My eBike is so much fun, I often forget to over-think the reasons why!
I agree that all good bikes are fun.
What is a fair way to compare an Ebike to a conventional bike? An eBike for an Amateur Cyclist.
- Thread starter BikeMike
- Start date
I agree that all good bikes are fun.
The Google Maps Traffic feature already color codes traffic congestion (i.e., negative feelings) for you. I am not a fan of cars. I sold my car because i get around Denver so easily on my bike. I want to encourage people to use bike sharing for the worst part of the commute to the RTD, a 2.5 mile radius. Few people will bike more than 2.5 miles. Here is a way to convince yourself of the benefits.
Let’s take a step towards statistics, without getting bogged down by technical considerations. A scale from -3 to +3 can mimic standard deviations. Discussion of statistics is beyond the scope of the post. Suffice it to say that a scale from -3 to +3 allows me to be more accurate about defining feelings, than a simple scale from +1 to +5 (which is arbitrary).
I prefer to use -3 to +3 for a more important reason that improves accuracy — ordinary English usage. Almost all adjective pairs can be directly mapped to a -3 to +3 scale, without the need for interpretation or explanation. For example,
- Worst(-3),
- Worse(-2),
- Bad(-1)
- Ambivalence(0)
- Good(+1),
- Better(+2)
- Best(+3)
A saavy entrepreneur can exploit this information to host events at the most advantageous locations or times.
I will use the -3 to +3 scale to evaluate every eBike experience. The trick is defining an eBike experience. I want to compare conventional and eBike experiences in a fair way.
https://electricbikereview.com/foru...bike-to-a-conventional-bike.24717/post-155995
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Day 1 Test (without eBike)
Day 1 Test #2
- I carried 28 pounds of food back from Walmart (1.5 miles) in a backpack .
- A "Good" (+1, on -3 to +3 scale)
- Some products, like ice cream, need to be transported quickly before they melt.
- I easily rode my mountain bike back up the very consistent, gradual 2% grade, wearing the full backpack.
- I expect pedalling the Powerfly unpowered to Walmart is a non-issue
- A "Good" (+1, on -3 to +3 scale)
- The return experience was unsafe.
- A "Bad" experience (-1, on -3 to +3 scale)
- I felt the backpack wanting to throw me over the handlebars when i braked.
- I almost fell down when turning a corner that was wet.
- The downhill speed was way too fast.
- I did not add extra air pressure to the rear suspension. The bumps felt weird.
- I cannot attach a rear rack to a carbon full suspension (Yeti ASR-C)
- This was totally contrary to my expectations.
- Starting from a dead stop was noticeable.
- One of bag of fruit got punctured in the backpack. It leaked over the kitchen floor.
- Ninety degrees turns onto sidewalks was slightly awkward.
Day 1 Test #2
- I just learned how slow the RTD bus service is.
- I dropped off my bike for service.
- I walked the 2.8 miles faster than the bus.
- Bikes are very effective in the 2.5 mile range.
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Defining the Red Rocks area experiences
Bear Creek road in Morrison separates Mt Falcon from Red Rocks Amphitheater. Mt. Falcon is considered a challenging mountain biking trail. If I recall correctly, The Wall is a 21% grade.
I will start in the Amphitheater area. I want to find roads or trails that are in 2.5% grade increments to make standard comparisons.
If tourist traffic at Red Rocks is too much, I will choose routes in a similar area, that is very close to home. The Deer Creek Canyon area. I already know trails which are 2.5% through 10%, in 2.5% increments. Deer Creek Canyon road may be the most popular road bike ride in the Denver area. I understand over one thousand people ride on the most popular weekends, including some former professional cyclists.
I love the wildlife in this area. I have seen bear and cougar tracks in the mud.
My path was once blocked by a six foot, bright green rattlesnake.
All sorts of bird life. I love watching the hawks hunt. Deer abound.
One year, I passed a bald eagle on his perch, probably over one hundred times.
So for me, the mountain biking experience is more about accessing nature, than climbing great trails.
I tend to wander all over. Some places are intimately familiar. Often, I only have a vague idea where I am at. I gave up using my iPhone 6 Plus for navigation, because my contacts interfere. Sweat gets all over the phone. So, the Nyon is useful. I do not like to plan routes, though.
South Valley Park is generally about a very consistent overall 9% grade. The C470 bikeway (not bike path) is on the east side of the Hogback. I hit 35mph everyday. I like going fast on the bike paths. I also like to wander around. I like to connect different paths by navigating by sense. You can connect all sorts of great routes, if you know how to look for unmarked connectors. That is often my favorite part of a road bike ride.
