Upgrade a new bike?

The only thing I find "strange" here is is some "expert" claiming his favorite bars are the only right choice.....
Companies such as Specialized have been in the market for the last 40 years. They created technologies that govern the worldwide bicycle market. If Specialized engineer says "this e-bike shall have a 680 mm flat handlebar with such and such rise" it means he's using the accumulated wisdom of the company.

Now comes one Al Hicks and he is smarter than Specialized even if he has never designed and built any bike.
 
They created technologies that govern the worldwide bicycle market.
They designed 3 frame sizes with assigned components to probably fit 5 - 95% male, and the 3 sizes for 5 to 95% female. Plenty of room for the need for customization between sizes and at extremes.

In a past life, at a manufacturer of off road equipment, I was the 95% male and female coworker was the 5% male go/no-go dummies for cab design.
 
Nothing wrong with making changes, but I'd make sure you're going in eyes open to ensure the end result is what you really wanted, both in functionality as well as $.
I've owned over 100 cars at this point, only ever buying brand new once, and had several thousand $ worth of mods ready to go and install before it hit 1K miles. I wouldn't do that on every vehicle, and by comparison some other vehicles were literally just maintenance/tuneup, but as always YMMV.

Why not an RM Altitude?
 
I believe every bike/car/truck/locomotive can be upgraded. Find what you like, get the best thing that has the things you want, then go from there.
Ignore the fanboi's that are nice, but are set in their ways.
If you found something you like and is close, then go for it.
If you are looking to upgrade the electrical right away, that may be a time to look at something different that matches closer.
In the end, it is your money and your ride. Do with it the way you see fit.

Edit: Side note. My new ebike comes in tomorrow. I already have pedals ready to replace. Going to see what the seat/grips are like before replacing. I have 2 other ebikes; My himiway is heavily modified and i will be pulling parts from it for the new ebike. The surface604 is not being touched after modifications because I am keeping it and like the setup.
 
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I cannot fully agree to the above.
  • Yes, very expensive bikes or e-bikes are delivered with no pedals. In case it is an unaware customer, the store throws the cheap pedals in or recommends the appropriate ones.
  • A good brand delivers a saddle that matches the intended type of the bike. If it is a sporty bike, a sporty saddle can be found on the bike. It can only be attributed to the buyer unawareness that the rider instantly replaces a very good saddle for the intended bike use with a "comfortable" chair that is not good for pedalling, creates even more pain in the butt, and the groin abrasion is inevitable.
  • No real reason to swap the handlebars. If a given bike type has come with wide flat handlebars, that's because of the intended use of the bike. If someone immediately replaces the stock bars with curved ones (or Jones H-bars) it simply means the user has bought a wrong type of the bike for their purposes (the user should have bought a city bike or a beach cruiser).
  • Fenders and racks? I'd say Specialized equips their e-bikes with quality fenders and racks, again, for the intended purpose. Moreover. Specialized rear fender, rack and tail-light are nicely integrated. I have no issue to carry heavy grocery shopping on either of those racks. Were I going on a randonneur?...
I have never met an experienced cyclist who was not extremely particular about how they perch their fundament upon their ride. And once people find a saddle that works they tend not to experiment very much (and arguably they could experiment more). And yes, different geometry and riding positions imply different saddles. But if you are on your third gravel bike or fifth mountain bike or ninth road bike you probably know what saddle will work, and probably have one in your garage.

You might also be surprised to know that there are drop bar mountain bikes and flat bar gravel bikes. And some companies will sell you the bike with the choice of handlebars and they adjust the geometry with spacers on the headset and during bike fit (because of course the reach will necessarily be different). Also, even within drop bars and flat bars there are an incredible number of varieties of shapes and sizes, and those small tweaks can make the difference between a bike that becomes an instrument of torture on a 100km ride and a bike that is still sweet to ride during a brevet.

A "no s#!t" story: during my recent bike fit for my new bike, at the start I commented that I thought the handlebars needed to be about an inch wider. After getting on the trainer and pedaling for about a minute, he said, "more like two inches wider". So I'm looking into that right now.

There is also this crazy product which lets you install "grips" on your drop bars. I'm probably going to get some when I upgrade my handlebars.

