Wave E-bike 499$ (another Storm/Indiegogo)

[pxpaulx]

I literally just saw that! I stand corrected. I hope they deliver on everything, all in all it is an excellent offering for the price if they can deliver! I like that they have come here to discuss the bike as well, definitely lends credibility in my eyes for then to venture onto a hobbyist forum and answer questions directly.

 

[AaronB]

Suddenly they have $60,000 more and have met their goal.

I literally just saw that! I stand corrected. I hope they deliver on everything, all in all it is an excellent offering for the price if they can deliver! I like that they have come here to discuss the bike as well, definitely lends credibility in my eyes for then to venture onto a hobbyist forum and answer questions directly.

These successful crowd funding campaigns seem to depend on "social proof", which looks like we got yesterday! And thanks to anyone who bought a bike or helped spread the word. I love being part of the actual conversations with people who are passionate about electric bikes, so please shoot me a PM or just ask right here on the thread if you guys have any questions. We are definitely excited about this opportunity to get such an affordable bike into the hands (and feet) of so many people.

I would absolutely love to add gears to the bike, but our first goal was seeing if people were excited enough about a super low priced single speed bike to buy one. Next is figuring out what more people want. Are 3 gears in the front pointless? Or would people value that? Are 3 gears in the rear enough? Or would people only value 6 or 7 rear gears? I want to make sure I get enough insight from everyone, which is why the Internet and this forum is so awesome to get such quick feedback!

 

[Matthew Kreger]

Move the motor to the front wheel (or better yet, the crank) and put 8 gears in the rear hub with belt-drive!

To beat a horse I already killed on the campaign comments, make puncture resistant tires and slimed tubes an available upgrade. Taking the back wheel off this thing to repair a flat in the wild won't be particularly easy, even if you put a quick connect for the wires and a QR hub on it.

Most importantly, make sure it has water-bottle braze-ons if you want a good review on EBR from Court.

 

[George S.]

The campaign has been really successful over the past week. Really successful. They were beating up on the Wave over at the Sondo site. Kinda funny, really.

I'd ask them to deliver what they promised and leave it at that. If you get a decent bike at that price, everyone wins. If you get the bike and it does what they say, that's pretty much a home run. That price is really out there.

There are 'smart' things to do about flats. High end tires, liners, thick tubes. Slime is controversial. You can carry little spray cans of sealant, and try it if you get a flat.

 

[George S.]

Wave is now offering a second battery for $235. This is a 48v and 12 AH battery. That's a big battery, and that's a low price. They say they are using Samsung cells, which is a plus. How do they do it?

Basically, if you break down the 12AH number, it means they are using 5 sets of cells (13 in series), because that's where the capacities are available. So 5 times x = 12, and x is 2.4, so it should be a 2400mah battery cell. The Samsung cells that match this profile are the Samsung icr18650-24e 2400mah. For some reason, these cells are very cheap, like maybe $1.40 per cell on Alibaba. They need about 65, depending on the real voltage they are using, but at $1.40 per cell, it's under $100 for the cells. Even with a reasonable price for assembly and the case, it's doable.

Most manufacturers sell a pack like this for $700. Most kit companies will let you have one for roughly the same money, cheaper if shipped from Asia, but the shipping will kill you if they go hazmat.

The question then becomes "Will this battery pack work and hold up?". If it does, well, the ebike industry needs to rethink the whole battery pack thing.

If this battery is any good, and the same thing can be said for the Sondo, and the RadRover, both of which specify some kind of Samsung cell, it's more significant than any of the bikes. There are now three campaigns with Samsung cells in a pack that costs about 1/3 of industry produced packs. I guess I wonder why no one doesn't just offer the packs. Should I buy a Wave and 10 extra packs? Sell them on Ebay?

Here's hoping this works out.

 

[flymeaway]

They say they are using Samsung cells, which is a plus. How do they do it?