I have never been able to take a single battery seriously. I need two batteries to facilitate my tendency to wander. I only find my way by getting lost. This is an easy 40+ mile bike ride, that takes five hours round trip. I would not rely on a single battery.
A second battery adds $1000 to the cost. I think Trek is missing the market. The second battery should be highly discounted. This cost barrier is causing me to abandon the entire idea. I have to pay significantly more to overcome the product's own limitations? Better to wait for the technology to mature. This is probably a showstopper for me, because it also adds an additional six pounds of weight.
The trail just starts to get good at the 20 mile mark. I want to go much further, which a single battery prohibits.
Some of the trips aren't very pretty:
Bear Creek road in Morrison separates Mt Falcon from Red Rocks Amphitheater. Mt. Falcon is considered a challenging mountain biking trail. If I recall correctly, The Wall is a 21% grade.
I will start in the Amphitheater area. I want to find roads or trails that are in 2.5% grade increments to make standard comparisons.
- 2.5%
- 5.0%
- 7.5%
- 10.0%
- 15.0%
- 20.0%
I love the wildlife in this area. I have seen bear and cougar tracks in the mud.
My path was once blocked by a six foot, bright green rattlesnake.
One year, I passed a bald eagle on his perch, probably over one hundred times.
So for me, the mountain biking experience is more about accessing nature, than climbing great trails.
I tend to wander all over. Some places are intimately familiar. Often, I only have a vague idea where I am at. I gave up using my iPhone 6 Plus for navigation, because my contacts interfere. Sweat gets all over the phone. So, the Nyon is useful. I do not like to plan routes, though.
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
A second battery adds $1000 to the cost. I think Trek is missing the market. The second battery should be highly discounted. This cost barrier is causing me to abandon the entire idea. I have to pay significantly more to overcome the product's own limitations? Better to wait for the technology to mature. This is probably a showstopper for me, because it also adds an additional six pounds of weight.
- Why bother with an eBike, when a conventional bike is better suited?
- Why put up with the artificial eBike barriers? Old school mentality lowers product value.
The trail just starts to get good at the 20 mile mark. I want to go much further, which a single battery prohibits.
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An ebike won't do everything for you, but it will do some things.
The point i am trying to make is the industry has not provided a solution for range limitation. A second battery option would remove that objection. The workaround has been a hassle and expensive. It makes me feel like the product is not for me. It seems like a pity, because the win-win situation exists. The solution is not marketed.
Bosch's Dual Battery system is not aimed at reducing the cost of the second battery. The two batteries are different, rather than being the same interchangeable battery. If you owned two eBikes, you would want to keep the battery count at two, not more. The solution does not appear to be fully thought out.
The battery is the long term cost. The long term solution should be economical. From some of the responses, it is clear some people do not understand what they bought. Bicycles, scooters and motorcycles are easy to ride. But they are complex products.
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Day 2
I carried back 23 items amounting to 35 pounds today. A rack with one pannier and a Boxit for bulky items is equivalent to one backpack. The bike weight limit is 300 total pounds. The bike can only carry about 35 pounds of food when I ride it. The bike only has about half the carrying capacity that a 210 pound person needs.
One battery has half the range that I need, too.
Bikes are great!
I carried back 23 items amounting to 35 pounds today. A rack with one pannier and a Boxit for bulky items is equivalent to one backpack. The bike weight limit is 300 total pounds. The bike can only carry about 35 pounds of food when I ride it. The bike only has about half the carrying capacity that a 210 pound person needs.
One battery has half the range that I need, too.
Bikes are great!
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Stromer2work
Active Member
I agree. Maybe not an ebike button, but a feature for the bikes choice that allows users to enter (and save) the average MPH they ride a bicycle. I just cut the estimated time in half and that seems to work ok. Kudos on the extremely long thread, I scanned your stuff for the pics, no time to read everything, way too much info.
ebikemom
Well-Known Member
Google Maps bases its' time estimates on 7mph, I understand. My mph varies depending on the type of road, incline, etc. Google Maps also doesn't include all of the different ways bikes can travel (like some shared use paths through parks, for example, that it probably classifies as walkways). It takes me, generally 2/3rds of the Google Maps estimate, sometimes less though, depending on the route.
Do you know if Nyon estimates ETA? If so, is it more accurate?
You might be to find a way to apply google maps against a customized GPX file using ebike speeds, or an app that processes GPX files. Perhaps, strava? Certainly, a Garmin device. So, you can compare an eBike and conventional bike ride with recorded data.
Eventually, you will load the GPX file into Nyon. NYon updates the map data with your actual ride information. You can view the ride data from a conventional computer.