It is interesting hearing debates about drop bars versus flat bars. Drop bar fanboys argue that you have more hand positions, which limits fatigue during long rides. The flat bar crowd argues that while drop bars have more hand positions, the flat bar position is more comfortable and natural. Both of them have a point.

As for fenders, if you live and ride in the sunny, dry southwest you probably don't need or want fenders. If you live in the soggy, muddy southeast the stock fenders on nearly every bike are a pathetic joke and will gum up and foul up in a very few miles. Or if you ride on the rainy side of the Cascades in the Pacific Northwest on all-weather glacier debris those basic fenders won't provide sufficient coverage. So for a lot of riders in a lot of places they are either wearing the terrain they are riding through or purchasing halfway decent fenders.

On racks, until you've used a decent double-decker rack like a Tubus Cosmo you don't know what you are missing. Because you can mount the panniers low or high you have a lot more control over the center of gravity and the stability and rideability of your bike while carrying a load. And when you mount the panniers low you can easily strap (or unstrap) stuff from the top of the rack without struggling with the panniers. Honestly very hard to go back to the generic no-name racks most bikes come with after you've used one. And that Tubus rack will easily outlast your bike. I can easily make similar criticisms about most stock front racks, with the added observation that a lot of them are unsafe even if very lightly loaded. And I've lost count of how many beefy-looking stock front racks on bikes have a chintzy 3kg weight limit.
 
Companies such as Specialized have been in the market for the last 40 years. They created technologies that govern the worldwide bicycle market. If Specialized engineer says "this e-bike shall have a 680 mm flat handlebar with such and such rise" it means he's using the accumulated wisdom of the company.

Now comes one Al Hicks and he is smarter than Specialized even if he has never designed and built any bike.
And further, he could give a damn about anything "Specialized" has to say about what his riding position should look like..... let alone some "expert" that thinks I should care about anything "Specialized"....

Point being, for MANY reasons I'm not going to get into here, I'll never own a Specialized bike, and have little interest in even riding one. If this is a limiting factor regarding this conversation, which I thought included ALL bike manf's, my apologies.....
 
Companies such as Specialized have been in the market for the last 40 years. They created technologies that govern the worldwide bicycle market. If Specialized engineer says "this e-bike shall have a 680 mm flat handlebar with such and such rise" it means he's using the accumulated wisdom of the company.

Sorry Stefan, but people come in lots of different shapes and sizes. There is no way any one particular dimension a handlebar is going to be "one size fits all." The best you could hope for is "one size doesn't cause suffering in most people."
 
You're asking for aching butt, hand numbness, and assorted pains related to the spine nerves compression.

Bike-fitting - yes. However, isn't it strange the only handlebar choice for -- specifically - a road bike is a wider or narrower handlebar? Now fancy people replacing the drop bar with flat handlebars on a road bike (hardly doable). If that holds true why do people believe replacing flat handlebars with curved ones would make their bike fit better? Most of them do that without even a single thought of professional bike fitting!

I need to ride more upright because I had a cervical fusion and have another disk in my neck that is herniated. I do not want to ride an upright bike. I am 64 and have been riding road bikes since I was thirteen and have worked as a mechanic in a bike shop when I was a teenager. My first real racer was a Peugeot PX-10 that weighed 19 pounds and it had tubular tires that are glued to the rims and a Reynolds 531 frame. It cost $350 back in 1970. It was the bike that just about every professional racer used and other companies like Le June, Gitane and others copied. I had it for 40 years until I could not find French treaded parts for and the crank area started to wobble due to metal fatigue from the thousands of miles I put on it. I am very experienced, probably much more so than you. I just need to sit a little more upright so my neck is not flexed as much. Having a short reach pair of drop handlebars works for me. I know how to fit a bike. I love the Civante but unfortunately I was between sizes. I chose the larger size over the medium frame (they do not come rated in CM's for frame size, only S, M and L. I put on a shorter stem with a 35 degree rise and short reach drop handlebars with a 2cm rise. It works for me and is more comfortable and ergonomic. By the way, you cannot put straight bars on the Civante because there is an issue with trying to find hydraulic brake levers for the disk brakes. Flat bar hydraulic brake levers are not compatible with drop bar hydraulic brakes. I would have had to change the whole system. And besides. I still ride in the drops. I got the bike so I can keep up with my son who can cruise at 22mph. I have a flat bar bike and can cruise at 16mph. I can easily cruise at 24mph on my Civante.

