US Manufactured Ebikes; Cost/Benefit Discussion.

[Mr. Coffee]

Just a few observations.

First off, even if you could or wanted to "bring back manufacturing" to the United States that wouldn't necessarily bring back very many jobs. If you are building a new factory from scratch you would logically build a state-of-the-art factory, and in 2018 that means it would be highly automated. Also, likely future manufacturing technologies are likely to be even less labor-intensive.

Second, the real problem in the United States is that we don't have an industrial policy, and those in government who aren't viscerally opposed to the very idea don't have a clue as to how to go about it. If we were being rational adults about this we would identify what are America's strengths (e.g. CPU architectures, systemology, &c) and what technologies are likely to be critical in the future (e.g. nanotechnology, genetic engineering, &c) and come up with a program that maintains our lead where we have one and makes sure we are in the very top tier for those future technologies. Unfortunately, our elected officials aren't rational adults -- so we need to fix that problem first before we can even start on anything else.

Third, and finally, Chinese labor costs are not a monolithic thing. For certain kinds of skilled labor you would pay nearly as much in China as you would in the States. I've worked with companies and products where it was cheaper to manufacture products in other countries despite China's nominal labor cost advantage. That actually generalizes -- nobody can be good at everything. The key is to figure out what we are good at and make sure that niche is big enough and lucrative enough that everyone can eat well and afford an e-bike.

 

[harryS]

Ahh, the good old days. First job out of college in 1970 was in a plant that held over 5000 workers on two shifts. I'd walk to the cafeteria and hear the clatter of punch presses and the whir of air driven screwdrivers. Families worked there. Maybe grandpa was still on the line, some kids got education and worked white collar jobs, others just stepped in out of high school or the Army.. I watched that place shrink and eventually torn down to become a huge shopping mall. Meanwhile, I moved on and had to keep learning new things to stay employed. The past is gone. The reality is the emerging economies are killing us.

Keeping coal alive by stifling solar/wind and any alternative energies? That is just so stupid. Ten years from now, we'll be competing with countries that have trivial energy costs relative to us.

 

[Gator]

Ahh, the good old days. First job out of college in 1970 was in a plant that held over 5000 workers on two shifts. I'd walk to the cafeteria and hear the clatter of punch presses and the whir of air driven screwdrivers. Families worked there. Maybe grandpa was still on the line, some kids got education and worked white collar jobs, others just stepped in out of high school or the Army.. I watched that place shrink and eventually torn down to become a huge shopping mall. Meanwhile, I moved on and had to keep learning new things to stay employed. The past is gone. The reality is the emerging economies are killing us.

Keeping coal alive by stifling solar/wind and any alternative energies? That is just so stupid. Ten years from now, we'll be competing with countries that have trivial energy costs relative to us.

I wish we could have kept some of that solar panel production here in the US.

 

[Diarmuid]

Those saying manufacturing in the US doesn't work number wise are off as there are many manufacturers here in the states. Take example Precor. They manufacture the majority of their stuff here in the US in the Seattle and NC areas. Even the electronics are US made in Everett, WA. Almost nothing is made out of country on their commercial products.

Another example are firearm manufacturers who pretty much produce everything in country, mostly for importation laws.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Just out of curiosity, there are many American companies that make high-quality bike bags. These bags are typically two to three times as expensive as the cheaper options you would find on Amazon. How many of you have actually purchased any of those bags?

I'll give three examples:

Swift Industries

North St Bags

Bedrock Bags

All of them make very high quality products, but I'd be very surprised if more than a tiny minority of posters here have actually purchased any of their products.

I am active in the lightweight backpacking and distance hiking world, and there are many great companies manufacturing great gear right here in these United States. Although there are a few items that I can't seem to find from US manufacturers.

I have a deep suspicion of those who advocate purchasing American products who will not put their money where their words are.

 

[ebikemom]

...These bags are typically two to three times as expensive as the cheaper options ...

It used to be consumer products of all types were all quite expensive (relative to the consumer's income), because most things were not imported but were made with the same dollars and same economy in which we were living. In terms of clothing and accessories, when I was a kid (40-50 years ago), it was cheaper to make our own clothing than to purchase it--we saved the price of all of that labor. Anything we buy that's made by folks living in our same economy is going to be expensive. That's how it used to be. People have gotten used to very cheap prices and, as a result, used to accumulating a lot of possessions. Look how small the closets are in older homes. Why? Stuff was expensive. People had fewer things, took great care of them, mended worn items, etc.