Hi George,

Battery claims out of China should be taken with a grain of salt....bottom line, a certified high quality Lithium battery pack claiming (Samsung or A123 premium cells) of any sizeable capacity sells for much more than $235. LOL...maybe there should be a crowd funded battery?

Court J.

 

[Matthew Kreger]

Clearly these packs have been sold for much more up to now. The question is: if they ever were, are those prices still justified? If not (and it sounds like that may well be the case), who is paying all that markup and should be revolting? E-bike manufacturers? E-bike dealers? Consumers? Clearly there are lots of customers who are showing up where prices are lower. And I guarantee there are many more who would happily buy an e-bike from their LBS but aren't interested in ordering online and putting it together. Problem is, you can't even buy a standard bike at an LBS for under $400. The business model isn't going to support it.

 

[opimax]

I have some dead Stromer batteries that need some new cells

 

[flymeaway]

Clearly these packs have been sold for much more up to now.

Counterfeiting and mislabeling are common in China. Who's going to tear down a battery pack to verify the authenticity of the batteries? I have researched using A123 batteries to build ebike packs and they are very expensive if you use certified tested batteries. You can also find very inexpensive A123 cells for sale on Ebay, Alibaba and other sites, but they are counterfeits, or 2nds that don't meet the manufacture specifications. Don't know about the Samsung cells but hey...maybe they are the certified cells made in the Samsung factory? If so, that is a very good price.

Court J.

 

[Matthew Kreger]

I went to my LBS a couple of months ago and test rode an IZIP E3 Zuma (I think that was the model). Throttle was on/off not variable (horrible!), and it was generally an unimpressive ride to me. Fit and finish, paint, etc. on my $400 Dillenger Cheetah are every bit as good as on the IZIP, possibly better. Based on that experience I fully expect the $700 Wave to be a far superior bike to the IZIP which costs three times as much. Does IZIP source better batteries? Maybe. Am I going to take their (or your) word for it? Nope. There is clearly risk with the CSF model, especially with Indiegogo having no interest in policing scammers, but as far as product goes I don't think you can convince me anything China-built coming from the established manufacturers is superior (or different for that matter).

 

[stevenast]

Reading this whole thread, I will bet that your best case scenario is that you get a cheapy throwaway ebike, like buying a Huffy at Walmart. It might even work well, at first, but soon will be relegated to the garage or local landfill.

I agree with @JRA that there will always be a place in the market for quality bikes, that are supported with quality service, and will last for years to come.

More to the point, that type of product will prove to be a better value in the long run.

 

[stevenast]

I went to my LBS a couple of months ago and test rode an IZIP E3 Zuma (I think that was the model). Throttle was on/off not variable (horrible!), and it was generally an unimpressive ride to me. Fit and finish, paint, etc. on my $400 Dillenger Cheetah are every bit as good as on the IZIP, possibly better. Based on that experience I fully expect the $700 Wave to be a far superior bike to the IZIP which costs three times as much. Does IZIP source better batteries? Maybe. Am I going to take their (or your) word for it? Nope. There is clearly risk with the CSF model, especially with Indiegogo having no interest in policing scammers, but as far as product goes I don't think you can convince me anything China-built coming from the established manufacturers is superior (or different for that matter).

Good point on Izip quality issues, I have noticed the same. But, try one of the German/Swiss brands! And, don't pay retail!

(Add-on Edit: another problem with ebikes that you buy locally is poor assembly quality. That's because some of the local shops are just there to push units out the door, they aren't really a bike shop at all, and their mechanics are often part-time or of questionable skill level.

A quality operation like Lenny's is an exception, of course.

 

[pxpaulx]

Hi George,

Battery claims out of China should be taken with a grain of salt....bottom line, a certified high quality Lithium battery pack claiming (Samsung or A123 premium cells) of any sizeable capacity sells for much more than $235. LOL...maybe there should be a crowd funded battery?

Court J.