You can use Nyon information such as cadence and power to optimize your ride. Especially, if Nyon stores battery level information into the GPX file [which seems unlikely from this video]. But this app seems to diplay battery history:
https://github.com/cgiesche/ebikeconnect-gui
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/35651/bosch-nyon-range-estimates-are-unreliable
"Yeah, it's difficult to estimate the range of an electric bike using a relatively "dumb" meter since it depends on both riding conditions and the charge state of the battery. Riding conditions of course cannot be easily predicted, and, with modern NiMH or Li-Ion batteries there is no way to simply measure battery voltage/current and determine it's charge state -- a device must be employed which "memorizes" the historical charge/discharge pattern and analyzes that."
Yes, Nyon displays estimate arrival time. page 28
But it also depends upon map data. page 55
Importing GPX Track
GPX files contain a number of geographical coordinates (waypoints) whose sequence describes a route. The GPX files can be used for naviga- tion with Nyon. You can create or edit GPX files with the appropriate programs.
You can use the button “Upload GPX file” to import GPX files with a size of up to 5 MB into the online portal. GPX files are transferred to Nyon as soon as Nyon is connected via the smartphone to the internet over WiFi or Blue- tooth®. On its own, Nyon cannot import GPX files directly over a USB link.
The routability of GPX tracks depends on the accuracy of details on OSM maps. The following results are possible depending on the existence of roads and tracks which are navigable:
– GPXTrackcanbefullyrouted
Navigation can be performed as usual, including turn-off instructions and information of the remaining distance and estimated time of arrival. The turn-off instructions can be switched off using the button at the top right.
If Nyon is close to the starting point, navigation can be started imme- diately.
If Nyon is further away from the starting point, the rider can be navi- gated to that point.
– GPXTrackcannotberouted
The route is displayed statically on Nyon and can be travelled by the rider. No navigation details or time calculations can be made.
??? What are trying to say about changed versions?
- Do they mean a route that you have already travelled on once?
– GPXTrackcanbepartiallyrouted
If you use the changed versions, you can convert and save the route into a fully routable track.
If you have the original version, the route is treated as a non-routable track.
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
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Day #2
I figured out that 16” in the backpack is the limiting factor on a bike. I comfortably balanced and safely rode 25 pounds of beer in the backpack. Being able to carry food on my conventional bikes makes the cargo value of the 2019 Trek Powerfly 5 eBike worthless.
Comparing the bikes based on cargo is irrelevant for me because the Powerfly is limited to 30 pounds of cargo for my weight, according to Trek.
The value of my Powerfly now comes from foul-weather utility.
I also like the core workout from hiking 30 pounds of food for 1.5 miles. I will continue walking food home once each week for the physical exercise.
I figured out that 16” in the backpack is the limiting factor on a bike. I comfortably balanced and safely rode 25 pounds of beer in the backpack. Being able to carry food on my conventional bikes makes the cargo value of the 2019 Trek Powerfly 5 eBike worthless.
Comparing the bikes based on cargo is irrelevant for me because the Powerfly is limited to 30 pounds of cargo for my weight, according to Trek.
The value of my Powerfly now comes from foul-weather utility.
- Heat
- snow, wet, muddy, sandy (after heavy mud dries) surfaces
- short daylight hours or available time
- high wind
I also like the core workout from hiking 30 pounds of food for 1.5 miles. I will continue walking food home once each week for the physical exercise.
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Here is an excellent way to test battery economy in Denver -- The Highline Canal Trail
Battery range will be a central issue when comparing conventional and electric bikes. GPX files from Nyon are annotated with Bosch controller information like cadence, human and machine power levels, fitness data, etc... i hope battery status and assistance levels are also annotated in the files.
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/service/range-assistant/
The extent of the eBike experience is determined by battery range. Defining eBike experiences begins with range. So, i start by picking a certain distance, say 25 miles. 25 miles is a moderate bike trip for me.
2.5 miles is an important distance, because only a small percentage of people will commute beyond 2.5 miles. 2.5 miles is also an important distance for me. I need to be able to pedal the eBike without power up a 2% grade for 1.25 miles to Walmart for food shopping.
2.5 miles is also convenient because it is 10% of 25 miles.
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/experience-ebike/stories/bosch-ebikes-battery-blog/
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/service/range-assistant/
The extent of the eBike experience is determined by battery range. Defining eBike experiences begins with range. So, i start by picking a certain distance, say 25 miles. 25 miles is a moderate bike trip for me.
2.5 miles is an important distance, because only a small percentage of people will commute beyond 2.5 miles. 2.5 miles is also an important distance for me. I need to be able to pedal the eBike without power up a 2% grade for 1.25 miles to Walmart for food shopping.