By the way, I wear padded riding gloves, have double GEL handlebar tape, wear padded riding shorts and use a $150 seat. No issues with hand or butt numbness. There is less issue with hand numbness riding a little more upright. And I know when and how to get off my seat. I am not fully upright, just a more relaxed position. I am done!
 
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When comes to MTB quality of suspension makes all the difference and its not cheap to upgrade. Price difference between different spec levels not only gives you better suspension but also drivetrain, typically bigger battery, more powerful motor.
In end its cheaper to just pay extra upfront and go for higher spec model.

The suntour 100mm coil fork on most of bikes in your options is very average. For MTB air suspension is really minimum these days.

Checkout Moustache Xroad series if you are after trekking bike with some offroad capability. I'd be looking at the Xroad 5 or 7 for better forks, motor and drivetrains. Brakes could do with upgrade.
 
I cannot fully agree to the above.
  • Yes, very expensive bikes or e-bikes are delivered with no pedals. In case it is an unaware customer, the store throws the cheap pedals in or recommends the appropriate ones.
  • A good brand delivers a saddle that matches the intended type of the bike. If it is a sporty bike, a sporty saddle can be found on the bike. It can only be attributed to the buyer unawareness that the rider instantly replaces a very good saddle for the intended bike use with a "comfortable" chair that is not good for pedalling, creates even more pain in the butt, and the groin abrasion is inevitable.
  • No real reason to swap the handlebars. If a given bike type has come with wide flat handlebars, that's because of the intended use of the bike. If someone immediately replaces the stock bars with curved ones (or Jones H-bars) it simply means the user has bought a wrong type of the bike for their purposes (the user should have bought a city bike or a beach cruiser).
  • Fenders and racks? I'd say Specialized equips their e-bikes with quality fenders and racks, again, for the intended purpose. Moreover. Specialized rear fender, rack and tail-light are nicely integrated. I have no issue to carry heavy grocery shopping on either of those racks. Were I going on a randonneur?...
View attachment 153793
Did anyone say "randonneur"? :) Does a 208 km ride qualify?
I agree with Stefan here, most factory fenders give better coverage and more sturdy than aftermarket ones. I've fitted Jones bars to FS MTB to make it more comfortable for touring but wouldn't recommend them for MTBing. You can MTB with them it's not enjoyable more case of just getting through and offroad section than tearing it up.
 
I have never met an experienced cyclist who was not extremely particular about how they perch their fundament upon their ride. And once people find a saddle that works they tend not to experiment very much (and arguably they could experiment more). And yes, different geometry and riding positions imply different saddles. But if you are on your third gravel bike or fifth mountain bike or ninth road bike you probably know what saddle will work, and probably have one in your garage.

You might also be surprised to know that there are drop bar mountain bikes and flat bar gravel bikes. And some companies will sell you the bike with the choice of handlebars and they adjust the geometry with spacers on the headset and during bike fit (because of course the reach will necessarily be different). Also, even within drop bars and flat bars there are an incredible number of varieties of shapes and sizes, and those small tweaks can make the difference between a bike that becomes an instrument of torture on a 100km ride and a bike that is still sweet to ride during a brevet.

A "no s#!t" story: during my recent bike fit for my new bike, at the start I commented that I thought the handlebars needed to be about an inch wider. After getting on the trainer and pedaling for about a minute, he said, "more like two inches wider". So I'm looking into that right now.

There is also this crazy product which lets you install "grips" on your drop bars. I'm probably going to get some when I upgrade my handlebars.

It is interesting hearing debates about drop bars versus flat bars. Drop bar fanboys argue that you have more hand positions, which limits fatigue during long rides. The flat bar crowd argues that while drop bars have more hand positions, the flat bar position is more comfortable and natural. Both of them have a point.

As for fenders, if you live and ride in the sunny, dry southwest you probably don't need or want fenders. If you live in the soggy, muddy southeast the stock fenders on nearly every bike are a pathetic joke and will gum up and foul up in a very few miles. Or if you ride on the rainy side of the Cascades in the Pacific Northwest on all-weather glacier debris those basic fenders won't provide sufficient coverage. So for a lot of riders in a lot of places they are either wearing the terrain they are riding through or purchasing halfway decent fenders.