Americans don't want made-in-the-USA or they would purchase made-in-the-USA. Even our president who talks big about made-in-the-USA did not make his own branded suits, ties, furniture, etc. with US companies, but had them made overseas.

 

[Dewey]

Isn't the Grin Tech all-axle ebike motor made in Vancouver? Grin assemble their LiGo battery pack using LG MG1 cells but I'm unsure if the cells are manufactured in LG Chem's Holland, MI, plant, their BMS, controller, Cycle Analyst computer, and Cycle Satiator battery charger, are manufactured in Asia. Lithium cells for automotive applications are produced in Michigan by LG Chem, A123 Systems, and Johnson Controls, and there is the Tesla giga-factory manufacturing 18650 cells in Nevada, Dakota Lithium make 12v LiFePO4 packs, and All Cell in Chicago make lithium packs for ebikes. There are the high power electric motorcycle manufacturers like Zero, Alta, & Lightning. A bunch of steel bicycle frame makers like Soma and Rodriguez, and a few ebike shops like California Ebike and Grin Tech making specialty ebike parts like motor mounts and torque arms. Astroflight manufacture brushless electric motors for remote control vehicle and aerial drone applications in Irvine, CA, and a small number of DIY enthusiasts have used reduction gearboxes with these fast spinning motors on ebikes. Is that it for N American ebike component manufacturers now that Bionx Canada have stopped production? Assembly lines using imported components include Prodecotech in FL, GenZe in MI, Day 6 in IA, BM Ebikes in CA, Worksman in NY manufacture steel frames and send them to Electric Bike Technologies in PA to add the motor, eVox ebikes are assembled in Quebec but are the Dyname motor and frames made in Canada? Any others?

 

[Dewey]

We simply do not have the infrastructure in place for that type of manufacturing and it is unrealistic to think it could be done in a timely or affordable manner in a couple of years time. Same thoughts for manufacturing lithium battery cells. We are not even a primary source for the ores needed to make the cells.

Very true, the German government is investing in a company TerraE to build a lithium cell giga-factory in Germany to produce the new gen 21700 cells for ebike battery packs, the published timeline suggest government financed strategic investments of 5 billion euros and a 10 year time frame to build up to planned production of 38 GigaWh by 2028.

 

[rich c]

Isn't the Grin Tech all-axle ebike motor made in Vancouver? Grin assemble their LiGo battery pack using LG MG1 cells but I'm unsure if the cells are manufactured in LG Chem's Holland, MI, plant, their BMS, controller, Cycle Analyst computer, and Cycle Satiator battery charger, are manufactured in Asia. Lithium cells for automotive applications are produced in Michigan by LG Chem, A123 Systems, and Johnson Controls, and there is the Tesla giga-factory and Dakota Lithium make 12v LifePo4 packs for ebikes. There are the high power electric motorcycle manufacturers like Zero. And a bunch of steel bicycle frame makers. Astroflight manufacture brushless electric motors for remote control vehicle and aerial drone applications in Irvine, CA, and a small number of DIY enthusiasts have used reduction gearboxes with these fast spinning motors on ebikes. Is that it for N American manufacturers now that Bionx Canada have stopped production? Assembly lines using imported components include Prodecotech in FL, GenZe in MI, Day 6 in IA, BM Ebikes in CA, Worksman in NY manufacture steel frames and send them to Electric Bike Technologies in PA to add the motor, eVox ebikes are assembled in Quebec but are the Dyname motor and frames made in Canada? Any others?

Grin Tech is made in Canada, $700+

 

[Gator]

Just out of curiosity, there are many American companies that make high-quality bike bags. These bags are typically two to three times as expensive as the cheaper options you would find on Amazon. How many of you have actually purchased any of those bags?

I'll give three examples:

Swift Industries

North St Bags

Bedrock Bags

All of them make very high quality products, but I'd be very surprised if more than a tiny minority of posters here have actually purchased any of their products.

I am active in the lightweight backpacking and distance hiking world, and there are many great companies manufacturing great gear right here in these United States. Although there are a few items that I can't seem to find from US manufacturers.

I have a deep suspicion of those who advocate purchasing American products who will not put their money where their words are.

I appreciate the links to American made products above. I especially like the Swift panniers. This will likely be my next purchase. As far as having this discussion and "Deep Suspicion." I am not sure I am worthy of your trust, but as a general rule I investigate my American made options. I can't claim to be a 100% American made consumer zealot, but this is an important conversation and everyone is welcome to comment.