What is a fair way to compare an Ebike to a conventional bike? An eBike for an Amateur Cyclist.

[BikeMike]

If you are into building eBikes, here are the components to build a Maserati Trofeo (Trophy).

I contacted VeloFix to see if they can build one for me. I do not have the skill or desire to build a bike.

If you are like me, Accell Group defines this market as the "Amateur Cyclist", which pretty much defines me.

View attachment 24860
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

http://www.lightcarbon.com/full-carbon-road-disc-ebike-frameset-with-flat-mount-brake_p81.html

View attachment 24859

The Velofix person, Travis, said he would have no problem building the bike. Dealing with China is a little off-putting, but perhaps I have nothing to fear.


A Red Bull article: 10 E-road bikes that are almost too good to be true. Here's how I perceive them.

The Raleigh Mustang Comp Electric comes closest, because it is a cyclocross style bike. Cyclocross is good for bike paths with melting snow. However, the battery looks ugly and is oversized. Perhaps, Shimano can develop a battery that fits in the downtube, soon? Moreover, i only want to motor to run at critical times, to conserve the small battery capacity. The Bafang M800 holds a significant advantage over the Shimano STEPS in this regard. Running the motor on the flats or downhill is unnecessary.

Providing acceleration power from zero at an intersection is very welcome. Accelerating quickly from zero to 15mph is one of the most important cycling skills, IMHO. I would especially like to accelerate in just a single gear, e.g., fifth gear. Shifting through five gears is a few seconds is distracting in heavy traffic. Pushing a bike from fifth gear is too slow at an intersection.

1. Gtech eBike Sport -
   1. I like the belt for sloppy conditions
   2. I want disc brakes for strong braking in wet conditions
2. Pinnacle Lithium Ion 2018
   1. The battery is ugly and too big
   2. I like the Shimano STEPS motor, which is still on the heavy side
3. Whyte Highgate Compact
   1. Same as Pinnacle
4. Raleigh Mustang Comp Electric
   1. Raleigh is owned by Accell Group, which owns the Diavelo/Maserati Trofeo eBike
   2. The motor and battery are oversized.
   3. The ideal choice for long days of touring,
   4. the Mustang’s tailored gravel frame offers a relaxed riding position without compromising on speed or agility.
   5. Featuring SRAM gearing,
   6. 42mm tyres and
   7. a battery range of nearly 80 miles,
   8. the Mustang is an excellent choice if you’re looking for a road bike capable of going off grid every once in a while.
5. Giant Road E+1 Pro
   1. Overkill - SyncDrive Yamaha motor and a moderately light 500Wh lithium ion battery
6. Coboc One Soho
   1. single speed does not work in hills
7. Bianchi Impulso E-Road
   1. Never heard of: The Polini EP3 motor
      1. is one of the least bulky on the market and
      2. the battery, which is kept well hidden inside the down tube,
      3. is one of the longest lasting on our list with a range of nearly 125 miles.
8. BMC Alpenchallenge AMP Sport
   1. Ugly, oversized battery
   2. A full carbon frame,
   3. Shimano STEPS system
9. Cube Agree Hybrid C:62 SL Disc
   1. Fazua drive unit - Unproven startup from Germany
   2. the motor and battery are self-contained and can be fully removed,
   3. taking the already light 13.8kg closer to your standard road bike weight.
   4. full carbon frame,
   5. a Shimano Ultegra groupset and
   6. hydraulic disc brakes.
10. Focus Paralane²
    1. Fazua drive unit - Unproven startup from Germany
    2. carbon frame and weighing under 13kg,
    3. the fully removable Fazua motor and battery
    4. easily allow the Focus to be turned into a standard road bike.

Raleigh Mustang Comp Electric

 

[BikeMike]

I bold-faced the reasons why the Bafang M800 is significant and a better choice than the ten bikes listed in the previous post.

http://www.eurobike-show.com/eb-en/press/exhibitors-releases-detail.php?ListeID=3011&sMode=detail

The form factor of this new mini-size motor creates new and significant design opportunities for bike brands that are developing e-road racing style bikes, including gravel and cyclocross concepts.

Functionality is key, paired with quiet and smooth operation controlled by dual torque and speed sensors. The motor offers single and double chainring compatibility (chain wheel size 44T or 34/50T), and while it can easily be set to the EU legal limit of 25 km/h, with its maximum speed of 45 km/h the system is also capable of use on speed pedelecs.

