Way to force clutch/gears out of geared hub motor

[indianajo]

So I wore out the Mac12t clutch in July, installed a 750 w generic hub in August, burnt the winding on the second trip. Nobody in USA has a Mac12t 48 v 1000w and 750 w is not good enough for my safer route to summer camp. I had 6 bafang 350 watt motors from Uber jump fleet, burnt one in 2022 on my safe route with 77 hills. So I moved over to riding berm of 60 mph Ste hwy 62 and 3, flatter, and changed controller from 25 amps to 10 amps to not burn up the bafangs I have already. Mac will sell me 8 motors, but not one. There is a US seller of 1000 w geared hub electric-bikes.com but he cancelled my Mac12t order 5/30/18 because we have hills in So Indiana and would not reactivate my email address in July.
On 2nd trip, bafang clutch started slipping. Okay I have 5 more bafang 350 w, except one clutch was slipping in 2022. Found the bafang motor with the shorted winding. Case off, no problem. Clutch out of motor I rode home Monday, no problem. But clutch is stuck in burnt winding motor.
Spent afternoon trying to force clutch out with screwdrivers, turning between spur gear and clutch core. There was a 2 mm gap. Could not get screwdrivers to turn, even with vise-grip plier.
Watched the news at dinner, planning to make a 2 mm thick chisel by grinding down a bolt. Eureka! at 7 PM realized allen wrenches are harder than ****, have a ball end, an angled stick to turn them with a box wrench, and various sizes. pounded 2 mm allen wrench in gap, twisted 3 places, clutch moved .005"! Forced in 2.5 mm wrench, then 3 mm wrench, then 5/32" wrench, then 4 mm wrench, then 3/16" wrench, then 5 mm wrench, then 1/4" wrench. Stuck there, next size is 8mm and 5/16", too big to force in. Dark anyway. May be able to find some other tool to push clutch out tomorrow.
Reason I did not use a 3 jaw puller, clutch is a tin tuna can only 6 mm thick, won't stand such puller forcing on the edges. Also my 3 jaw puller was stolen 9/20/20 along with $25000 other tools.

 

[gromike]

Have you ever thought about going to a high amp direct-drive hub motor. Something like the 1500w Leafbike motor. If you know your top motorized speed, and steepest hills, then you can figure the motor kv and the voltage needed. People compensate for hills with high amps, and compensate for the requisite related motor heat with a robust motor, ferrofluid, and maybe hubsinks. And there is the Grin motor calculator to figure it all out.
Batteries and controllers are a whole other issue.

 

[indianajo]

I ride 80% unpowered. Summer camp is 27-30 miles, with 60 lb groceries on the uphill leg. I had a 1000 w DD hub, and hated it. It dragged unpowered like being in 2 higher sprockets than I really was. TOO MUCH EXERCISE!!!!!!!!! It still sits in the garage, unloved. Geared hubs don't drag unpowered. Besides, 840 wh zeroes the controller (low voltage) on one of the 12% grades near the end. I'd need 2100 wh to run a 1500 w motor over that route. Another 12 lb I don't need. I take the battery off October-May to avoid freezing and still ride 24 miles per week unpowered. Grocery, home store, charity resale shop, church, concerts. Dragging that DD motor around those 6 months would be a ****.
If I ever figure out how to work Alibaba, I'm going to buy the 8 mac12t's for $2000. Order blocked last week because I don't have a smart phone.

 

[gromike]

There are controllers that put a small amount of power into the motor and it eliminates the cogging resistance of a direct-drive motor. On my Grin equipped bike, at 0 PAS the motor is fed 1w. It pedals like a regular, albeit heavy, bicycle.

 

[Chargeride]

Smaller wheel is the way forward, Im running 45A into Bafang 750 in a twenty inch wheel, climbing mountain tracks.
Motor barely warm to the touch.

 

[PCeBiker]

There are controllers that put a small amount of power into the motor and it eliminates the cogging resistance of a direct-drive motor. On my Grin equipped bike, at 0 PAS the motor is fed 1w. It pedals like a regular, albeit heavy, bicycle.

My KT controller does that for my geared hub motor.