On racks, until you've used a decent double-decker rack like a Tubus Cosmo you don't know what you are missing. Because you can mount the panniers low or high you have a lot more control over the center of gravity and the stability and rideability of your bike while carrying a load. And when you mount the panniers low you can easily strap (or unstrap) stuff from the top of the rack without struggling with the panniers. Honestly very hard to go back to the generic no-name racks most bikes come with after you've used one. And that Tubus rack will easily outlast your bike. I can easily make similar criticisms about most stock front racks, with the added observation that a lot of them are unsafe even if very lightly loaded. And I've lost count of how many beefy-looking stock front racks on bikes have a chintzy 3kg weight limit.
Sorry Stefan, but people come in lots of different shapes and sizes. There is no way any one particular dimension a handlebar is going to be "one size fits all." The best you could hope for is "one size doesn't cause suffering in most people."
It is hard not to agree with you @Mr. Coffee, thank you.

If someone buys a totally wrong bike type for the intended purpose, and tries to change nature of that bike by mods, then the person is acting incorrectly. For instance: someone buys an FS e-MTB that is intended for the technical singletrack riding; the e-bike intentionally has very wide handlebars. What does the user do? He trims the bars or replaces them with the curved variety. Of course, you can do whatever you like with your own e-bike but do not claim the e-MTB has the wrong fit. It is the user who selects the wrong bike type for the intended purpose.

It is because an FS e-MTB is mostly ridden steep uphill in difficult terrain (rocks!) or standing on the pedals downhill at high speed -- with the seat dropped and the butt above the rear wheel. You need wide bars for good control downhill; you ride up a steep hill heavily bent on the bars not to fall backwards. Now the users wants to ride such e-bike on flat fire-roads or in the city. Wrong purpose! That's why SUV e-bikes have been invented. That's why a regular Joe would ride a Tero X not the Levo. You would not convert an FS e-MTB into the bike-packing touring e-bike either.

(And... We know pretty well what mud or sand or rain mean here in Poland).
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Back on the topic.
Stuart here cannot buy the model of the cross-country HT e-bike he fancies. His intention (before he has made a purchase) is to buy an entry-level e-bike model of given type and upgrade it by replacing the drive-train, adding the dropper post then possibly replacing the handlebars and perhaps adding the rack, fenders, well, a kickstand? At the same time he is showing a commuter e-bike from Haro Bikes as an alternative.

  • Tero 3.0, a barebone unequipped entry level XC e-bike is US$3,250
  • Tero X 4.0 (the same battery and motor) is an equipped SUV e-bike at US$4,500
  • Haro Bike, a commuter equipped e-bike is US$ 3,200
All what I want to say is upgrading an entry-level unequipped XC e-bike to SUV e-bike would cost far more than the US$1,250. There also is a question: What is the intended use of Stuart's future e-bike?
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@rtp: Rocky Mountain Altitude is not an e-bike.
 
All what I want to say is upgrading an entry-level unequipped XC e-bike to SUV e-bike would cost far more than the US$1,250. There also is a question: What is the intended use of Stuart's future e-bike?
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Yay!!!! FINALLY! Without this information recommending ANYTHING specific pretty tough to do with any accuracy....
 
When comes to MTB quality of suspension makes all the difference and its not cheap to upgrade. Price difference between different spec levels not only gives you better suspension but also drivetrain, typically bigger battery, more powerful motor.
In end its cheaper to just pay extra upfront and go for higher spec model.

The suntour 100mm coil fork on most of bikes in your options is very average. For MTB air suspension is really minimum these days.