"We put a lot of effort into developing this compact drive train system. Currently one of the lightest and smallest systems in the market we see many more opportunities for other bicycle categories as well," said Sunny He, one of Bafang’s founders and CMO. "It is a real honor to celebrate the creativity and technical prowess applied by our engineers and cooperation partners for both these Award nominations."

One of the key advantages of the new drive unit is its low weight, at less than 4,4 kg, but with a 200 W rated output power and a max torque of 55 Nm, including a 200 Wh inTube battery, display and remote shifters.

The pedaling assist level can be set in five steps controlled by one or two satellite shifter pods, which can be individually placed on the drop handlebar. The 2.2 inch TFT color display offers up to ten settings. Since an e-road bike will very quickly exceed the 25 km/h (EU) legal motor assist speed threshold, the drive unit has been tuned to perform optimally when starting off and accelerating, as well as on short sprints and steep climbs. For the US and other regions, the speed limit can be set at 32 km/h or 45 km/h instead.

But whatever the exact limit, most important is that when the limit is reached, the drivetrain unit runs almost resistance free. Thus the rider’s own pedaling effort above the limit speed is not affected. This will typically be when riders are pedaling in the upper 20s to mid-30s km/h speed range.

The battery pack, with a capacity of 200 Wh, is mainly used only on ascents and when starting/accelerating within the speed limit, this battery capacity will be more than sufficient even for longer trips (50 to 150 km or more).

Fitting an assist motor to a road bike makes perfect sense if you want to keep up higher speed on climbs, to enjoy quick acceleration or to keep your heart rate outside its ‘red’ zone. And just like all electric bikes, it’s a great way to allow both fit and less fit riders to enjoy cycling together at the same pace.

Bafang sees a growing number of performance-oriented consumers, and therefore also manufacturers, who will appreciate these advantages, especially for the fast-growing categories of gravel and cyclocross bikes.

 

[BikeMike]

Finally, I can get to the main point: defining the desired cycling experience. The biggest disconnect in the bicycle purchasing experience is translating some abstract geometry and bike specifications into a feel. I have never been able to read a bike specification to get a sense for how the bike rides. Let's define experiences on a scale from -3 to +3, where 0 is neutral. We will associate adjective pairs with the numbers. In the end, we will be able to clearly evaluate and compare electric and conventional bikes.

I seek a foul-weather and foul-mood bike. Foul-weather defined as 25F to 45F temperatures and/or NW winds 15 to 25 mph. A cyclocross bike is well suited to foul-weather conditions, because the tires are wider than traditional road bike tires. The Bafang M800 motor and battery has many characteristics that make it an ideal foul-weather system for a "Amateur Cyclist".

A Maserati Treofeo like eBike does not require a direct comparison with a conventional bike. This bike is a true hybrid that can stand on its own merits either an eBike or a conventional bike.

Acceleration from 0 to 15 mph - Mostly for crossing big intersections in the middle gear on the first chainring.

• Slowest -3
• Slower -2
• Slow -1
• Average 0
• Fast +1
• Faster +2
• X Fastest +3

Weight and Shape of Motor (2.3 kg) and Battery (2 kg)

• Heaviest -3 (11 kg)
• Heavier -2
• Heavy -1
• Average 0
• Light +1
• Lighter +2
• X Lightest +3 (5 kg)

Motor: MM G530.200 2.3 kg
Battery: BT F05.200 < 2kg

Resistance From Electrical System Without Motor Power - I want to reach conventional bike speeds, without hitting a speed wall.

• Highest -3
• Higher -2
• High -1
• Average 0
• Low +1
• Lower +2
• X Lowest +3

12v Front and Rear light system - I ride through at least five tunnels and/or bridge underpasses. The C470 tunnel is 425 feet long. I cannot see mud or ice at the other end of the tunnel. I need a very powerful light with high and low beams. I want a rear light to alert other riders in the tunnel of my presence.