It uses about 23 Watts to rotate the motor.
The controller compares the speed sensor data to the hal sensor data to know how much power to give the motor to keep it spinning.

@m@Robertson greased his planetary gears and his KT display was showing ~60 Watts, so he realized he used too much grease and it was causing resistance.


My new Voltbike does it too, but the display is a dummy gauge and the Watt meter shows 0 Watts.

 

[indianajo]

Smaller wheel is the way forward, Im running 45A into Bafang 750 in a twenty inch wheel, climbing mountain tracks.
Motor barely warm to the touch.

I value my tongue too much to ride 20" tires. Besides potholes that get covered in the rain, the city views driveways that have a 6 cm ledge as a perfect job.
The bore of the non-slipping clutch was .001" too small compared to the 2 shafts. The key of the non-shorted winding plate was .0015" too big. US car plants in the 50's used to have a goon squad with oak hammers to bash parts together. China has no oak trees. Wonder what Bafang used to bash this clutch plate in? And bafang is the name brand motor.
2 hours with aluminum oxide cloth and a file, the parts all fit nicely.

 

[m@Robertson]

It uses about 23 Watts to rotate the motor.
@m@Robertson greased his planetary gears and his KT display was showing ~60 Watts, so he realized he used too much grease and it was causing resistance.

Actually it wasn't the grease. I tweaked the motor somehow during reassembly. It didn't go together well. I fixed it by taking it apart and carefully sliding it back together again. You can also have brake rotor rubbing and this contributes to a similar problem.

And I'm not sure you are correct on the minimum power output circumstances. Where I was seeing the varying minimum output was when I was riding a 2wd bike, and the OTHER motor had pushed the bike up to a speed that made the hub motor exceed its rated rpms. When that happens, power starts getting pulled back. Where it drops to while under full PAS5 or full throttle tells you how free-spinning your motor is. On my 20" Bullitts, thats around 20-23 mph, and varies between my two bikes as both G020 motors are wound with different turn counts. On a G060 with fat tires (about a 29" diameter wheel) that number is about 34 mph, but I seldom see that as the bike is geared to be pedalable only up to around 32 mph. I don't see one of those motors pull back until I get a really strong tailwind.

There is a long downhill where I reach a sustained 30 mph. I might try attaching a spare LCD3 to see if the motor really does output watts when it is completely off (turned on but freely rotating). I have to find one of them first

 

[PCeBiker]

There is a long downhill where I reach a sustained 30 mph. I might try attaching a spare LCD3 to see if the motor really does output watts when it is completely off (turned on but freely rotating). I have to find one of them first

There is almost NO Hills around me, and I only noticed the power draw once while coasting down hill.
(That's when it was about 23 Watts.)

The ammeter/watt meter has built in damping and as a test, I rode full throttle up a hill and hit the brake at the top, stopping the motor.
It took almost 10 seconds for the Watt meter to finally reach 0 Watts.

So, when I finally found a long enough downhill, I knew that I had to coast for about 10 seconds to get an accurate reading on my Watt meter.

 

[spokewrench]

I ride 80% unpowered. Summer camp is 27-30 miles, with 60 lb groceries on the uphill leg. I had a 1000 w DD hub, and hated it. It dragged unpowered like being in 2 higher sprockets than I really was. TOO MUCH EXERCISE!!!!!!!!! It still sits in the garage, unloved. Geared hubs don't drag unpowered. Besides, 840 wh zeroes the controller (low voltage) on one of the 12% grades near the end. I'd need 2100 wh to run a 1500 w motor over that route. Another 12 lb I don't need. I take the battery off October-May to avoid freezing and still ride 24 miles per week unpowered. Grocery, home store, charity resale shop, church, concerts. Dragging that DD motor around those 6 months would be a ****.

I have a bike with a 500 W DD motor that gives 40% more torque than another bike with a 750 W geared motor. Torque depends on the way a motor is wound. That's why the DD motor is heavier than the geared one.

Both bikes I have now are DD. I pedal unpowered most of the time and don't feel drag. If I'm moving a bike on foot, both have a little motor noise and drag going back but none going forward. These DD motors must have some sort of clutch or freewheel.