Current Vado/Tero motors

[AvalancheRun]

Vado 3.0/Tero 3.0: Specialized 2.0E, 50Nm torque, custom tuned motor, 250W nominal
Vado 4.0/Tero 4.0: Specialized 2.0, 70Nm torque, custom tuned motor, 250W nominal
Vado 5.0/Tero 5.0/Tero 6.0 Specialized 2.2, 90Nm torque, custom tuned motor, 250W nominal

Are these all the same motor? I know the torque numbers are actually higher on the two lesser motors. Differences in noise?

I see also that the Tero 4.0X page says it's the 2.0E motor, whereas the Tero 4.0 page says 2.0. Must be a mistake.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I see also that the Tero 4.0X page says it's the 2.0E motor, whereas the Tero 4.0 page says 2.0. Must be a mistake.

Tero X ebikes are numbered +1. So Tero X 4 is a Tero 3 and Tero X 6 is a Tero 5.

Vado 3.0/Tero 3.0: Specialized 2.0E, 50Nm torque, custom tuned motor, 250W nominal
Vado 4.0/Tero 4.0: Specialized 2.0, 70Nm torque, custom tuned motor, 250W nominal
Vado 5.0/Tero 5.0/Tero 6.0 Specialized 2.2, 90Nm torque, custom tuned motor, 250W nominal

Real figures:
2.0E: 430 W or 68 Nm
2.0: 470 W or 75 Nm
2.2: 565 W or 90 Nm.
Each of them has also a different max Boost Factor, which is 4x for the 2.2.

Not the same motors.

 

[AvalancheRun]

Thanks for clearing that up

Ok, so my primary concern is noise level. I remember a Tero X 4.0, Vado 4.0, and Vado 5.0 as being completely fine.
Tested a Vado 3.0 today and it seemed a bit louder from the others.

Anyone know if this is true?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I tested a Tero 3.0 with the same motor and it seemed to be a little noisy at a low speed in a quiet environment. But when I rode a Tero X 4.0 (the same motor), I rode it fast and did not pay attention to any noise.

 

[Ebikelife72]

Thanks for clearing that up

Ok, so my primary concern is noise level. I remember a Tero X 4.0, Vado 4.0, and Vado 5.0 as being completely fine.
Tested a Vado 3.0 today and it seemed a bit louder from the others.

Anyone know if this is true?

My Vado 3IGH is a little louder than my Tero X5 and my wife’s Vado 4. It’s not much louder but is noticeable, not annoying, though.

 

[AvalancheRun]

My Vado 3IGH is a little louder than my Tero X5 and my wife’s Vado 4. It’s not much louder but is noticeable, not annoying, though.

Good to hear you and Stefan both noticed this too!

Are the Vado 4.0 and Tero X5 any different noise-wise?

 

[Ebikelife72]

Good to hear you and Stefan both noticed this too!

Are the Vado 4.0 and Tero X5 any different noise-wise?

Not that I've noticed. They're the same motor and are very quiet relative to other brands.

 

[Jahallen]

Tero X ebikes are numbered +1. So Tero X 4 is a Tero 3 and Tero X 6 is a Tero 5.


Real figures:
2.0E: 430 W or 68 Nm
2.0: 470 W or 75 Nm
2.2: 565 W or 90 Nm.
Each of them has also a different max Boost Factor, which is 4x for the 2.2.

Not the same motors.

What is the max boost factor for the 2.0 470W / 75Nm? TIA.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

What is the max boost factor for the 2.0 470W / 75Nm? TIA.

It's 320%.
2.0E: 280%
2.0: 320%
2.2: 410%.

It is also worthy noting the 1.2s motor I am using has the max boost factor of 320%, 85 Nm, 520 W. A very strong motor but limited on the boost factor.

 

[Watana Bob]

Stefan, I currently ride a gen 4 Bosch performance speed line bike and am considering a second bike. I like the Vado SL that you ride and am considering the Vado 5.0 SL. I ride 95% of the time in the tour setting never touching sport unless facing a really nasty hill or stiff headwind, in 4000 miles I have used turbo for 2 miles, that being said and considering that I have pretty weak legs affected by muscular dystrophy, in your opinion, do you think that this bike would work for me? Would the lighter weight and less torque offset a heavier (54#) bike with 85 nm motor, considering I am not using the full potential of this motor? My riding is mainly flat with a few 200 ft. hills in a typical 25 mile ride, winds are usually less than 10 mph. The Vado has a 12 speed cassette with a much larger range than my current ride which should make it a little better when facing hills or headwinds.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Bob, let me think about your question. The issue is I don't know what amount of assistance the Tour mode gives you.

 

[AvalancheRun]

Would the lighter weight and less torque offset a heavier (54#) bike with 85 nm motor, considering I am not using the full potential of this motor?

In my experience, no. A full size motor just has so much more power/torque than the best lightweight motors and lighter weight bike doesn’t do enough to offset that when things get really steep.

That said, maybe there is a dealer with the bike nearby a steep hill for testing?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

In my experience, no. A full size motor just has so much more power/torque than the best lightweight motors and lighter weight bike doesn’t do enough to offset that when things get really steep.

I'll have to agree to that. Bob, Vado SL might lack the power you need, and riding this e-bike model requires a way significant effort than a full power e-bike needs. The gearing is not everything you need to climb the hills, it is primarily the power that allows climbing at a safe speed. Two examples:

• A full power, 3.2x/520 W e-bike can be ridden at as low as 15/20% (0.48x rider's leg amplification, motor power limit of 104 W) pretty successfully on the flats. To achieve a similar ride comfort on a Vado SL, you need SL 55/55% (0.99x boost, motor power limited to 132 W). It sounds strange but that's how my legs perceive these things. Vado SL requires more workout from the rider and is a way slower e-bike than the full power one. (I think the full power e-bike provides a way more assistance in the low speed region!)
• There's a relatively short 10% climb in my province (the steepest hill we have!) I can climb it with an ease and quickly on my full power e-bike. However, doing the same on a Vado SL is, like, a survival game for me. I need to go full SL Turbo, low gearing makes my legs spin, and the climbing speed is dangerously low!