• Darkest -3
• Darker -2
• Dark -1
• Average 0
• Bright +1
• Brighter +2
• X Brightest +3

Stand-up Pedaling Assist - I stand up at least once per uphill mile. Stand-up pedaling slows me down and wears me out. Standing up avoids downshifting gears. I climb the hill faster, but I am out of breath and weak when I reach the top of the hill. Recovery usually takes a few minutes, so my speed is very slow, e.g., ~10mph. One torque sensor for each pedal might be an advantage in this situation.

• Weakest -3
• Weaker -2
• Weak -1
• Average 0
• Strong +1
• Stronger +2
• X Strongest +3

Miserly Battery Consumption - I only want the motor to deliver power assist at critical moments. I want the motor to disappear on the flats and downhill sections, so I can travel long distances. I want strong assist at the critical moments. For the most part, I want the electrical system to blend in with the bike.

• Heaviest -3
• Heavier -2
• Heavy -1
• Average 0
• Light +1
• Lighter +2
• Lightest +3

Cold Temperature Range - My biggest fear is an undervoltage that shuts down the engine from electrical resistance at cold temperatures.

• Hottest -3
• Hotter -2
• Hot -1
• Room Temperature 0
• Cold +1
• X Colder +2
• Coldest +3

Distance - 60 miles per battery charge is adequate

• Shortest -3
• Shorter -2
• Short -1
• Average 0
• Long +1
• X Longer +2
• Longest +3

Cost - I do not expect low cost or want to sacrifice quality. Reliability is important.

• Highest -3
• X Higher -2
• High -1
• Average 0
• Low -1
• Lower -2
• Lowest -3

Speed - I do not want high speeds because they drain the battery

• Lowest -3
• X Lower -2
• Low -1
• Average 0
• High -1
• Higher -2
• Highest -3

Traction +2 - Wet or muddy conditions require wider tires. Also power assistance needs to be applied in a gradual manner to avoid sliding out. Inner rim width is main influence on contact patch shape.

Braking Power +2 - Wet conditions need larger hydraulic disc brakes (180mm)

Nible Steering +2

Tubeless Tires +3 - flat tires in cold weather is a total drag

Gear Ratio +3 - Need 400% on a double chain ring

Aerodynamics +3 - Need dropbars to reach 35mph easily

Aesthetics +2 - A bike should look beautiful, not like some car parts were glommed onto the frame.

Configuring Torque Curve from cell phone +3 - I want a UI to specify parameter values for when and how much power assistance should be applied

Boost Axle +1 - A good rider can put out 800 watts. The total acceleration force may be very high.

Bluetooth Motor and Battery Management System +3 - Need to know when to avoid using due to weather conditions. Need health status of every battery cell. Need to update firmware via internet.

Removeable Battery - Need to bring battery inside for charging.

 

[BikeMike]

Now we have a framework to compare two bikes. We can compare two ultra light electric road bikes, or conventional bikes.

Since the Maserati Trefeo is a true hybrid road bike, let's compare the Raleigh Mustang Comp Electric. We might also compare the Trefeo against a high performance road bike, but that is less useful at the moment.

Let's associate symbols with the numbers:

