28" so I was never going to be a track star.
Do you feel the wheel is the right size for your leg length? I am most comfortable on 29" wheels.
Do you feel the tire tread helps or hinders your pedalling? It takes a lot of trial and error to get these details optimized. I find small differences have a big impact.
My pedals have tiny metal pegs that stick to my mountain bike shoes. I move my foot around on the pedal to generate different types of force. I can control the amount of pressure on my joints that way.
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