Checkout Moustache Xroad series if you are after trekking bike with some offroad capability. I'd be looking at the Xroad 5 or 7 for better forks, motor and drivetrains. Brakes could do with upgrade.
Thanks for the suggestion. I've looked at Moustache before, they are above my $4k ceiling and weigh 60ish lbs. My goal, perhaps not achievable is to bike primarily without assist until the last miles home or until coming to that hill that just got steeper. In my late 70s I'm finding a dropper post would help too.
For some reason Stuart thinks he needs a hardtail XC e-bike.
My apologies to all for not defining my use case. I think I need a hardtail because that's what I've been riding for 20 years since I bought a Trek 6000 in the late 1990s to commute 6 miles through hilly city streets. It is also used for fun on the washboard gravel roads, paved pathways, some sharp loose gravel trails, some lite shopping. I'll do some rides with friends in the 20-30 mile range. Now in my late 70s, the hills have grown, the last miles have gotten longer, and the seat seems to stretch up when I try to get my foot over it. I'm 6'3" and 190# and am running with a hard $4k price before taxes.

I've riden more than a dozen bikes and come to like:
class 1 bikes since the battle lines on where ebikes can ride are not drawn yet;
removeable batteries in downtubes (Orbea Urrun and Kemen would have been sweet)- yeah, kinda camo the ebike ;
something weighing 50ish pounds that pedals light enough so I can bike rather than always have a motor on to compensate for a 55-60lb vehicle;
motor perhaps around 65Nm rather than too little 40-50Nm or 85-100Nm;
Deore 10 & 11 spd 11-46 cassettes have riden better and are easier on hills than Alivio 9 spd 11-36. RM's with Deore 12 spd 10-51 was pretty nice too;
bright displays with larger fonts that show cadence and even shift recommendations may just be a new novelty for me, but do help;
and boy after riding the RM Growler PowerPlay 30 with a dropper post, I know that will be on the next bike. (It's a shame RM doesnot have a better user interface to their controller.)

So none of the bikes I've riden have checked all the boxes or even most, tho I can see myself on almost any of them. Hence the question here about buying something as close as possible and moding out of the box. I do appreciate the input, and enjoy the side conversations. Perhaps I was to anal looking for something real close, only to recently realize that the perfect bike isn't there at my price point, but also LBSs that promised so much in the fall winter are now not able to perform, and no one has XL sizes for test rides.

Thanks all for your inputs.
 
Sounds like trekking bike is what you are after. Eg Moustache Xroad 2 or 3(10spd), Vado 4.0. Cube also have some.
These type of bikes are great tourer, commuters with option to do some light offroad eg forestry roads and gentle MTB tracks.
HT MTBs aren't ideal for touring as they put lot more weight on your hands.

The extras like decent factory mudguards, racks , kickstand, lights, all terrain tires all make a difference. Step through frames are definitely worth trying, lot easier to live with than crossbar. These days ebike versions are just as stiff.

For 20-30miles a 400wh battery will be fine if you don't spend all your time in turbo and 50nm will still climb just as easily as 65nm just slower in lower gear. On road 50nm with 9spd is fine its when you start offroad exploring that need lower gearing. The motor is one thing you can't upgrade on most ebikes.

Class 3 is only useful if commuting for leisure riding its not about getting from A-B as quickly as possible.
 
Sounds like trekking bike is what you are after. Eg Moustache Xroad 2 or 3(10spd), Vado 4.0. Cube also have some.
These type of bikes are great tourer, commuters with option to do some light offroad eg forestry roads and gentle MTB tracks.
HT MTBs aren't ideal for touring as they put lot more weight on your hands.

The extras like decent factory mudguards, racks , kickstand, lights, all terrain tires all make a difference. Step through frames are definitely worth trying, lot easier to live with than crossbar. These days ebike versions are just as stiff.

For 20-30miles a 400wh battery will be fine if you don't spend all your time in turbo and 50nm will still climb just as easily as 65nm just slower in lower gear. On road 50nm with 9spd is fine its when you start offroad exploring that need lower gearing. The motor is one thing you can't upgrade on most ebikes.

Class 3 is only useful if commuting for leisure riding its not about getting from A-B as quickly as possible.
Thanks for the suggestions Trevor. The Moustache Xroad sure looks interesting, but their website shows the closest LBS to be in CA- I'm in Colorado's Front Range. The Vado 4 SL I rode in the fall had no suspension, and the sales rep said the tires would have to be less than 700x50. I'm seeing a different set of specs now and will take a 2nd look. The Cubes I road, were nice, but heavy. Here are my over the top notes: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mCDF3GZcHtz2OCFvm9Us23TtE_xaUBdb0N4EUhLcOOc/edit?usp=sharing
 
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