• -3
• -2
• -1
• 
  
• 0
• 
  
• +1
• +2
• +3

1. No Resistance From Electrical System
   1. Desired: +3
   2. I want to reach conventional bike speeds, without hitting a speed wall.
2. Stand-up Pedaling Assist
   1. Desired: +3
   2. I stand up at least once per uphill mile. Stand-up pedaling slows me down and wears me out. Standing up avoids downshifting gears. I climb the hill faster, but I am out of breath and weak when I reach the top of the hill. Recovery usually takes a few minutes, so my speed is very slow, e.g., ~10mph.
   3. One torque sensor for each pedal might be an advantage in this situation.
3. Acceleration from 0 to 15 mph
   1. Desired: +3
   2. Mostly for crossing big intersections in the middle gear on the first chainring.
   3. Two or more speed sensors for accurate and sensitive acceleration measurements (or accelerometer)
4. Speed
   1. Desired: -2
   2. I do not want high speeds because they drain the battery
5. Configuring Power/Torque Curve from cell phone in a user friendly way
   1. Desired +2
   2. I want a UI to specify parameter values for when and how much power assistance should be applied
6. Weight and Shape of Motor (2.3 kg) and Battery (2 kg)
   1. Desired: +3
7. Electrical System designed for carbon frames +3
   1. Aluminum is too heavy and does not flex to absorb shocks
8. Miserly Battery Consumption
   1. Desired: +3
   2. I only want the motor to deliver power assist at critical moments. I want the motor to disappear on the flats and downhill sections, so I can travel long distances. I want strong assist at the critical moments. For the most part, I want the electrical system to blend in with the bike.
9. Bluetooth Motor and Battery Management System
   1. Desired: +3
   2. Need to know when to avoid using due to weather conditions.
   3. Need health status of every battery cell.
   4. Need to update firmware via internet.
   5. Need to run diagnostics against battery to know how risky a cold weather ride is.
10. Fighting Strong Winds (opposite of standing up, I get into dropbars, even at slow speeds)
11. 12v Front and Rear light system
    1. Desired: +3
    2. I ride through at least five tunnels and/or bridge underpasses. The C470 tunnel is 425 feet long. I cannot see mud or ice at the other end of the tunnel. I need a very powerful light with high and low beams. I want a rear light to alert other riders in the tunnel of my presence.
12. Cold Temperature Range
    1. Desired: +2
    2. My biggest fear is an undervoltage that shuts down the engine from electrical resistance at cold temperatures.
13. Distance
    1. Desired: +2
    2. 60 miles per battery charge is adequate
14. Cost
    1. Desired: -2
    2. I do not expect low cost or want to sacrifice quality. Reliability is important.
15. Traction
    1. Desired: +2
    2. Wet or muddy conditions require wider tires. Also power assistance needs to be applied in a gradual manner to avoid sliding out. Inner rim width is main influence on contact patch shape.
16. Braking Power
    1. Desired: +2
    2. Wet conditions need larger hydraulic disc brakes (180mm)
17. Nible Steering
    1. Desired: +2
18. Tubeless Tires
    1. Desired: +3
    2. Flat tires in cold weather is a total drag
19. Gear Ratio
    1. Desired: +3
    2. Need 400% on a double chain ring
20. Aerodynamics
    1. Desired: +3
    2. Need dropbars to reach 35mph easily. Motor and battery cannot introduce drag.
21. Aesthetics
    1. Desired: +2
    2. A bike should look beautiful, not like some car parts were glommed onto the frame.
22. Boost Axle
    1. Desired: +1
    2. A good rider can put out 800 watts. The total acceleration force may be very high.
23. Removeable Battery
    1. Desired: +3
    2. Need to bring battery inside for charging.

 

[BikeMike]

• Here's how I would like power assist levels to be configured. Configuring torque/power curve from cell phone in a user friendly and non-technical way.

Let's associate symbols with the numbers:

• -3
• -2
• -1
• 
  
• 0
• 
  
• +1
• +2
• +3

Power Assist Level Profiles defined in a user friendly and beneficial way:

1. Stand-up Pedaling Assist
2. Acceleration from 0 to 15 mph
3. Speed
4. Miserly Battery Consumption
5. Distance
6. Fighting Strong Winds (opposite of standing up, I get into dropbars, even at slow speeds)

Weight, Shape and Gearing of Motor (2.3 kg) and Weight and Shape of Battery (2 kg)

• vs. Shimano STEPS 6000 5.8kg

​

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

http://www.lightcarbon.com/full-carbon-road-disc-ebike-frameset-with-flat-mount-brake_p81.html

​

 

[BikeMike]

I contacted VeloFix, Evelo and LunaCycles to see if they have any interest in building the bike. I am sure many other eBike manufacturers have experience with Bafang motors. Just no other companies come immediately to mind.

Velofix can definetly build the bike. I just do not know anything about the bike frame.

Evelo is considering the M800 motor, but has no immediate plans for an M800 bike.

 

[BikeMike]

I now realize another reason why "Amateur Cyclists" have a hard time relating eBikes. The power assist levels make no sense to an experienced cyclist. Power assist levels need to be communicated to advanced cyclists in terms of riding style. Presenting power assist levels in engineering terms to traditional cyclists is meaningless.

Standing up to accelerate and getting low in the drop bars to avoid wind are riding styles that traditional cyclists can relate to. The benefits are immediately clear. Conventional ways of defining and communicating power assist levels are a sure way to end any interest in an eBike. Silly.

More conspicuous is the protuding battery and oversized chain ring/bottom bracket. They just look plain ugly and feel too heavy.