You have to believe at least one contributor is going to open up the pack and verify whether samsung cells are present. Assuming that is the case, would you still not believe they are the correct cell type the buyers are being told they are being sold? I suppose actual performance will be the true indicator then?

 

[flymeaway]

I suppose actual performance will be the true indicator then?

That would be the definitive case.

Court J.

 

[George S.]

Hi George,

Battery claims out of China should be taken with a grain of salt....bottom line, a certified high quality Lithium battery pack claiming (Samsung or A123 premium cells) of any sizeable capacity sells for much more than $235. LOL...maybe there should be a crowd funded battery?

Court J.

Court,

This is the battery 'pack' I put together last night to test out the MAC when it shows up. It cost me $40, so I don't know why other vendors can't match my price. It's actually 3AH and 37 volts, so a bit small. I tested it on my Prodeco X3 for a bit, with my wattmeter attached. Interesting, knowing that stuff.

I will probably have to find a real battery. What you did 'wins' on price, but that bulk would be unmanageable for me. I honestly don't know what a decent, not great, battery pack might cost. My thinking would be if I can go a dollar a ride, it would be fine.

If I could build a pack and be able to fix it? I love the way the 'hobby' lipos are completely accessible. You know what every cell is doing, and it's easy to charge from 12v. I want that NTS frame where I just plug the cells in.

If one of the IGG folks wants to tell use their side of the battery story, I think there are interested people.

 

[J.R.]

New article about the Wave on Clapway: "Never Pedal Again With The Wave eBike". The title is a bit of a stretch! It's a puff-piece, not ground breaking stuff, but they are getting some traction with the online press. Thought supporters here may be interested. Shame Wave couldn't get Clapway a photo without that slanted battery rack

 

[stevenast]

Did you know they are crowdfunding a process to turn lead into gold? IM me for investment information!

Also, I recently got my extraterrestrial real estate license, and I'm selling 40 acre parcels on the moon. Call me for more information!

 

[SLD]

Will do. I'll let you know if they reply. Thanks!

Hi there,

So, I did hear back from the Aaron, the Wave guy on the motor and battery issues. I've noticed he is also engaging the community on here as well, which I think is great. Actually he wrote me a while back but I haven't had time to follow up here until now. He did give me names of potential battery and motor manufacturers, but asked that I don't share them for business reasons and the fact that they are not finalized yet, which I want to respect. I did look up the companies and they seem to get decent reviews but, full disclosure, I really am not qualified to evaluate these sorts of things. I'm totally new to the electric bike world and this would be my first. He did say the battery used comes with Samsung cells inside and is 2000mah.

I've missed the 499.00 level, so at this point if I purchased it would be $549 + $199 shipping (unless that do a local pick-up option, I'm in LA). If they make the 500K funding they say they will offer a 6 speed Shimano gear option for $35, which I would go for. That would bring the total to $783. I guess taxes would be in there too, so say $800.

What do you folks think at this point? Is this a something that seems worth the risk?

 

[pxpaulx]

even though i am already in with the radrover bike, if they get close enough to getting the 6 speed option before the 549 disappears, i might jump on board this one too. the upgraded battery, disc brakes, 6 speed and chrome paint are all things i would add, which would make it a 900 bike. i had better get my neo xtrem up for sale stat!

 

[George S.]

Aaron B said that Court might review the bike. That would be the most useful information. The 2,000 mah cells are older technology, and it looks like he is using 60 cells per pack, 20 more than the higher price, higher capacity cells require. But that's how you get to his price point. So that is adding some weight to the back. Court doesn't like rear hubs and rear batteries.

I'm not sure why the campaign is stressing speed so much. In the long video proving the 28 mile range, they are moving pretty fast relative to what is around them. At one point someone seems to throw a basketball at the rider, which tilts the camera for a while afterwards. It's an interesting video of LA, but the camera angle is odd and the YouTube quality is dismal. It would sure be fun to ride along the beach on an ebike!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2089&v=NWaIhqTj5NE