2.5 miles is also convenient because it is 10% of 25 miles.
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/experience-ebike/stories/bosch-ebikes-battery-blog/
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Comparing a car and bike route. I am keen to see how much faster an eBike or regular bike is on the Lee Gulch bike path over six miles. A car only cuts the time by 33%, from 36 to 12 minutes. If I can come close to car speed on a 1.5% grade, that will be quite astonishing.
I should be able to make the trip in under 15 minutes, by maintaining a 20mph average speed. If traffic is congested, i can easily reach the destination faster than a car.
I notice this pattern of long bike paths occurs along gulches in Denver. Lee Gulch in Littleton. Marcy Gulch in Highlands Ranch. The Highline Canal trail seems to outline some of these gulches.
I find Denver is very easy and fast to get around by bike. For example, the 1.5 mile trip to Walmart takes the same time by bike or car from my place.
I should be able to make the trip in under 15 minutes, by maintaining a 20mph average speed. If traffic is congested, i can easily reach the destination faster than a car.
I notice this pattern of long bike paths occurs along gulches in Denver. Lee Gulch in Littleton. Marcy Gulch in Highlands Ranch. The Highline Canal trail seems to outline some of these gulches.
I find Denver is very easy and fast to get around by bike. For example, the 1.5 mile trip to Walmart takes the same time by bike or car from my place.
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C470 Bikeway estimate is 53 miles. I imagined half that mileage. Perhaps, my fear level is elevated?
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/service/range-assistant/
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/experience-ebike/stories/bosch-ebikes-battery-blog/
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https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/service/range-assistant/
https://www.bosch-ebike.com/us/experience-ebike/stories/bosch-ebikes-battery-blog/
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Apple solution for geocoding a picture onto a map may be cumbersome or confusing with the Preview and Maps apps. I am disappointed with Apple for regressing so much.
Using a cell phone to compare the eBike battery economy of different bikes is particularly useful when buying a new eBike. Have you ever reset a car trip odometer to calculate MPG after filling a tank? Same technique for a battery. Cell phone pictures of the bike computer head unit becomes the trip odometer.
Seems like some Mac apps exist to process GPX files.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/gpx-viewer/id920631838?mt=12
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/gpx-editor/id924782627?mt=12
I cannot believe Apple has regressed this far. I took a screen shot of Maps and pasted the picture next to the map pin. The picture could be of the eBike head unit displaying battery status or any other information.
http://osxdaily.com/2015/05/08/view-exact-location-photo-taken-preview-mac/
Using a cell phone to compare the eBike battery economy of different bikes is particularly useful when buying a new eBike. Have you ever reset a car trip odometer to calculate MPG after filling a tank? Same technique for a battery. Cell phone pictures of the bike computer head unit becomes the trip odometer.
Seems like some Mac apps exist to process GPX files.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/gpx-viewer/id920631838?mt=12
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/gpx-editor/id924782627?mt=12
I cannot believe Apple has regressed this far. I took a screen shot of Maps and pasted the picture next to the map pin. The picture could be of the eBike head unit displaying battery status or any other information.
http://osxdaily.com/2015/05/08/view-exact-location-photo-taken-preview-mac/
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I finally can define Experience #1: Speed. The goal is to arrive at the destination faster than a car. Since the Lee Gulch bike path has a slight (1.5%) grade, we have an uphill and downhill experience. Let's list some of the parts of Experience #1:
- Uphill vs. Downhill 1.5% grade.
- What is the average speed difference between an eBike and conventional bike?
- What effect does start/stop have on average speed?
- S. Prince St & Lower Ridgewood Park
- S. Windermere & Ashbaugh Park
- S. Elati St. near Carbone Park
- Jamieson & Broadway intersection
- E. Mineral Ave. & Puma Park
- E. Phillips & S. Clarkson St.
- Which assistance level is needed to achieve desired speed?
- How much battery power is required?
- What effect does drop vs. flat handlebars have?
- What is maximum speed achieved?
- How far can the eBike be pedalled without power assistance?
- Temperature.
- Ideal conditions*
Flat terrain, approx. 15 km/h, no headwind, approx. 20 °C [68F] outside temperature, low rolling resistance, optimal gear shifting, weight without eBike < 70 kg, no additional connected components, e.g. lights. - Difficult conditions*
Hilly terrain, approx. 25 km/h (Speed: 30 km/h), headwind, < 10 °C [50F] outside temperature, high rolling resistance, unfavorable gear shifting, weight without eBike > 85 kg, additional connected components, e.g. lights.
The parameters that affect eBike performance are listed in the following screenshot:
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