That said, maybe there is a dealer with the bike nearby a steep hill for testing?

That's a very good piece of advice! I would not buy my Vado SL without a demo ride; and I knew I would not be expected to climb any significant hill on the lightweight e-bike!

 

[BlackHand]

TLDR= what he said ^

I think Bosch tour mode defaults to 150% assist and sport is 225%, at least on my older bike. It's possible that is mapped differently on smart system bikes.

Roughly speaking the Bosch maxes out at about 2.5x the watts that the SL1.1 can put out if you go by the mfgr specs(600w vs 240w). IIRC the Bosch probably actually peaks north of 700w given its 85nm rating. So if you were able to run the SL at the same assist as your Bosch - it would be a custom tune somewhere btw sport and turbo on the SL - you would max out the assist at 160w from you.

160x1.5=240=max electrical assist from SL1.1

I'd guess the 20lb weight difference might make about .5 mph difference on a 10% hill but minimal difference in speed on the flats.

It all comes down to how many watts you can/want to input and how much slower you are willing to go. Something I wrestle with while considering the same move to a lighter low power ebike. In my case, I am used to using higher assist and speeds as my work commutes are time limited during the school year and I'm finding it harder to go slower at lower assists on recreational rides.

(Edit: apparently I forgot to hit post an hour ago. So whate they said^)

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Just to correct you @BlackHand a little. The Bosch motor you mentioned has up to 700 W of electrical power but it is 520 W mechanical power (back-calculated from the torque). SL 1.1 motor has 303 W electrical power, it is 240 W mechanical.

If the Bosch motor defaults to 150% in the Tour Mode, then the SL 1.1 maxes out at 180%. Literally taking these data, the Assist (Boost Factor) of the Bosch motor is 150/180 = SL 1.1 83%. Bob would need to set the SL 1.1 assistance to at least 80% assist to make the boost equal to the Bosch Tour mode!

Now, power-wise. SL 1.1 motor at 100% power is only 240/520 = 46% of the peak power of the specific Bosch motor you mentioned.
----------
Where @Watana Bob thinks he under-uses the Bosch motor capabilities, he is unaware riding a Vado SL at a similar performance would be at some 80/80% available assistance of the Specialized lightweight motor! Which would be very hard on the battery.

 

[Watana Bob]

Thank you guys for your thoughts on this. Stefan I will definitely try to track down a dealer to get a test ride before deciding to purchase. Right now I'm in the day dreaming stage. I don't mind going slower, it hurts less when I crash . In the winter months, on an analog on fluid trainer, I only average about 90 watts, on the kiox it varies between 75 and 120, so I am not putting out much power. I'll probably wait until the new Creo with the 1.2 motor is in LBS so that I can compare them, also I wouldn't mind test riding something with the Bosch SX motor. Im just getting tired of lifting my 54# bike and the thought of shedding close to 20# is appealing. And as stated before, where I ride is predominantly flat with few low hills, in 25 miles I will only climb 800-1000 feet.

 

[BlackHand]

@Stefan Mikes Bosch specifies max output as 600w mechanical. That seems to match what emtb mag found in their motor roundup tests.

(Note this is the CX, which we can assume is basically the same drive unit as the Speed motor Bob has aside from assist maps which is irrelevant here since the tests were conducted at full power)

We also tested the motor in the lab at the renowned Velotech institute, where we found out the following: in Turbo mode, the rider only has to produce between 170 and 200 Watts under their own steam (depending on cadence) for the motor to reach its 600 Watt peak power. However, if you pedal harder, the motor doesn’t produce any more power above this point. Coincidentally, this corresponds roughly to the 340 % maximum pedal assistance stated by Bosch. In purely mathematical terms, when producing 176 watts with your legs, the motor multiplies your effort by 3.4 times, which adds up to a total of 600 watts.

Bosch Performance Line CX - in our big 2023 ebike motor group test

The Bosch Performance Line CX is the top dog among the motor systems of the E-MTB world and a true all-rounder.

ebike-mtb.com

Yeah, I wished they posted the actual data, but you can understand that they probably would never get access to review units again if they published a full table of every motor's actual output.

They did post this where you can see the electrical output was measured at approx 740w(my eyeball guess) which would fit with 600w mechanical.
@Watana Bob the cadence you like to ride at might impact which drive unit suits you better. If you ride down in the 60-70rpm range you wouldn't see much difference between the SX and the SL1.2 in terms of power.

 

[Watana Bob]

Thanks BlackHand, yes i typically pedal with a cadence of 70. That is an interesting graph that you showed, I dont think that my Performance Line Speed motor has such a steep line to max wattage.

 

[BlackHand]

Thanks BlackHand, yes i typically pedal with a cadence of 70. That is an interesting graph that you showed, I dont think that my Performance Line Speed motor has such a steep line to max wattage.

That graph is with the bikes in Turbo mode so they can find where the bikes max out their power. Since you don't use turbo (nor do I) you're not bumping up against the power ceiling like that.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

@BlackHand: The industry standard between major mid-drive motor manufacturers is Power = Torque * 6.28 rad/s (60 rpm). Yamaha and Brose 85 Nm motors have the rated peak power of 520 W (meaning the actual torque is 82.8 Nm). The actual 90 Nm motor (Specialized 2.2) has the peak power of 565 W. If anyone says the Bosch motor has bigger mechanical peak power then the torque should be a way higher.